Ok! Here's something I'd like to talk about some more...for a couple reasons. First reason! It's what I believe. Second reason! I would like it tested by the bible warriors on here. This is the bible battleground after all, why not put my beliefs to the test? I could be wrong, and if I am I'd really like to know.
Here's the scriptures I believe support my belief that when people die, they are in an unconscious state until the second coming of Christ. I honestly don't know absolutely, but it seems like the weight of scripture at least supports an unconscious state after death until the second return of Christ. There are some in heaven, like Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are the only ones I know of for sure. There were many resurrected at the resurrection of Jesus. But I believe as a whole...most of God's followers and all the wicked are resting in the grave until the judgment. So if its ok, I'd like to see the scriptures that contradict my views and support your views...because honestly, I could just be searching the bible for what I want to see.
*1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
* Genesis 2:7. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Body (form) + Breath of life/God (n�phach /puff) = a living being, or Soul (Hebrew נפש nephesh[8])
* Genesis 3:19. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou returnest unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
* Genesis 18:27-28. "27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes: "
* 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom."
* Job 3:17. "There [the grave] the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest."
* 1 Kings 2:10. "10So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 11:21. "21And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers,"
* 1 Kings 11:43. "43And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 14:20. "20And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers"
* 1 Kings 14:31. "31And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 15:8. "8And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David:"
* 1 Kings 15:24. "24And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 16:6. "6So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah:"
* 1 Kings 16:28. "28So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria:"
* 1 Kings 22:40. "40So Ahab slept with his fathers;"
* 1 Kings 22:50. "50And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 2 Kings 8:24. "24And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 10:35. "35And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria."
* 2 Kings 13:9. "9And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria:"
* 2 Kings 14:22. "22He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers."
* 2 Kings 14:29. "29And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel;"
* 2 Kings 15:7. "7So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 15:22. "22And Menahem slept with his fathers;"
* Job 4:17. "17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"
* Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."
* Job 7:10. "10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more."
* Job 14:10-12. "10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
* Job 19:25-28. "25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
* Job 34:14-16. "14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."
* Psalms 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
* Psalm 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
* Psalm 90:5 "You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-"
* Psalms 146:3-4. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whome there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
* Ecclesiastes 3:19-20. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again."
* Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing [....] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [...] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
* Isaiah 14:18 "All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, everyone in his own house."
* Isaiah 26:19. "19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
* Ezekiel 18:20."The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
* Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
* Daniel 12:13 "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
* Matthew 9:24-27. "24He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. 25But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. "
* Matthew 16:27. "27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
* Matthew 27:51-55. "51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, "
* Luke 8:52, 53 "Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. 'Stop wailing,' Jesus said. 'She is not dead but asleep.' They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead."
* John 3:5, 6 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
* John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."
* John 5:28-30. "28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
* John 6:39. "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
* John 6:40. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:44. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:54. "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 12:48. "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
* John 11:11-14. "These things said he [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
* John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."
* John 20:17. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
* Acts 2:29. "29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
* Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand".
* Acts 7:59-62. "59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
* Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption."
* 1 Corinthians 15:16-50 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished [....] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die. [�] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [....] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
* 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed�in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
* 2 Corinthians 4:7-5:4 "For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake [....] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you [....] For which cause we faint not [...] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
* James 2:26. "26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
* Ephesians 5:14 "...for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'"
* 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".
* Hebrews 9:27. "27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
* 1 Timothy 6:16 "who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
* 2 Timothy 4:7-8. " 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
* 2 Peter 3:4 "[...]for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
Luke 16:19 � There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man�s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham�s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father�s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I am not sure where you are coming from about this situation being literal, notice it starts out saying a certain man.
The comparison to sleeping is an English phrase that was popular at the writing of the English Bible KJV. There are some things in the Hebrew that will remind you of it, like sleep with their fathers.
Look up resurrection in your Strongs. I believe you will find at least three definitions, depending on how it was used in the sentence.
It is obvious from the scriptures you use to try to prove your point that one of two things is happening here. Either you are pulling a list from a concordance, or you read your bible with an eye toward proving a point. I cannot argue with that because you are not willing to believe anything, you are just trying to prove a point.
...well, most of these are just what I've learned. Granted, you could count this as indoctrination, but I could say the same about you:winksmile:. So...you're right, I am trying to prove a point. This is what I believe with my whole being...and I've given you plenty of chances to bring a solid case against it(pretty sure Walter is about to drop the "Greek/Hebrew interpretation" bomb too), I even gave you the possible "kryptonite" to my belief...kinda...guess not now that I think about it. You don't believe the hell thing that way...anyway....I could be blind, but there seems to be a lot of verses that contradict or say the complete opposite of what you believe...and you're making little or no effort to do the only thing that would convince me that I'm wrong....explain them. Not the ones that support your belief....the ones that contradict it. I would like you to explain to me why those verses are in the bible...and there are a lot of them. I'm practically begging here. One of us doesn't have it right. I don't know about you, but if its me I want to know. I don't want to just keep going like I always have. I want to know where the truth is. But I think you understand my position. This IS what I believe is the truth, and I have to defend it to the end because it's what my conscious demands...just like you. This isn't some crazy belief that's built on one verse, as I've tried to show you. There is a ton of biblical support for this, besides the fact that it just makes sense....to me anyway. And it's also not just built on the "sleep" thing...it's built on the "resurrection" thing.
