Although, I am ordained as an Evangelist/Missionary, my views are very different than many women in ministry in that, I do not think God intended or has called women to be as PASTORS over a church. I'm not speaking about His call on women in ministry or the spreading of the gospel, because there are many examples of women in ministry in the Old and New Testament.
My view and reasoning, is based on what is in Ephesians chapter5, and God's setup of the original family in the beginning with Adam and Eve over the garden (home) which is like unto the church. He put man in charge of the garden, just as he put man in charge of the home.
On the other hand, I feel, if there is not a man to be in this position, and a woman minister is available, she is able to stand in until a man is there to take over. I base this on Genesis chapter 29, wherein Raechel is recorded as being the first woman shepherdess tending sheep, up UNTIL Jacon came , then she turned it over to him. Same principle...
God has an order of roles and postions for the man and the woman, and the unity of marriage is compared and symbolic to the church. And just as He never intended nor purposed in the beginning nor called or placed women to be heads of households, He never called or place a woman head of His church.
When the man is out of place, it is reason for the woman to take the lead and be head of her household, BUT, this was not in God's original painting of the family. When a man and woman are married they are one therefore, if the man is the pastor of a church, would it not go to reason that his wife is co-pastor along side of him? Therefore, she would be UNDER his covering yet, she still does not have authority OVER her husband OR the church. She is only CO-pastor with him.Just as she would be co-head of the household along side of her husband in the home.
What your thoughts about women who have the title of PASTOR over the church?
Do you think the SBC is wrong for their actions in this case?
Baptists to Cut Ties with Ga. Church Over Female Pastor
By Audrey Barrick|Christian Post Reporter
A more than 95-year-old church in Atlanta may be ousted from the Southern Baptist Convention over a woman pastor.
The Rev. Mimi Walker has been serving as co-pastor at Druid Hills Baptist Church with her husband, the Rev. Graham Walker, since 2003. But earlier this month, leaders of the Georgia Baptist Convention recommended cutting ties with the local congregation.
"It seems sad that they decided to go backwards in time," Mimi Walker told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I'm not sure what the value is of trying to go back in time when women were held in subservience."
According to the Southern Baptist Convention's 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, the office of pastor is "limited to men as qualified by Scripture."
In keeping with the confession statement, the state convention voted on March 16 to declare Druid Hills "not a cooperating church."
It added, "The GBC has never been opposed to women serving in ministry positions other than pastor," according to Associated Baptist Press.
This is the second time the Georgia Baptist Convention has moved toward severing ties with a local church over a female pastor. Last year, the convention voted to end its relationship with First Baptist Church in Decatur over the congregation's decision to bring a woman to the pulpit. Julie Pennington-Russell became senior pastor of First Baptist in 2007.
"I�ve seen women in the ministry and worked with women in Presbyterian and Methodist churches," Walker told AJC. "They are moving forward in the process of keeping women involved in the ministry and moving toward equality.
"Our disagreement is related to how you interpret Scripture."
Amid ongoing conflicts over female pastors, some Southern Baptist leaders have made clarifications to what they believe.
Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said the Baptist Faith and Message does not state that "women are to be subservient to men." They are of equal worth before God, he stated earlier.
And though women are gifted for service in the church, Land says the New Testament teaches that "a woman is not to usurp authority over the man" and thus women are not to serve as pastors.
The Georgia Baptist Convention, which has roughly 3,600 churches and is one of 41 state conventions throughout the country, will vote in November on the recommendation to sever ties.
Man...this is getting heated...lots of assumptions getting thrown around...and it's a little scary over the amount of disregard some are showing toward the bible...just sayin'...I don't think we get to choose which part of the bible to follow...and I'm pretty sure it's clear about this. I believe it's only because we live in a sinful world, and I believe men and women will go back to being equal after sin is gone... but...women are not supposed to be the leaders of the church. That's what the bible says. From genesis to revelation. I feel kinda bad for "semi-agreeing" with Walter...because I never have liked his "presentation" methods...but I believe it's what the bible says, not because I'm a "man". And you even have to remember what church I belong to...'cuz we believe we had a "prophet" as one of the founders of our church...a female prophet. Women are definitely used by God...which is obvious in the bible...and women don't have to be "silent" in churches any more then men do(read mwah's previous post)...but for whatever reason, God set men up to be the leaders of the church and the family.
