Thread: Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
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Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 11:48 AM
Hi Everyone,
This article I wrote will be dealing with the issue of "Eternal Security" also known as "OSAS" Once Saved Always Saved". This theology is an off shoot from Calvinism's 5th point called "Preseverance of the Saints". What some of you do not know is that the belief of OSAS or "Onced Saved Always Saved" did not exist or come into being until the 1500s AD when John Calvin invented it. Prior to that, no record is found anywhere in Church history that anyone ever believed or taught this. The consistent view of Chritianity has always been that a true Christian could forfeit their salvation should they committ the one sin called Apostasy.
Those who believe in OSAS like Southern and Independent Baptists do will claim that if a person who is truly saved will never commit Apostasy or that if they do then they were never really saved to beign with. The problem with that philosophy is that it is not supported by scripture. If a Christian was not able to commit Apostasy, to deny Christ totally, then why did God in His infinite wisdon have numerous scriptures written to warn Christians of the potential of that very thing? It seems absurd for God to warn His saved Christian children if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. Let's look at some scriptures that deal with this.
Let's first deal with a passage where Jesus was giving a private teaching to His 12 Disciples.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
Let's look at what Paul had to say.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In the above passage Paul is making a very clear statement. He is stating that a person's salvation is "conditional" by using the phrase "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". The word "IF" is a conditional word and is in every translation written. 100% of all translators used this word for this phrase as well as the passage below. What both passages are clearly stating is that our Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our CONTINUED FAITH in the Gospel / Christ. It has nothing at all to do with works. It is our FAITH in Christ, but it is still our choice to remain/ continue or not to. FREE WILL.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note that Paul is not telling them of their need to obtain saving faith, but of their need to CONTINUE in their saving faith that they have already obtained and the consequence IF they do not continue which is forfeiture of their salvation. There would be no warnings if the threat and consequence of Apostasy were not real.
Paul consistently encouraged his readers but usually did so after he warned them of the dangers of committing Apostasy. Let me show you a pattern of writings he did regarding salvation, the dangers of "Falling Away" from the Christian Faith Encouragement to continue in the faith and how even he himself potentially could have become an Apostate or "Reprobate"/"Castaway"
Phil 3:9 � and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 � Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. NKJV
Acts 20:24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. NKJV
1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.NKJV
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (KJV)
There is an important analogy Paul is giving here. He is making it very clear in my opinion, that in order to receive an "imperishable crown" which we know is the crown of Life, we have to finish the race. We have to cross the finish line. Remember not everyone who is running in this race will cross the finish line.
Notice that Paul is saying that he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Jesus Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "reprobate" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard.
Paul is again talking about running a race. He must love Track like me. LOL Notice he is encouraging his readers, who are CHRISTIANS I might add, to run the race in such a away as to receive the prize. He is not making any guarantees or any implications that they would finish the race but he encouraged them to do so. This encouragement was also more of a warning to them.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,NKJV
Same theme. Run the race WITH ENDURANCE. Persevere to the end.
Mat 24: 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJV
Jesus laid the foundation above that Paul continued to preach upon.
2 Tim 4: 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Paul knew his time to die was coming very soon and he imparted some final words.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. NKJV
Paul was ready to die and he made it plain that he had finished the race and that he had KEPT THE FAITH. What is the opposite of keeping the Faith? NOT keeping the faith. Falling back unto UNBELIEF. APOSTASY. Forfeiture of one's Salvation.
There is a distinct difference between Arminian Theology and Weslyan.
Weslyan theology, which is what Assembly of God, Methodists and a few others believe, teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation by committing certain sins like adultery and fornication and then if the person repents then they regain their salvation back. That is simply not biblical and makes their salvation somewhat of a works based faith which is not biblical.
Arminian theology teaches that once a Christian has committed Apostasy, then they can never come back. They can never be forgiven again. Once salvation has been forfeited there is no more hope for that person. Coincidentally, this is also what the Earliest Church Fathers of the first two centuries taught. :-)
There are no number of sins or sins per se that will cause a Christian to lose their salvation. There is only one sin and one sin only that causes a Christian to "Forfeit" their salvation and that sin is called "Apostasy"aka "falling away." That is a total and complete rejection of Christ and His teachings. It is falling back to a state of UNbelief.
What is "Apostasy?"
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God.
Paul warned just as Jesus did that in the last days there WILL BE a "Falling Away" from the faith. In 2Thess 2:3 Paul gave this warning of an event that will occur. So what is it?
