Author	Thread: choice
Admin	choice Posted : 31 Oct, 2009 01:23 PM dear folks,, since GOD doesnt make you sin,then it has to be your choice and you choose to sin.. then when it comes to salvation , you also have to choose, whether you choose life or death.. deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; james 1:13-14 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. ole cattle Post Reply
View Profile History	choice Posted : 17 Nov, 2009 09:30 AM Id like to force you to read my posts,LOL You know by now its not force People sin because of thier evil nature no force in salvation,just regeneration of thier heart,and mind by the holy spirit. In Christ Steve Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	choice Posted : 17 Nov, 2009 01:36 PM Yeah but...God "hardened pharaohs heart". I thought you were saying God forced him? If not, what did you mean? This has been awhile ago so...if you don't remember that's fine. Just wondering. And I try to read your posts...but...I don't have that much time, lol...Manofspam:goofball:. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	choice Posted : 18 Nov, 2009 07:57 AM HE,he,he I gotta admit,the manofspam thing had me rollin:ROFL: Your alright dude! I deserve that one Did I say god forced pharoah,hmmm, In Christ steve Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	choice Posted : 20 Nov, 2009 07:43 AM Well, even if you didn't say it, how do you explain it? You said God doesn't cause people to sin. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	choice Posted : 20 Nov, 2009 01:58 PM Sin is not a thing so God didn't "create" it. It is a moral condition. It is a transgression of God's law. Man and the angels were made free in their original states. They were able to sin or not sin. God overruled their disobedience for His own glory but He didn't cause their disobedience. They lost their freedom when they fell into sin. Here's some portions of the Confession. Think these over for a bit. WCF Ch. III On God's Eternal Decree I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3] 1. Psa. 33:11: Eph. 1:11: Heb. 6:17 2. Psa. 5:4; James 1:13-14; I John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13 3. Acts 2:23; 4:27-28: Matt. 17:12; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33 II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,[4] yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5] 4. I Sam. 23:11-12; Matt. 11:21-23 5. Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18 III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7] 6. I Tim 5:21; Jude 1:6; Matt. 25:31, 41 7. Eph. 1:5-6; Rom. 9:22-23; Prov. 16:4 IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8] 8. John 10:14-16, 27-28; 13:18; 17:2, 6, 9-12; II Tim. 2:19 V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of his glorious grace.[12] 9. Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; Rom. 8:28-30; II Tim. 1:9; I Thess. 5:9 10. Rom. 9:11, 13, 15-16; see Eph. 1:5, 9, 11; 2:8-9 11. Eph. 1:6, 12 VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16] 12. I Peter 1:2; Eph. 2:10; II Thess. 2:13 13. I Thess. 5:9-10; Titus 2:14 14. Rom. 8:30; see Eph. 1:5; II Thess. 2:13 15. I Peter 1:5 16. John 4:47, 6:64-65, 10:14-15 & 26, 17:9; Rom. 8:28-39; I John 2:19 VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[17] 17. Matt. 11:25-26; Rom. 9:17-18, 21-22; Jude 1:4; I Peter 2:8; II Tim. 2:19-20 VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.[21] 18. Rom. 9:20; 11:33; Deut. 29:29 19. II Peter 1:10; I Thess. 1:4-5 20. Eph. 1:6; see Rom. 11:33 21. Rom. 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; Luke 10:20; see II Peter 1:10 In Christ Steve Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	choice Posted : 20 Nov, 2009 04:43 PM Ok, but how do you explain that verse. It's active. "God hardened pharaohs heart". Not Satan. Not Pharaoh. God. That excerpt didn't address the verse very well. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	choice Posted : 20 Nov, 2009 05:17 PM The best, most direct, simple answer to the question above is: �In order to demonstrate His power, and in order that His name might be proclaimed throughout the entire earth.� The reason that is the best, most direct, simple answer to the question is because it is God's own answer. See Exodus 9:16 and Romans 9:17. God raised up Pharaoh and hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to promote His own glory. �But,� you may say, �that doesn�t sound right to me. It just doesn't seem to me that God would arrange for a person to actually sin and rebel just to make Himself great.� At which point I would ask, �How do you propose that we determine the truth about what motivates the heart of God? Will we base our conclusions on our own feelings about what seems right? Or will we base our conclusions on what God Himself says in the Bible to be true about what motivates Him?� Many wise and reputable commentators propose that when the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, i.