You said: "Listen, my friend, sorry, but I didn't spend 4 yrs. in seminary for nothing getting my Masters in Biblical Studies, and if the Lord is willing I will get my doctrate in December, graduating with a 4.0 .... "
WALTER: Gee...you know...that sounds a little prideful....don't Ya think? When a person tries to elevate themselves like you are doing it is very telling about that person. Do you honestly think that a man made degree makes you better qualified or understand the scriptures better than anyone else? Not on your life Sister. Wisdom comes from God, not man. There are many seminaries that teach False Doctrines so if a person gets a "Masters" or "PhD" from a seminary that teaches false teachings; bad theology, just means they have a degree in teaching bad theology. I wouldn't go "Bragging" about that if I were you. It really does not help you.
OH, SNAP! WALTER, WALTER! This thread IS NOT about you or me...
Why didn't you post what you said, in order to place my comment in context.
WALTER:
"Ella first, you continue to not give sound exegesis of the passage in question. Before I begin, let me give you some information that will help your understanding of what an Elder, Bishop and Pastor means..."
ELLA; Walter,... "I didn't spend 4 yrs. in seminary for nothing getting my Masters in Biblical Studies, and if the Lord is willing I will get my doctorate in December, graduating with a 4.0."( meaning I didn't need YOU to help me understand or exegesis scripture or anything else)
Therefore, I ask YOU where is the pride and boasting in my statement? Since you promote and exalt yourself to be such an expert in the exegesis of scripture, why didn't you use those same principles to interpret my statemnet for a better understanding and meaning of what I said?
My complete post can be found on page 4, if you should have need to re-read it. Maybe you should have diagram what I said for a clearer interpretaion.
I say to you...
TO EXEGESIS OR TO EISEGESIS... this is the question. I rather see that you are very good in the latter (EISEGESIS) of scripture and what others say.
BUT AN EXEGETE YOU ARE NOT!...
And Since I'm not Jesus, I refuse to come down to your level and comment on your statement about my education, because it is apparant you don't have a clue. I am led to believe and know from what you speak ... its an inner thing!Much to do about nothing, except YOU:zzzz:
I will now go to my seat, and be in obedience as Paul has instructed women to do, and KEEP SILENT.:ROFL::yay::yay::rocknroll::bow::bow: thank you very much, Elvis has left the building...
I report, you decide which you do have more knowledge in EXEGESIS OF A PASSAGE OR TEXT... OR EISEGESIS OF A PASSAGES OR TEXT??? I REPORT, YOU DECIDE BETWEEN THE TWO, which one do you have more knowledge in doing? I would guess the latter... EISEGESIS sounds more of your doing.:rocknroll:
I loooovv-ve yooouuuu,:zzzz::hearts::rolleyes::toomuch:
Sometimes in the bible you cannot read so deeply into everything that is said.
Somethings that are said are more spiritual than literal. Somethings in the bible are just significant of the times they lived in and the laws they lived under, and somethings are just how that person felt relating to the cercumstances around him like the book of ecclesiastics which was a lot of King Solomans own personal feelings toward things.
for instance the bible has many passages on slavery, the isrealities took slaves, and even in the new testament it was not condemed. So are we to believe that slavery is from god, no. Although SOME people use this to excuse slavery and the unequal treatment of certain racial groups, we can't twist gods word.
Miriam was a prophetess
Exodus 15:20
20 Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing.
Debroah was even the chief judge over all of isreal before they even had kings, god himself anointed her.
Judges 4:4-5
4 Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. 5She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided.
even it the new testamenat there were women prophets
Luke 2:36-38
36 There was also a prophet, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped there with fasting and prayer night and day. 38At that moment she came, and began to praise God and to speak about the child to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.
so how can we say that women can't preach gods word. Jesus never stated this and some of Jesus biggest suporters were women i would think anywoman who absorbed as much word as those women did from Jesus himself would be more than qulified to have any position she wants in the church.
that's what I meant by different ways to use the bible a few pages before. For some reason Walter didn't want to answer me. It goes into the same direction as what Ella said with Eisegesis and Exegesis.
It is true, the bible does in no way prohibit slavery, at least not on its text surface. So some people, guided by Satan could abuse the scripture to use it as an excuse for practicing slavery. They did Eisegesis, and they could even say they stick to the bible as there are slaves in the OT.
So if you stick to the surface of the bibe text you can go wrong direction it seems, or we have to say that slavery was okay with God (but then, how to love the next if he is my slave?).
If you stick to the surface, you will always find the rules of ancient society, this is why women have lower positions then men in the bible. This is why there is no prohibition of slavery on the text surface. The bible text is intelligent. It does not touch and attack the society rues directly, but brakes them subversively.