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
Apostasy is akin to a Divorce. A Christian divorcing from Christ. When this occurs, you are no longer His. You are no longer a Christian. You are no longer saved.
So how does this happen to a Christian?
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
Paul also related this same situation to the Christians in Rome. Paul was explaining to these Gentile Christians about unbelieving Israel and how some of the natural branches (Jews) were broken off so that Gentile Christians could be grafted into the vine. Then Paul gives a similar warning as Christ did.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NKJV
Paul was warning these Gentile Christians not to be haughty but to fear. In other words do not be so secure in thinking that it is not possible for you as a Christian to fall back into "unbelief" and be cut off from God just as some Jews were.
Conclusion.
The scriptures above clearly refute the False teachings of OSAS and "Perseverance of the Faith". Calvinisms 5th point cannot stand.
We as Christians have a responsibility to choose to continue in Christ, "endure until the end" or not to. God does not force salvation on anyone nor does He stop a Christian from committing Apostasy.
1Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 28 Mar, 2009 05:20 PM
Hi Jeff,
I appreciate you letting me know where you are at and where you are coming from in all of this. I greatly appreciate your enthusiasm as well. I know how I need to address this better so as to hopefully make it easier. If i get too technical please feel free to let me know.
Enjoy your game. LOL....I may have to have a couple of more days to address the original post as I had a lot of "me" time today as I was tired and needing to go and enjoy the day.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 29 Mar, 2009 12:11 PM
Hi Leon,
Let me address your question before I have to get ready for work.
WALTER: I will copy the whole quote .."That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundations of the world were laid, determined to save, out of the human race which had fallen into sin, in Christ, for Christ's sake and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on the same His Son and shall through the same grace persevere in this same faith and obedience of faith even to the end; and on the other hand to leave under sin and wrath the contumacious and unbelieving and to condemn them as aliens from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36, and other passages of Scripture."
LEON: We all know people who start out like gang busters, then wander away and never come back. Did God make a mistake with these people?
WALTER: God never makes a mistake. God does not force salvation nor take away man's Free Will after salvation.
LEON: Did their "free will" cause them to give up the salvation God had called them to receive? Calvinists would say these people were never saved to start with, and were obviously not called. I would be interested in your explanation, and yes I know the Bible tells us this will happen, but my question is, how does this apply to the Armenian belief?
WALTER: No... their "free Will" did not cause them to give up their salvation, it was their continued sin that caused their hearts to harden and eventually reject Christ. The problem with the Calvinist assumption that these people were never saved goes against the context of the passages of scriptures whose warnings are directed to true Christians. Look at the grammar in the verses below. Though Calvinists and many Baptists claim that these people were never saved they are making the wrong assumption that a person's final outcome determines if they were initially saved.
Heb 3:1;12-14
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,...
Clearly addressed to true Christians.
12 Take heed, BRETHREN,[Christians] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of... UNBELIEF,...... in departing.... from... the living God.
[You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with.]
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened THROUGH the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ,... IF.... we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Notice the necesssity of "perseverance" of one's faith?
There is a point in time when God will no longer draw a Christian to repentance. When that happens, woe to that person as they can never come back after falling away, a total rejection, a divorcing from God which is what Apostasy is.
Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away,...IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO... to renew them AGAIN.... unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [BLASPHEMY]
7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God:
8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned. ASV
Let's briefly examine these next two passage.
1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.
It is God's heart and His will that every person become saved. But clearly not every one gets saved or stays saved.
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, BUT THAT ALL COME TO REPENTANCE.
Does everyone come to repentance? No. Then you can say that God's will is not always accomplished.
Here is a copy of an article written by my Friend and Pastor. I am pressed for time...sorry i can't place it in my own words.
The debate between Calvinists and Arminians hinges on whether God's will is always accomplished. It is apparent from many passages that God's will is not always carried out. Jesus told His disciples to pray "thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Obviously, if God's will was universally being done on earth as in heaven, Jesus' command to His disciples was a bit redundant and pointless.
God's will is that believers obstain from fornication. Paul wrote, "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit," (1Thes 4:3-8). It is clear that Paul recognized that some Christians could reject the "will of God," and resist it.
God's will is that believers continually give thanks. "pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you," (1Thes 5:17-18). Does anyone suppose that all the Thessalonians (or all Christians) perfectly carry out God's will concerning prayer and giving thanks? Hardly!
That God's will is not always accomplished extends to the salvation of people as well. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim 2:3-4). Peter said precisely the same thing. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
If God is sovereign and can save whomever He chooses, and His will is that none perish, why isn't everyone saved? The fact that most people are not saved logically demands that one of the following four things must be true.