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32. Dr. Norman Geisler, for instance, a scholar whose work we regard highly and frequently cite in this publication, holds that God did not directly harden Pharaoh's heart (or anyone else's heart for that matter) contrary to their own free choice, but only indirectly, through their own choice. In their excellent book When Critics Ask (�1992 Victor Books), Geisler and Howe say, �God in His omniscience foreknew exactly how Pharaoh would respond, and He used it to accomplish His purposes. God ordained the means of Pharaoh's free but stubborn action�� And that's the position of many other respected commentators. But not all. There are those who believe that the simplest and most accurate reading of Exodus chapters 4-9, and the corresponding text in Romans 9:17ff, rather indicates that it was God Himself and none other who was the primary, initiating, direct, and driving force behind Pharaoh's choice to harden his heart. Romans 9 is perhaps the most difficult chapter in the Bible to read, accurately understand, and fully accept, because what Romans 9 teaches flies in the face of our human inclination to be independent, self-determining, and proud. Romans 9 indicates that it is God, not us�not me�who is in control. In fact, it shows that God is in such total control that He can and does sovereignly elect to show mercy to some people while hardening the hearts of others. And it shows that He is just in doing so. And it shows that I am in no position to challenge Him on the matter (Romans 9:20-21). And it shows that I am also still fully responsible for all of my actions and accountable for all of my choices. Am I then saying that God Himself actually arranged for Pharaoh to sin? Job was attacked by Satan.Yes, in much the same sense that He arranged for Joseph's brothers to sell Joseph into slavery (Genesis 50:20), Satan to attack Job (Job 1:12), Jews and and Romans to crucify Jesus (Acts 2:23), and sin to exist in the first place. Well, if that's true, how can we explain what seems like a contradiction�that God wills sin which is, by definition, against His will. Theologians have often handled this paradox by concluding that there are two wills in God, sometimes referred to as God's sovereign will and His revealed (perceptive) will, or His will of command and His will of decree. And also by understanding that in God's view and plan, it is good that there is evil in this world. Note�that is not to say that evil is itself good; only that evil serves a worthy end and is therefore an important and integral part of God's good purposes. But isn't God compassionate toward all men�even sinners? And if so, how could He harden Pharaoh's heart while simultaneously loving him and feeling compassion for him? Dr. John Piper addresses this as follows: �There is a genuine inclination in God's heart to spare those who have committed treason against his kingdom. But his motivation is complex, and not every true element in it rises to the level of effective choice. In his great and mysterious heart there are kinds of longings and desires that are real� Yet not all of these longings govern God's actions. He is governed by the depth of his wisdom expressed through a plan that no ordinary human deliberation would ever conceive (Romans 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 2:9). There are holy and just reasons for why the affections of God's heart have the nature and intensity and proportion that they do.� In Christ Steve Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	choice Posted : 21 Nov, 2009 04:24 PM Two wills in God? Wow...um...yeah...I won't ask next time... :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	choice Posted : 21 Nov, 2009 04:45 PM ok then,how would you explain it then?Do you think god is all-powerful,all knowing....ect?If you do then he must have created people knowing full well that some would not CHOOSE him!If thats the case then he created people for damnation period.Either way you look at it.If you dont think he is omnipresent and omnimpotent then its not the god of the bible we are speaking about.If you think theres some kind of power struggle in heaven you are gravely mistaken.There is no battle to be won.God has satan on a leash like a dog.This is all a great demonstration of his glory for our benefit.He created everything knowing in advance how everything would play out,making some vessels for glory.Maybe you dont like this god.But this is the god that the bible describes. In Christ Steve Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	choice Posted : 22 Nov, 2009 04:32 PM God is all-powerful, but He created us with free will. He created Adam with free will, He created Satan with free will. He created everything with free will. He knew they would sin but He didn't interfere...that's the way He made us. Are you going to tell me that Satan sinning was God's will? Or that God just let Satan make his own choices? He already knew about and planned for them....but that's not the same as it being His will, or taking away Satan's will. He let it go because that's how He created us. As far as pharaoh goes...it's just a matter of pride. God showed a supposedly "god-like" Pharaoh just how pathetic he really was...and caused pharaoh's pride to get in the way. I don't believe He actively made Pharaoh to sin, but the events that God set in motion caused a sinful reaction in Pharaoh...and since God knew what would happen, He prophesied about it to Moses. "I will harden Pharaohs heart". Exodus 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand. 20And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go. Here's Pharaohs pride... Exodus 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. Just a possibility. Seems likely to me that God only had to show Pharaoh His power to harden Pharaohs prideful heart. Not actually remove Pharaohs free will. :peace::peace: Post Reply

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