I asked a question on another thread and was told is was silly and irrelevant. The question was : Is it likely that a man on a deserted island with only a Bible would come up with Calvinism, Tulip, The Doctrines of Grace, Reformation Theology (all the same thing).
I think it is a totally relevant question and not silly at all. Here is why: If a person cannot read the Bible alone and come to Calvinism on their own then 'logically' Calvinism must come from a source outside the Bible.
Well I guess I'm a "Calvinist" so I can say that I do believe as the verse say, He is the Saviour of all men. I just don't think you are using Saviour the right way. For Saviour to be the Saviour you say it is, God would have to actually save all men. That verse is not saying that. You don't believe in universalism, so your interpretation of that scripture cannot be correct.
Ask yourself is Christ all men's Saviour? If He is, in what way then is He their Saviour? We know that to those who die, He is not their Saviour unto salvation. The key to the verse is in what way is He a Saviour to all men. That of course cannot mean in the salvation sense.
Shared ~ Well I guess I'm a "Calvinist" so I can say that I do believe as the verse say, He is the Saviour of all men. I just don't think you are using Saviour the right way.
*** There ya go thinking again...:laugh:...Ima teasin ya...:goofball:...Ryan...sweet child...I dont Use the Verse or the Saviour...I Just Beleive it...There are no Hidden Messages or Reading Into It or Betwix the Lines...It [ GOD ] says what it [ GOD ] says and Means what it [ GOD ] Means...You said your self "Guessing" you are a "Calvinist"..." so I can say that I do believe as the verse say, He is the Saviour of all men."...Are you Second Guessing your self now ???...GeeeeWeeezzzz...Dont be doing that...you could POP a Brain Cell and Become a Atheisit...:rolleyes:...Heaven Forbid...xo
Shared ~ Well I guess I'm a "Calvinist" so I can say that I do believe as the verse say, He is the Saviour of all men. I just don't think you are using Saviour the right way.
Jude said:
*** There ya go thinking again......Ima teasin ya......Ryan...sweet child...I dont Use the Verse or the Saviour...I Just Beleive it...There are no Hidden Messages or Reading Into It or Betwix the Lines...It [ GOD ] says what it [ GOD ] says and Means what it [ GOD ] Means...You said your self "Guessing" you are a "Calvinist"..." so I can say that I do believe as the verse say, He is the Saviour of all men."...Are you Second Guessing your self now ???...GeeeeWeeezzzz...Dont be doing that...you could POP a Brain Cell and Become a Atheisit......Heaven Forbid...xo
James replies:
Jude, whether you admit it or not YOU interpret what you read.
There is no way around it.
saying "I believe it" does NOT answer the question WHAT do you believe about that verse.
For instance, I could say that YOU, Jude, are a universalist, meaning you believe the everyone who ever lived is saved, and NO ONE will go to Hell.
I mean after all, if "Jesus is the saviour of ALL men"....
James replies: Jude, whether you admit it or not YOU interpret what you read. There is no way around it. saying "I believe it" does NOT answer the question WHAT do you believe about that verse.
*** I do ???...I believe it is the Holy Spirit that Reveals Scripture...I just Read it...And You really Believe that when I Say Something I Really Mean Something Else ???�No wonder Calvinists are Soooo�Wishy Washy�Example�I Think it says�but then�I Could be Wrong�If God said it�then Maybe its Right�but then Again�He could have Meant Something Else�I am Saved but Maybe I'm not...Come on James�What kind of Tap Dance is this�The Word ( Jesus ) Means What it says�It Does not Matter what I Think it says�it Only matters that I Whole Heartedly Without Question�Believe what My GOD /Jesus says�not what Calvin or Arminian thinks it says...
James Shared ~ For instance, I could say that YOU, Jude, are a universalist, meaning you believe the everyone who ever lived is saved, and NO ONE will go to Hell.
*** Well�Yes you could�an Probably have amongst other names�You are Very into Labeling People all kinds of Labels�from Arminian to Ana-Baptist to Reprobate�and an Occasional Ignorant�As far as the Hell part�I believe in Hell�an I know Many will go there�for the Bible�the Word of GOD tells it like it is�
James Shared ~ I mean after all, if "Jesus is the saviour of ALL men"....
*** This verse is not in Reference to Hell James and with a Hint of Sarcasam there ya go again Reading into the Verse Subject matter that the Context of the Chapter is not Talking about�This is Exactly what Calvinistic Teaching and Doctrine does�It�s a Bate an Switch Tactic�to Causing Confusion�notice the subtle { if ]�Quoting you from just above this�� I mean after all, { if } "Jesus is the saviour of ALL men"...I don�t have to Guess that you have a lot of If�s, and Maybes in the Doctrine of Calvin�Prase GOD There are no Ifs or Maybe�s in Jesus Doctrine�xo
. This is the correct interpretation. It is found by making a thorough study of the term "Saviour" (in both its noun and verb forms1) in the context of the chapter, the epistle, the New Testament and the Old Testament.2 The final phrase "specially of those that believe" clearly Indicates that the term is here given a twofold application. Of all men God is the Saviour, but of some men, namely, believers, He is the Saviour in a deeper, more glorious sense than He is of others.
This clearly implies that when He Is called the Saviour of all men, this cannot mean that He imparts to all everlasting life, as He does to believers. The term "Saviour," then, must have a meaning which we today generally do not immediately attach to it. And that is exactly the cause of the difficulty. Often In the Old Testament, the term meant "to deliver � (verbal form) or deliverer (nominal form)" � both with reference to men and God (cf. Judg. 3:9; II Kings 13:5; Neh. 9:27; Ps. 25:5; 106:21). Also, in the New Testament, reference is made to the Old Testament where God delivered Israel from the oppression of Pharaoh for He had been the Saviour of all, but specially those who believed. With the latter, and with them alone, He was "well pleased" (I Cor. 10:5). All leave Egypt; not all enter Canaan." POINT: In both the Old and New Testaments the term "Saviour" is often used to speak of God's providential preservation or deliverance which extends to all men without exception. (Cf. Ps. 36:6; 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 17:25, 28.) Moreover, God also causes His gospel of salvation to be earnestly proclaimed to all men without distinction; that is, to men from every race and nation (Matt. 28:19). Truly the kindness (providence or common grace) of God extends to all. But even the circle of those to whom the message of salvation is proclaimed is wider than those who receive it by a true saving faith.
B. Conclusion. A paraphrase of what Paul is teaching in I Timothy 4:10 is this: "We have our hope set on the living God, and in this hope we shall not be disappointed, for not only is He a kind God, hence the Saviour (i.e., preserver or deliverer in a providential, non-soteriological sense) of all men, showering blessings upon them, but He is, in a very special sense, the Saviour (in a soteriological sense) of those who by faith embrace Him and His promise, for to them He imparts salvation, everlasting life in all its fulness.
*** And just out of couriousity who's " Correct Interpretation " is that James ???...The Holy Spirit ? or another mans ?...it does truely does not Appear to be Yours...xo
1stTim 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The answer is in the verse and it is the answer that was established from the beginning, he is the savior of those that believe, he has never changed that is the lord Jesus, he is always in the now what he said then in the now, is true in our now.
Now does he change because some justify their right to interpret, no he changeth not, he is the lord of those that believe him.