1. Peter and Paul were mistaken about God's will. (These passages are inaccurate)
2. God is incapable of saving everyone He desires to save. (God is impotent)
3. God does not act according to His own will. (God is schizophrenic and irrational).
4. God has chosen to limit His own sovereignty to allow man to freely choose. (God has a purpose in permitting free will).
It is obvious that #4 is the only rational choice. But how can this be? The answer is simply that there is a conflict of desires within God. That is, there is tension between His desire for all to be saved, and His purpose in man's salvation which demands free will on the part of man. The tension between allowing man free will, and desiring all to be saved, fully explains God's actions recorded in Scripture. God's actions are perfectly consistent with His expressed desires. He wants all to be saved. And He has provided the means for all to be saved at great cost to Himself. But He also values free will, without which the kind of loving, intimate relationship God desires with man is not possible.
God is sovereign, and is in total control of His universe. He is all powerful, and nobody can resist His will when He decrees something. But, it does not necessarily follow, as Calvinists insist, that He wields His sovereignty in every circumstance. It is quite possible that under many circumstances, God allows men and angels to make their own choices, and reap the results of their choices, both good and bad. As parents, we do this at times as a necessary part of parenting. Our children need to experience the harsh consequences bad choices in small things so they will avoid the terrible consequences of bad choices in big things. As parents, we increasingly permit the free will of the child. This in no way implies that we have given up our sovereignty as parents. www.pfrs.org
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 29 Mar, 2009 12:53 PM
Walter,
Much of what you say makes sense and I agree to a point. I do think that God does the calling, and this would indicate the presence of the Holy Spirit even prior to salvation. I am not sure how this would hold up with either belief.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 29 Mar, 2009 09:49 PM
Hi Leon,
You said: "Much of what you say makes sense and I agree to a point. I do think that God does the calling, and this would indicate the presence of the Holy Spirit even prior to salvation. I am not sure how this would hold up with either belief."
WALTER: Yes you are correct. God does the calling but an important point is that God calls "all" men, not just the "elect". Let's examine some scriptures regarding this.
Titus 2:11 b"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."
Calvinist would say that the word "all" here means "all the Elect". While I agree with them that the word "all" can mean a specific group like "all the elect", in this passage it does not. The problem is that the term "all" here is an adjective that modifies the noun "men" which in Greek is [anthropos]. When an adjective modifies a particular noun in a specific clause like in this case, then it cannot be limited to a general context. The Greek word "anthropos" (men) refers to humanity, not the "elect." Therefore, this passage in question cannot rightly be limited to the elect. In this scripture it absolutely refers to everyone...all mankind.
John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light.... WHICH GIVES LIGHT TO EVERY MAN COMING INTO THE WORLD. NKJV
Christ gives light to every individual that comes into the World without exception. So since it is God's will that everyone be saved and that all would come to repentance and that Christ gives light to every person that comes into the world, how is that most people resist including Christians?
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always....RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye." (Acts 7:51). Steven was rebuking the Sanhedrin because of their hardness of heart but notice that they were able to "RESIST" the Holy Spirit. Obviously "resistance is not futile".
Man has the ability, given by God....Free Will... to resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit which draws everyone, not just the "elect" as Calvinists claim. In fact Calvinists claim that man is not capable of resisting the drawing power of the Holy Spirit. Obviously they are in error.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 29 Mar, 2009 10:31 PM
It is God's heart and His will that every person become saved. But clearly not every one gets saved or stays saved.
seems to contradict this verse.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
9:14-24 Whatever God does, must be just. Wherein the holy, happy people of God differ from others, God's grace alone makes them differ. In this preventing, effectual, distinguishing grace, he acts as a benefactor, whose grace is his own. None have deserved it; so that those who are saved, must thank God only; and those who perish, must blame themselves only, Hos 13:9. God is bound no further than he has been pleased to bind himself by his own covenant and promise, which is his revealed will. And this is, that he will receive, and not cast out, those that come to Christ; but the drawing of souls in order to that coming, is an anticipating, distinguishing favour to whom he will. Why does he yet find fault? This is not an objection to be made by the creature against his Creator, by man against God. The truth, as it is in Jesus, abases man as nothing, as less than nothing, and advances God as sovereign Lord of all. Who art thou that art so foolish, so feeble, so unable to judge the Divine counsels? It becomes us to submit to him, not to reply against him. Would not men allow the infinite God the same sovereign right to manage the affairs of the creation, as the potter exercises in disposing of his clay, when of the same lump he makes one vessel to a more honourable, and one to a meaner use? God could do no wrong, however it might appear to men. God will make it appear that he hates sin. Also, he formed vessels filled with mercy. Sanctification is the preparation of the soul for glory. This is God's work. Sinners fit themselves for hell, but it is God who prepares saints for heaven; and all whom God designs for heaven hereafter, he fits for heaven now. Would we know who these vessels of mercy are? Those whom God has called; and these not of the Jews only, but of the Gentiles. Surely there can be no unrighteousness in any of these Divine dispensations. Nor in God's exercising long-suffering, patience, and forbearance towards sinners under increasing guilt, before he brings utter destruction upon them. The fault is in the hardened sinner himself. As to all who love and fear God, however such truths appear beyond their reason to fathom, yet they should keep silence before him. It is the Lord alone who made us to differ; we should adore his pardoning mercy and new-creating grace, and give diligence to make our calling and election sure.
