Based on what scripture teaches us, God is not through with Israel. There will be a remnant saved, the covenant promises God made with Abraham and David will be fulfill in its fullness.
SavedInChrist, I still believe that those verses you're referencing happen before the second coming. I believe they have even already happened. I think you guys may have some confused time-lines. History speaks for itself. Do you think it was a coincidence that the Jews scattered throughout the nations and were the center of the persecution during WW2? Do you think it strange that they were all gathered back together and given their homeland back afterward? Gathered from all the nations? God did save Israel from the nations and gave them back their land, I just think you're taking the "God saved them all" to mean "God gave them all salvation", and that may not be what those verses are saying. Anyway. It's what I believe and I would appreciate the insults to my intelligence to stop if you want me to continue to take you all seriously. I didn't see any one of you standing over my shoulder, so I'm not sure where you're getting this "you don't read" thing. I have reasons for my belief, I have scriptures for my beliefs, I have historical proof for my beliefs, and I can and did read every verse you have posted. So shake the dust off your feet, or whatever you need to do. I have the bad habit of believing what I read in the bible.
If, in my last post to you, you felt I insulted your intelligence, I apologize. It was not my intent. But c'mon... asking if God snaps his fingers in order to bring salvation to Israel is not exactly the best way to approach a question or response to this conversation. If you have Scripture for your belief, I'd like to see it. It would add more to what we are discussing.
If those events in the Scriptures provided have already happened, when did God "make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee"? Which nations did God scatter Israel to? Do those nations still exist? If they do, then that passage did not come to pass. Those nations where Israel was persecuted in during WWII still exist. If you have historical proof that God made a full end to those nations, I'd like to see it.
"Israel can mean 3 different things. National, Spiritual ( Those of faith) or Jesus."
So which of those do you apply to Romans 11:25?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Does Israel in the above verse apply to National, Spiritual or Jesus?
25: from glancing at it i would assume is the remnant that will be saved.
26: And in this way All of Israel will be saved, as it is written then a quote from Isa 59:20 ("And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression," declares the LORD.)
This shows that the all of Israel to be saved is those of Israel who turn from transgression.
I appreciate your comments, but let me share this with you, so that we will have a clearerr spiritual understanding as to what Paul is saying regarding those two verses you quoted in Romans chapter (: verses 6-7.
Just In case, you miss something, or I missed something in what Paul is saying, because its important to know what he's is talking about, and not assume what you THINK he's talking about in trying to make your point. I will post the verses starting with verse 1-7.
Romans Chapter 9:Verses1-5: "I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises: of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over ALL, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Verses 6-9: BUT it is not that the word Of God has taken no effect. For they are not ALL Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham. BUT,"IN ISAAC your seed shall (will) be called. That is to say, those who are the children of the flesh, these ARE NOT THE CHLDREN OF GOD (ishmael's children). BUT the children of the PROMISE ARE COUNTED AS THE SEED (Isaac's children). For this is the WORD OF PROMISE: AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
So, Zaophagios, now that you have read Romans 9"verses 1-9 in context and not just as the two scriptures verses you presented out of context in support of your point of view.. What is this Paul is telling us?... you tell me whether or not you even have enough room to make a statement of arrogance to me. It appears to me, that you are not even in context of what Paul is talking about, nad yet you're trying to make your point by using these verses to prove that all of Israel will not be saved, when these verses says no such things...
So what is Paul talking about here? It sounds to me that it is very clear that he is talking about Abraham's physical and spiritual desecents. Not one word God promised will ever fail, you should now this. The Jews rejected God, but God never rejected the Jews because they are His people, His children, and Paul is talking about Abraham's physicall desendants and his spiritual descendant. The promise and the covenant, the blessings and the glory Israel will receive when she is retored. The promise was not made to Ishmael seed, but to Isaac's seed, nor was the covenant made to Esau but to Jacob.
And if you would atke serious time to continue reading and studying Romasn chapter 9, you will find that this whole chapter is explaining the soverign purpose, will and hand of God to do as He please with whom He pleases, where He pleases, how He please, and when He pleases.
And thus, ALL JEWS WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST AND ALL THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST WILL INDEED COME TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST, BECAUSE GOD IS A GOD OF PROMISE AND HIS WORD WILL NOT, AND CANNOT BE CHANGED, NOR RETUNR BACK TO HIM VOID.
Just as ALL who are not JEWS and are GENTILES who do not believe in Christ now, have an opportunity to believe and be saved. Some will belive and some will not, but God's promises STANDS. And its not God's fault if people do not have faith to believe and receive.
God promised Abraham a son who was Isaac, not Ishmael, and all from the seed of Isaac will be saved, everybody else including Ihmael's seed, has been adopted into the family of God, when we believe in Jesus Christ, and there will be some saved and some will no be saved.
God made an oath against Himself from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and it will not be broken.