Read the letter to Philemon, what Paul asks of Philemon about his slave. In the end, there would still be the label "slave" to Onesimus, but the love Paul commands Philemon to have against Onesimus will not enable Philemon to treat Onesimus like a slave any more. Paul brakes up the rues without touching the society rules. But if we miss this, which is done in scripture again and again, we miss a great deal, so also in other issues as the role of women and men. If you read Eph 5, startigwith verse 21, we have a hierarchy that puts the man over the woman and Christ over the man. But there is also the other way round: In terms of love the woman is first, than the man, then Christ.
So how can anyone who has a say but is subdued in love command anything that is not in accordance with the love? How can a man tel a woman what to do if the woman doesn't want to, doesn't like to. If there is love, he will rather do it himself than press it on the woman, right? After all, they are both the same before God, and the love brakes up the society rule of women being subdued to men.
This way the bible could get the message through, but also be in accordance with society rules, so people back then didn't see the bible as morally wrong.
But as 2000 years have passed since then, our societies have been influenced long time by the bible. We have amost abolished slavery in western countries, we care for the weak and sick and don't let them starve etc. So the society rules conserved in the bible don't fit morally to our society any more. But the message within, that broke up the ancient society rules and established a big part of the freedom and godlyness we have today (in some places things also got worse, I know), this message is still valid and will ever be. And it is able to brake up even our society rules for the better, like in the question of abortion and such.
But for that we have to seek for the message and pray to God to reveal it to us completely, and not just tick to the letter and the surface of text that goes in the first view along the lines of ancient society rules with all those godless implications like slavery and suppression of women (without the love her ike Jesus loves you part):devil:
So in short, what I want to say: Seek for the message, not for the letter. The writers of the bible where clever peope and inspired by God, so the bible is not an easy thing to deal with and if not read in love and th spirit, we cannot get it right I guess.:angeldevil:
Friends I also used Deborah as an example of a female leader and was slammed quite hard.God makes the rules not us. wha tis the problem some have with answering to a woman? Eh? is it pride or just stupid thinking.
Friends god changes the rules so much that when a certain man did not listen and he wanted to curse Israel God had to use a donkey to speak gods word.:ROFL:
I would rather have a woman speak gods word than a donkey.If it is a donkey then it would be recorded and the whole world would know I was to stubborn to listen.:dancingp:
Maybe god will use my cats. My oldest cat is really smart.Maybe he will write a book called St.Casper :applause:
Love your sister and submit to christ.The word is filled with many fine female leaders.
Words from St.Casper the cat; If you do not follow Jesus did he not say even the rocks will worship me.Us cats will never let that happen. Thus is the word of St.casper the cat to the brothers and sisters who are fighting.Kiss and make up.
This isn't about God using women, or speaking through women. There were women leaders in the bible. Women prophets. There is no question in my mind that women are used by God. But when it comes to leadership in the church or family, because of sin...God put men at the head. Whatever God's reasons were for doing it...they should be good enough for us. I think He's a little wiser. Men and women are just different...and just because a lot of men are abusing or failing at their God-given role lately, it does not mean that women need to step in a "usurp authority", not only because it's not the right way...but also because it leaves another God-given role half-empty. Anyway...it's a mess, but...Follow The Bible. It's always safe doing that. Whats ironic is...what if the roles were reversed and women had the God-given role to lead spiritually, and men were saying that it didn't matter anymore? Just seems like pride is more of a motivating factor here than the will of God....because, at least to me(a man:laugh:), God's word is pretty clear about it.
God said a woman is to submit to her husband in marrage alone, and that the husband is the head of the household, but in this way she is to submit to her husband ONLY. God says nothing at all about women not being able to have leadership positions in the church nothing at all. Deborah was leader and Judge over all of isreal, so how can god say a woman can't minister in the church if she can lead a country.
Once again, women do not want to be the leader and take the place of men. But do not try to shut us out and prevent us from participating. Please remember how your Saviour came to earth.
Well...I didn't know we were just talking about women participating. I believe women can speak in church, share testimony, teach the bible, have sermons, evangelize, and prophesy. So...what are elders and leaders supposed to do that's so unique? Hold onto and "fight" for the truths from God's word...and I think God gave that job to men. Men and women are different. Neither men nor women are "more important" or "greater". They're complimentary. You need both to be complete. But I think "humble Godly men" are better equipped to lead...especially in a sinful world...and I think the bible backs me up. As far as women participating I believe they can do all that stuff I mentioned. I'll probably get krap from the dudes for saying that women can teach the bible...but if they are teaching the bible, then I don't believe it's the "person" teaching...it's God.
