I have tried very hard, searching the scriptures to prove your doctrines as truth. However, such scripture has eluded me.
This is a very simple request.
Can you provide me with 4 scriptures and 4 scriptures only?
One each for the first 4 points of reformed doctrine.
1) Total Depravity ~ Need a scripture that says plainly man lost the ability to choose as a result of the fall. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
2) Unconditional Election ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says God chooses from all men unconditionally a few to save. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
3) Limited Atonement ~ Need a scripture that plainly says Christ's Atonement on the cross only covers a few, not the whole world. ( Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
4) Irresistible Grace ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says no man can resist the Grace of God. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
*If you all cannot provide one plain straight forward scripture for each point, then it is quite plain you have gone beyond Scripture ....wouldn't you agree?
You can't just say you disagree without explainging yourself and what the passage means as you see it.
So what part of Romans chapter 9, verses 1-12, do you disagree with in my post concerning Ishmal and Isaac? What is this passage about? If you disagree...
Explain why God said He loved Jacob and hated Esau in verse 13?
What is the point that Paul is making when explaining how God works and makes His choices to chose whom He pleases?
And what does God mean concerning Pharoah?
If God is not showing us His righteous sovereign character as to how He goes about making His choices, and man's finite character and unlimited understanding of God. Just what is Paul speaking about here.
oooppps! :excited:that is SUPPOSE to read man's LIMITED understanding of God... ha1.. man wish he had unlimited understanding of God.
while I 'm here, 2sparrow, you say what I posted is out of the scope of scripture, and i was just wondering if you mean its out of the scope of scripture according to YOUR understanding and interpretation of scriputre? Or is it out of the scope of scripture according to what God is saying in scriptures and His revelation of what He is saying, and has been proven throughout scriptures?..
ET, I can only assume you missed my previous you responded to : )
So I will copy and paste it here for you :
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Margo,
Not to get off track, but just a quick thought on Jacob, Esau and the Pharoah : Esau was blessed by God also, but the promise was to come through Jacob. So saying God hated Esau without looking at the big picture presents the wrong meaning to the sentence.
As for the Pharoah, the bible said God "raised" him up for this, not that God created him for this, or even that God "unconditionally elected" him for this. In my opinion, this man was somehow "predisposed" to be the right man for the job and God used him.
c'mon 2sparrow, the big picture here is what God says, not what you think God says, read what the word says, God says he hated Esau, I explained why this was said, Esua sold his birth right for a bowl of Micky-dees chili soup, and was not diligent i his offering to God. Esua did not receive the covenant blessing, as he should have, but it was given to Jacob. God knew before these two were born what would happen therefore, He allow the blessing to saty on Jacob becasue he knew Jacob would eb diligent
God knows the end before the beginning and all points in between before anything happen.
So what is the BIG PICTURE that I'm missing here concerning Ishmal and isaac, and Jacob and Esua as it relates to Romans 9: verses 1-14?
and Pharoah... you still haven't explianed what you are speaking about... or the big picture that I'm missing.?
2sparrow, what do you mean he was predisposed to be the right man for thew job. God said HE RAISED Phrahoah up for this same PURPOSE to show His power so that HIS NAME might declared throughout the earth.
ET, I posted the whole Potter story a while back in another thread and it explains the heart of our Father quite clearly. Just because the Potter may know what that vessel is created for and will turn out to be, does not mean that He pre-destined it for hell or the junk pottery pile. The destiny of the pottery is determined by it's condition and usefulness. (free will)
Final salvation is conditioned upon continuing in the way of faith and bringing forth the "fruit" of Christian living. Jesus said, "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit" (John 15:5). Those unfruitful ones who do not remain in Christ (presented here as a real possibility, if words have meaning) are "picked up, thrown into the fire and burned" (15:6).
Paul told the Colossians they were reconciled by Christ "holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation" (Col. 1:22). But he was careful to qualify that statement: "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (v.23).
Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"
How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), knowing the command is impossible to obey?
I am confused by your posts, ET, you seem to be agreeing with both sides of this pre-destined doctrine and because it is the internet, maybe I'm reading you wrong?
God is soverign and we are created in his image. Can you imagine purposely having a child for the sole purpose of evil or using them for evil. Yes, true satanists impregnate young girls for the purpose of sacrificing their babies, but they are EVIL. The girls have no say in it. I do not see my God this way and there has been enough scripture in these MANY Calvinist threads to make a case in the Supreme court.
I will get lengthy on this subject one time and leave it for "him who has ears to hear"..... to chew on.
Cited: Auburn education~
"Moses said, "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach" (Deut. 30:11). What of Total Inability here? Are we to assume that all of the hearers had received the miracle of Efficacious Grace? Moses adds, "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways and the commands, decrees and laws..." (v.19).
Total Inability also seems to oppose the Bible teaching concerning hardness of heart. The Scriptures warn us that those who repeatedly trifle with sin may sear their consciences (1 Tim. 4:2), render themselves "past feeling" (Eph. 4:19) and enter into a hardening of the heart toward God and His truth. This is not a condition of birth, but seems to be a consequence of repeated sin.
Isaiah speaks of this condition: "Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa. 63:17) The hardening of the heart which precludes reverence of God is here described as a condition that has come upon these people, probably as a judgment for rebellion. But Calvinists tell us that this condition - an invincible anti-God bent - is the birth-condition of all human beings.
