This discussion will be a controversial one no doubt but one that I hope all will be open to searching out God's truth as opposed to having preconceptions about what we believe or have been taught.
In dealing with the Spiritual Gifts in the New Testament it is interesting to note that after the initial occurrance at Pentecost in the upper room when the Holy Spirit for the first time descended upon all the disciples that were there, there was only one exception when the Holy Spirit gave gifts prior to the laying on of hands by the Apostles. However an Apostle was present.
The incident was dealing with Peter who was not with the program so to speak so the Holy Spirit had to get him moving. haha. Other than that no one after ever received any of the spiritual gifts UNLESS the Apostles personally laid their hands on that person or the Apostles were at least present. It is also interesting to note that only the Apostles had the power to lay hands and impart spiritual gifts. Whoever received the spiritual gifts never had the power to impart those gifts to someone else. The person receiving gifts had the power of using the gifts but not to pass on the gifts themselves.
One of the most critical passages concerning this issue is below in Acts 8.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves. Phillip did NOT have the power to impart any gifts himself.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
What is often misunderstood by Charismatics and Pentecostals is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone or they had not received the Holy Spirit as yet, it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe?
That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts THROUGH the Apostles by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occurred.
Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures.
In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV
Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receiving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation.
What had to happen?
An Apostle of Jesus Christ had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".
Here is another passage dealing with the special powers given exclusively to the Apostles and those who had received the gifts AT THAT TIME.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
15 & 16 applies to us today as well as this is a commandment for us to spread the Gospel.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Verse 17 & 18 are not for the church today as no one has the legitimate gifts imparted by the Apostles of Christ because they are all dead and in Heaven now. No one today can cast out a demon nor drink poison and expect to live or handle a deadly snake and once bitten expect to live. No one also can lay hands on the sick and heal them today. God can do it and does perform miracles but no human has the" supernatural power" that the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ had. There are many fakers, many frauds and many well meaning deceived Christians who believe that they posses a "supernatural gift" from the Holy Spirit. The problem is that their beliefs are based upon some really bad teachings from gross misinterpretations of scriptures and "feelings". Men like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and their ilk have all been exposed for their fraudulent practices and giving False Prophesies...yet...people still follow them and will not accept the truth about them.
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
I want to point out a few things here. First when the scripture here referres to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them BY the Apostles of Christ. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
There is where it says they will pass away. I also gave you very clear scriptures that show this has always been the case.
You are the one that said over and over on this post, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If this is the case, show me in scripture where God has given these gifts to all His people, like you are claiming. You can't, because it never happened.
Just as I pointed out, there has always been a pattern for these gifts.
Now I have a challenge for you, put that Pentecostal spirit aside, open your heart to God, and He will reveal the truth to you. I was taught by the Pentecostals, and I recognize that defensiveness and stubbornness that always comes out when they are proven wrong.
So, let's examine this more closely. The one scripture that always comes up with this is the Joel prophesy. I have seen you quoting it in almost every post. Do you realize that this is an unfulfilled prophesy? Let's examine it, as Peter quoted it in Acts, but this time, let's look at ALL of it.
2:17
'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
2:18
And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
2:19
I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
2:21
And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.'
The Pentecostals and Charismatics are big on this scripture. This is all one prophesy, and exactly what Peter quoted. The sun is still in the sky, the moon is not blood. Therefore this prophesy can not be fulfilled yet. It is the same thing as the tongues in church all over again. They will quote verses 17 and 18, but always act like the others don't exist. Yes, we got a taste of it that day, but that is it. We will all know when this one is fulfilled, but I don't think that will be until the tribulation period.
This is one of the reasons I didn't want to get in to this. People will believe what they have always believed, no matter what you show them. We attach the same faith in what we have been taught as we do in our faith in God. It is always the case, that this subject makes people angry. I was blessed to have been raised a conservative Baptist, and then taught by the Pentecostals. I actually believed all those things at that time, but the more I have studied it, the more I found that the teachings are just wrong.
I have consistently addressed this and have demonstrated with clear scriptures, as well as Leon has, that it was only through the APOSTLES OF Jesus Christ laying on hands that these supernatural gifts were imparted to people. Without the 12 Apostles of Christ laying on hands, no one can receive these supernatural gifts and they do not exist today.
You don't want to address the passage about Simon because it clearly refutes your position. It is absolutely relevant and demonstrates HOW the gifts were imparted. The Greek grammar fully supports what I have presented.
I read a lot of your "opinions" but I don't see any place where you have refuted my position. In other words Ella, in order to prove me wrong you are going to have to show me in the scriptures I presented where my exegesis is wrong. Show me where I violated Hermeneutics.
Ella....did you read and study the article I linked to?
Why was Philip NOT able to lay on hands and impart supernatural gifts to others? Be careful...I am not talking about exercising gifts but being able to impart gifts like only the Apostles of Christ could do.
Why was it necessary for the Jerusalem Church to send Apostles OF Jesus Christ to where Philip was?
What was it that they could do that no one else could? In other words what special power did the Apostles "OF" Christ have that no one else had?
Ella.....what did Simon observe?
What power did Simon observe the Apostles of Jesus had that no one else had?
Why didn't the active Church in Rome filled with Christians have any of the same gifts that Paul imparted to the Corinthian Church or any church established by Paul?
Why didn't they possess those same gifts?
Why did Paul find it necessary to go to Rome?
Why did the supernatural gifts disappear soon after the last Apostle of Christ died?
Okay guys, I am bailing out on this one as well. The tone is quickly deteriorating and I like both of you too much to go any farther with this. God bless.