Zaophagios, I'm Sorry, you can't see this... but I know God will thorugh the pwoer of His Holy Spirit, will open your eyes and enlighten your spiitual eyes to see into His word. again to say to you as I did to Mark,, maybe its becasue you're not READING seeking understanding in order to gain spiritual knowledge from God through the Holy Spirit, and there is a spiritual block somewhere, becasue maybe you're trying to fit your STUFF into God's truths of what Hehas already said.
Nnevetheless, Zaophagios, if you find what I've post necessitates you posting an arrogant statement what I say or me, then I say to you, go for what you know to do ... because what I know to be truth of God's isn't approved by your opinions or thought, and as I always say, I didn't write the WORD... you see, God beat me to it... and I can't even go before Judge Judy and sue Him for copyright infringement...peace out:peace:
PRAY FOR THE PECAE OF JERUSELM! MAY THEY PROSPER WHO LOVE HER. AND THOSE WHO PRAY FOR HER, MAY PEACE BE WITHIN YOUR HOMES AND IN YOUR CITIES.:peace:
I'm not going for your throat, I'm going for that spirit of blindness that is preventing you from seeing, hearring and receiving God's word. So don't you dare go there with me, I will not suger coat my words to you in spiritual matters, because that will not help you come to the light. We are to rebuke darkness, not pamper it. So get a grip and dust yourslef off...:boxing:
I don't know what is hindering you from seeing what the scriptures are saying about the restoration of Israel, but I know God will bring forth illumination sooner or later, and you will feel a weigh lifted fromy our spirit bringing you into spiritual knowledge.:glow::yay:
Your arrogance is in the fact your making claims that your interpretation is 100% true and their is no way it can be wrong. This debate has been going on for centuries and will continue till My Lords and Saviors return. Their are problems with interpretations on both sides no matter which side you are on.
Zaophagios, sorry, but I can't find any place wherein I have made any such claim that my intrepertation is 100% truth, outside of what the Bible so clearly states.
But I will make claim of confidnece in knowing and taking a stand 100% on what IS WRITTEN ... and as Paul says, nothing can come up against the truth, except for the truth its self.
There is no spiritual debate whether what is written is truth or a lie, or what God has said in this matter or what His word means. There may be a debate between man trying to make God 's word fit into their own thoguhts and opinions, of interpretations. But if one believes in the Bible as being the infallibale word of God, there is no debate. God said it, and that settles it! PERIOD!
Again, the best resource for spiritual understanding and knowledge into God's word is READING (not skimming thorugh) BUT READING AND STUDYING GOD'S WORD (spending quality time searching and researching) the Book of Isaiah, and the Book of Romans, this will bring enlightenment through the Holy Spirit.:glow:
I would like to encourage and exhort you and Mark , that you both stay rooted and grounded in your reading and studies of the God's word, the Bible, so you will know what it is that you speak.:hearts:
My historical proof would be that the governments that persecuted the Israelites no longer exist. Germany and every other country on the wrong side of WWII are the same in name only. It's basically a geographical name for a place on a map, not the ideals and governing principles that brought about the events of WWII. They were all defeated. Anyway...
2 Thess. 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
God will destroy the unrighteous with fire at Jesus's second coming.
1 Thess. 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
None of the wicked will escape destruction when Jesus comes.
Math. 24:37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Luke 17:26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Jer. 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 25:27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you. 28And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink. 29For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. 30Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. 34Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel. 35And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape.
When Jesus comes again all the wicked will be destroyed and all the saved will be caught up to meet Him in the clouds. He will take us to the New Jerusalem(that He has been preparing for us in heaven) until the millennium is finished. Then we will descend in the New Jerusalem onto a desolate earth , He will resurrect all the wicked for the judgment, Satan will be released and tempt them into attacking the holy city, and God will bring them to their second death. All the unsaved die twice. That's an important point to look at. Then He will recreate the earth for us to inhabit for eternity.
So in case you didn't read the verses or in case you don't know your bible very well, I'm saying that all the wicked will be destroyed at Christ's coming and we will be in heaven for the 1,000 years. There will be no wicked people to rule over, and there will be no earthly kingdom until God recreates the earth. That's what I believe. I believe you are ignoring and misinterpreting more scripture than you claim I am. Does that mean I get to rebuke you? Can you see the pointlessness? It's not pointless to share your beliefs. It's pointless to try and tell me you have all the truth and perfect interpretation when it looks to me like you're blinded. It doesn't seem like you're trying to interpret the bible at all. You just have your verses you claim support your belief and when someone offers up a completely conflicting verse you seem to just ignore it and keep pointing at the verse that supports your belief instead of understanding them together. The bible does not contradict itself, so there must be something wrong with our interpretation.
Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods(knowledge), and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold(Christ's humble, self-sacrificing character) tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment(Christ's purity and salvation), that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness(Arrogant and self-serving character) do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