Paul told the Colossians they were reconciled by Christ "holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation" (Col. 1:22). But he was careful to qualify that statement: "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (v.23).
"It is impossible," wrote the author of Hebrews, "for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" (Heb. 6:4-6).
For the most part, it seems likely that Christians will persevere in their faith until the end. But that does not preclude the possibility of forsaking that narrow way leading to life. We must be on guard, as the Scriptures warn us repeatedly, but we have ample reason to be hopeful if we are following Christ.
Calvinism is one more illustration of the futility of systematic theology. God's truths, particularly relating to soteriology, are too lofty to be put into concise formula. The Five Points of Calvinism oversimplify the profound truths of God. They derive their force from proof-texts rather than the general tenor of Scripture.
More than that, the doctrines frequently create a spirit of division, elitism and theological snobbery. The system erects WALLS between believers. It creates a class of Christians within the church general who are supposedly part of a worthy "inner circle."
Many Calvinists read nothing but Reformed titles, hence these brethren seldom learn new perspectives. On the contrary, they are continually reaffirming their own "theological correctness." Such authors such as A. W. Pink, the Puritans, John Murray and such publishing companies as Banner of Truth become the sole staple for many. I say without intending offense that such exclusiveness differs little from that of Jehovah's Witnesses or other authoritarian groups."
TS has made himself quite clear with unlimited scriptures and explanations. James has done a lot of copy and paste along with his unmovable position, scriptures and comments. And as far as I'm concerned...Jesus would have been silent threads ago. In the multitude of words, sin is not absent.
Yeah, Josy you are reading it wrong, my view has been stated over and overagain throughout my posts that God has predestined(determined, declared, decreed, destined) that ALL WHO RECEIVE AND BELIEVE IN HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON WILL BE JOINT HEIRS WITH CHIRST.
If you read my posts you will find thoughtout them that I am saying the things God has so decreed in His word, all who receive Jesus Christ as their Savior, these are the elect, these are the ones who were callled and received Christ.
ALL WHO BELIVE IN CHRIST HAVE BEEN PREDESTINED FOR GOD'S ETERNAL glory. There is no cuch group as the elect outside of receiving Christ. Of course, we are told that God KNOWS who will receive and reject Christ, becasue God knows the end of the matter before the beginning, and the beginning before middle. BUT He has NOT chosen a certain group to be elected to receive Christ over another. I think you may not have been catching all of my posts in this matter.
I also, only wanted you to continue with the vessels of warth and the vessels of mercy, not that I don;t understand, but because many don't understand what you are speaking about. And since you were on a roll, but ended it short, I wanted you to continue explaining how God will indeed if He so desires to do so, create a vessel of wrath to let His power be known fitted for destruction. AND how He will also create vessels of mercy prepared for His glory to let the depth, length and width of His love and compassion be known... because God is sovereign like than, He can do it like that..lol
So I think maybe you have misread, my posts and have not bee following closely what I have been posting.
Also, it should eb know that Calvin did not get all that he wrote all wrong, but a large potion of this man made doctrine on election, if you have read his writings. and not what you read on the internet from what others say, you will find that Calvin himself was in searhc of knowing God on a higher level than what he knew him. Men AFTER Calvin's death have made his writings into doctrine, and not Calvin who have taken single words and made whole doctrines out of just one word.
Again, Joey when you look at systematic theology, what do you see?... man's interpretation and means of trying to understand God and His thoughts of what He says and is talking about.
How does systemtic theology work when gathering a spiritual knowledge, and understanding and insight about God?
Again, this is man's way of trying to figure out God without coming face to face with Him up close and personal.
You asked why I disagreed with you. Didn't I supply you with references to read?
Esau became the father of a great nation and people, the Edomites. This is how God blessed him. However he was not to be the father of the chosen people to whom the law was given, through whom the Messiah would come and through whom God would manifest Himself to the world.
You stated Ishmael was Israel but not true Israel. This is impossible : Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. Ishamael fathered 12 sons who became leaders of 12 warrior tribes. Isaac had two sons Jacob (Israel) and Esau. From Jacob, (Israel) came the 12 tribes of Israel. So you can see Ishmael is Israel's uncle and has no part in Israel as his bloodline branches off from Abraham in another direction before Israel was born.
As for the Pharoah, I made it quite clear you are speculating as to why God chose to raise this particular man up as Pharoah. The scripture doesn't day why this particular man was used, yet you do. This means you have gone beyond the revelation of Scripture.
2saprrow, I think you're missing the big picture as to what Roman chpater 9 is all about.
Ishmal was Abraham's son by the flesh, Isaac was the promised son. Yes, God blessed Ishaml as a great nation, but Isaac was thorugh whom God made the promise would come... before either child was born.
Anyway, Romans 9, tell us all about God making his own choices, decrees, and declaraton, and how he does it without permission from man, according to His own glory and plans and eternal purpose based on the events He knows are to take place in the future, present, and pasted..
anywayzzzzz, this is only going in circles if Roman chapter 9 can't be compared to, and there is only suface understanding as how God choose.// and chose, and how He does as He pleases with whom He has chosen ..