And I'd just like to point out that everyone who posts any "beliefs" in this forum section is also "trying to prove a point"....but I promise I am searching for the truth while I do it. I'd just like you to take me a little more seriously. I promise I'll take you seriously next time you post something about your beliefs that I don't agree with instead of dismissing you as stubborn and indoctrinated. :winksmile: I don't know what you mean by "not willing to believe anything". Am I supposed to post what I think is the truth and then fall down at the first belief that disagrees with me? I think I should put up a little fight...maybe just for appearances:laugh:. I guess I could stop posting anything controversial that goes against someone else's beliefs...instead of witnessing to what I believe is the truth...eh...maybe not...how about you? Can you blame me too much? I just hope you remember this next time you post something.:goofball:
I do look in Strong's, but I would have to say the definition that applies to what I believe is also there. Who gets to decide which one to use? I think the bible does. When there's a bunch of verses that say we "sleep" when we die...and when there's a bunch of verses that say we "don't know anything" after we're dead....and when there's verses that say Jesus is preparing a place for us...and when there's a bunch of verses that say we won't see God until the "last day"...and when there's a bunch of verses that say we aren't immortal...and when there's a bunch of verses that say we get our reward at the "last day"...eh...you get the point...the bible interprets the bible. Not Strong's:rolleyes:....and besides...is Strong's considered an inspired book? Are we allowed to interpret the bible with it?:bunny::angel:
LOL. You are one stubborn guy, I know because I am, too. Any time you have two accepted doctrines trying to prove a point, it is going to lead to frustration. Those few months that i spent studying with the JWs, they almost had me convinced of your point of view. What brought me back firmly was, Jesus said repeatedly, If you believe in me, you will never die. There is no way He could be speaking of our physical bodies, they wear out too fast. He had to be referring to our Spirit. To me, never means never. It doesn't end. It just goes on from this world to the next.
I even won over a couple of them before I left, because it is hard to argue with Jesus.
I have stayed away from the verses you quoted because most of them don't mean anywhere near what you say they mean. Several even prove my point. What we are looking at is denominational differences. You have always been told this means this, while I have always been told it means something else. I try to stay away from those subjects because nothing causes hard feelings faster.
Do you see the spirit as a separate entity from the body of man? Do you see it dying with the body, returning to the same dust of the ground from which the body was created?
And again, the majority of the verses you are giving speak of the fate of the body after death. When this body dies, of course there will be no remembrance, it will know nothing. It ceases to function. A dead, decomposed brain cannot function, think, remember, and so on, obviously. And it will remain in whatever decomposed state it is in until the resurrection. I think we all agree on the fate of the body, but can the same be said of the spirit?
You said, "Well...that verse still doesn't say anything about going to heaven when you die in my opinion. I want to go be with Jesus right now too....I have to wait for Him to come, but I still want to be with Him now. Pretty sure that's all Paul was saying."
Here's the passage again. Philippians 1:21-24 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain. But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.
How can death really be a gain if the spirit goes into some unconscious state until the resurrection? Death itself would have no gain, for all us believers will be resurrected, whether dead or alive. But Paul knew that if he died, he would be with Christ. He didn't say somewhere down the road after death, but at death. And he knew that death was not final for him. He actually had a "desire" to die and be with Christ. He knew his body was a tent or house for his spirit and once his body had died, once his spirit left his body, he would be with Christ. It was a desire he believed would be far better than living in the flesh. If, as in your view, the spirit goes into an unconscious state were true, would any of us truly have a "desire to depart"? Would the grave be far better, offering something more than living in the flesh? On the other hand, if you knew that at the death of the body your spirit left to "be with Christ" as Paul states, it would most definitely be a gain over the grave. Which believer would not want to "be with Christ" over abiding in the flesh? The gain at death is not in dying, not in lying in the grave returning to dust, while your spirit sleeps, waiting for the return of Christ, but the spirit departing as it no longer has a tent, and being with Christ is the gain.
You also said, "Even Jesus didn't ascend to heaven until He was resurrected."
Again, you are speaking of the fate of the body, but not the spirit. We already know the body cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven without first becoming immortal at the resurrection. Jesus spoke these words before breathing His last- "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit". Why would He say that? Why would Stephen say something similar if the spirit does not abandon the body at death? The spirits of both belonged to the Father already, so why commend them to Him if they are to lay dormant until some future time? Here's another verse for you to ponder-
Job 27:19-20 The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he [is] not. Terrors take hold on him as waters, a tempest stealeth him away in the night.
The rich man lies down, he opens his eyes and realizes he dead and terror takes a hold of him. That is his spirit. A spirit never dies, nor does it lie dormant without thought or emotion.
Yeah, maybe...but can you think without a brain when you're a spirit? Thats my question. I know the spirit returns to God. There's even a verse that says exactly that. "The spirit returns to God who gave it". My question is...are you conscious or immortal as a spirit?:goofball: As for the souls under the alter thing...God says He can hear blood crying out from the ground, maybe He has some kind of spidey-spirit sense.
Job 27:19 The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.
20Terrors take hold on him as waters, a tempest stealeth him away in the night.
21The east wind carrieth him away, and he departeth: and as a storm hurleth him out of his place.
22For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.
23Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.
Don't think it's talking about death...hopelessness and loss maybe...but death? Could be wrong...but why would men hiss the rich man out of his spirit or hell or wherever you're saying he's at?