so is God willing to show mercy to all? or to some?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 29 Mar, 2009 11:06 PM
another beef i have with the arminian view is that, it doesnt give 100% of the glory to God... it gives 95% to God and the 5% to us...
if God gives us a choice, then the rest of it is up to us... we then take the next step which by accepting his gift we sort of save outselves... that takes glory from God. but if God saves you all by himself, 100% of the glory goes to him.
if its up to me to accept his gift, then i can boast... God makes sure that we cant boast... arminian belief contradicts that.
God knew us before the foundation of the earth was made. he already loved us in eternity. he knew his sheep in eternity. there is just to much dumbing God down to human reasoning with the arminian view. the arminian view makes him seem more human... it makes him more responsive to us... But God has forknowledge and is all knowing, which means he doesnt respond to us.
example:Arminian
John: Lord i accept you into my heart, i accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross for my sins, and i repent.
God's response: John i love you, and i forgive you... i am so happy you have accepted my gift. I will now give you the Holy spirit so that he will guide you and change you...
5 years later.....
John: i love booze, pornos and strip clubs.
Gods response: John i am taking my spirit from you now.
3 years later
John: Forgive me Lord i have sinned!
Gods response: you can have the holy spirit back and i forgive you again... you are once again my child.
10 years later
John: i love booze, pornos, and strip clubs
God: wow John, you need to make up your mind... i am sorry, but my spirit can no longer be with you.
God is all knowing, which means before John was ever born, he knew John was going commit appostacy.
so then why did he give him the Holy spirit in the first place? why did God forgive him, if he knew he was going to commit appostacy. that makes God seem very responsive... if God knows the future, then he doesnt respond to anything.
example:calminian
Before the beginning God did not choose(show mercy, save, love) John. (i will show mercy on whom i will show mercy) and i dont choose John.
John: Lord i accept you into my heart, i accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross for me sins, and i repent.
God: John, i know your heart... you may love me now, but you are not my sheep... you will forget me.
5 years later.....
John: i love booze, pornos and strip clubs.
Gods: i knew you before you was born. 3 years from now you will once again come to me, but i will not hear you.
3 years later
John: Forgive me Lord i have sinned!
Gods response: and you will die in your sin 15 years from now
10 years later
John: i love booze, pornos, and strip clubs
God: i know.
5 years later
john dies...
if you ask me, this is a less human version of God.
God knew him, and not once did he give the Holy spirit to him. God didnt save him. God knew his final outcome, so he didnt have to "play along". God knew he wouldnt hold out unto the end. many of us would have considered him a christian through out most of his life time... But God didnt know him. we would see that as commiting apostacy... and maybe it was. but since God knew his final outcome, God was never with him. sure the man accepted Chirst into his life and went 5 years of his life as a dedicated christian. but i dont see God making decisions in the present time. he made his decision in eternity. hes not changing things here, saving and then unsaving people like someone who just doesnt know what to do. his book has already been written... he wrote it. we are just living in it. we live in present time, and make decisions based off of our past. be God knows our future.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 30 Mar, 2009 09:33 AM
you know what would convince me tht you can be saved and then unsaved?
the verse that says "you are saved through grace..." if i saw a verse that said "you are saved through grace and are unsaved through apostacy" then there would be no confusion... but unfortunatly, their are no verses where the words saved and/or grace are used with the word apostacy in the same sentence. not ONE...
if there was one verse that was that clear i would believe it... there are no verses that mention you can be saved and then you can commit appostacy in one or even 2 or 3 sentences...
like my examples shown above... you can love God with all your heart... but God knows your final outcome.
