Thread: Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 08:53 AM
Whilst there is more to Calvinism than five points, these are the major points on which Calvinism rests. They are called the T-U-L-I-P. Point 1, Total Depravity; Point 2, Unconditional Election; Point 3, Limited Attonement; Point 4, Irresistable Grace; and Point 5, Perseverence of the Saints.
Point 1, Total Depravity. Simply put, this doctrine says that all mankind, since the fall, has been totally depraved. That man, both individually and generally, is totally debased and corrupt, that he is unable to think or do anything good outside of God's Providence.
Now what is my problem with this? It's the word, "total." Certainly the Bible teaches the depravity of man, but I don't see the total aspect of it. You see the scripture is generalized when it speaks of the wickedness of man. For example, Genesis 6.5 says, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." That sounds kinda bad. But it is still a general statement regarding the moral condition of mankind. Obviously, it wasn't individual. Because in verse 8 we are told that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Was Noah totally depraved? Nowhere does the text indicate that. Of course the Calvinist would say that God gave grace to Noah. But that is unsupported by the text as well. The idea that Noah obeyed God suggests there was some good in him. Or maybe Noah wasn't included in God's assessment in verse 5. And, if Noah wasn't included in verse 5, then that shows the generallity of the statement. No matter how you try to explain it, Noah was different.
We can look at mankind today, with all the murders, the wars, the rapes, the threats from one government to another suggesting that annhilation is right around the corner, and conclude that man is depraved, eventhough there are some righteous people on the earth, of which can be said God found grace in His eyes.
I once knew an atheist, and he was till he died. Yet, this man was the one of the most giving man I ever knew. I use to visit his used bookstore, and one day I told him I was thirsty, and asked if I could have a glass of water. Without hesitation, he brought me a glass of water. I remember, one time someone was looking at a book, and it was marked $.50. They only had a quarter. He sold them that book for a quarter. He use to donate books to various charities when they had book drives, which they in turn sold with the proceeds going to that charity. Yet, by Calvinistic definition, he was totally depraved. Of course, they would probably say that eventhough he was totally depraved, he filled some purpose in God's Providence.
The problem I have with the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is that it can neither be proved or disproved. Certainly, in general the scriptures do teach the depravity of man, but not individually. But then again, there is God's providence. I know there was a time I was financially in very bad shape. A man took pity on me and helped me. Later, he was charge with some kind of financial crime, whether embezzelment, or something like that. He had two businesses, and he stole money from one business to keep the other going. He didn't pay taxes, nor social security for any of his employees. He took the money off their checks, but somehow, it never got to the IRS. Later, of course, the IRS came after the employees for their money as we are responsible to pay our taxes, even though there is no law that says so.
Oh yes, I could go on and point out indications that man is depraved, but that even a depraved man can do something good.
Decide for yourself. Is man totally depraved? I personally don't think so.
Point 2, Unconditional Election. Several years ago, I did a study on the words elect, chose, chosen, as they pertain to this doctrine. What I found is that those words pertain to Christ, to the apostles, and to the church. Never to anyone individually, except Christ.
The fact is we are chosen in Christ, and we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 states, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." This verse makes it plain, those whom are chosen are chosen in Him, in Christ. Outside of Christ, no one is chosen. Therefore, we must then understand how someone is chosen in Christ, and that is where the conditions come in. Salvation is the process by which we are chosen in Christ.
Condition #1, believing. John 3.16, a familiar passage to most. But let's go a bit further and include verses 17 and 18. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through might be saved. He that believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name in the only begotten Son of God." There can be no doubt that according to these verses, believing is very definitely a condition for salvation. And you cannot be elect without being saved, and being in Christ.
Condition #2, repentance. Luke 13.3 & 5 say the same thing. "I tell you no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Wel that's pretty well straight forward. No repentance, no salvation, you will perish.
Condition #3, confession. Romans 10:9 states. "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart brings salvation. That's simple enough.
Some folks add water baptism as a condition of salvation. One thing for certain, salvation is not unconditional. And since salvation is of itself a condition of election, it's safe to say election is not unconditional.
Point 3, Limited Attonement. This is my favorite. Why? Because, it's the easiest to refute. Let me tell you, the five points are like dominoes. When one falls, they all do.
Keep in mind, these five points of Calvinism are all connected to their doctrine of particular election, and their doctrine of particular redemption. Without these five points, those two doctrines are gone. It's like, you tell a big lie. Then you have to create a bunch of little lies to support the big lie. And in this point of limited atomement, the lie is exposed.
Limited atonement is just that. Before the foundation of the world God the Father predetermined to send Christ in to the world at just the right time to become a sacrifice for the sins of a select few, called the elect.
Now the truth. In John 12.32, Jesus said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL to Myself." Notice the word "ALL." This is my own translation. In the KJV, they add the word men in italics. If you have read the preface of the KJV, you know that words in italics are added words to clarify the text. Take the word out, and you have what the original states. You have the same in the NKJV. Without the added words, you might ask all what. But with the added words, you don't need to. In answer to the question, "All what?" Without the extra word we simply have to look at the text. What was Jesus talking about? So let's look at the text. John 12. 30-32. "Jesus answered and said, 'This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all world to Myself.'" You can see, I added the word world in italics. In the the text, Jesus is talking about the judgement of the world (kosmos). Then he refers to the manner in which He would die. If you're going to add a word, it should be a word in keeping with the text. So the message of Jesus here is, "If I be crucified, I will draw all the world to Myself." That sure doesn't sound like limited atonement to me. I realize there are some Calvinistic Greek scholars that would disagree with this definition. But the Greek word, pantos does not support the idea of any kind of limitation. According to the Greek books that I have, the word means, wholly, entirety, every.
Then there is I John 2.2, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." Again, the Greek word, holos, translated "whole" shows absolutlely no limitation. I Timothy 4.3-6 teaches that God "desires all men to be saved," and that Jesus "gave Himself a ransom for all." That doesn't sound like only a select few. I believe it is safe to say that in no way does scripture teach limited atonement.
Point 4, Irresistable Grace. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, with irresistable grace, everyone should be saved, since it is impossible to resist the grace of God. But, Galatians 5.4 states, "You have become eastranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Fallen from irresistable grace! How can that be? Those trying to be justified by the law are also estranged from Christ. Doesn't sound like irresistable grace to me. And, that leads to the next point.
Point 5, Perseverance of the Saints. This suggests that all saints, through God's unconditional love and irresistable grace, that all saints will be equipped to always persevere. If so, then why does scripture warn about an apostasy? You can't fall from something unless you are in it. In II Thessalonians 2, Paul wrote about the coming of the Lord, and wrote, "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..." Then there is the pronouncment by Paul that those who try to be justified by the Law, "you have fallen from grace." Saints falling from grace. This shows two things. God's grace is not irresistable even among the saints, and therefore, having fallen from grace, they are not able to pesevere.
There you have it. A discussion on the five points which are a part of a system of theology known as Calvinism.
PREDESTINATION
Certainly scripture teaches predestination. Where Calvinism and scripture part ways is what God's predestination is based on. Calvinism teaches that God loved his elect before the foundation of the world, and saved only those few. But that is not what scripture teaches.
For the truth we go to Romans 8.29 & 30, which states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined. these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Romans 8.29 plainly teaches that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge. What does this word, "foreknew," mean? It is translated from the Greek, proginosko, which means, according to Vine, "to know before." It does not mean, "to love before," as Calvinists teach. If it did, the word would have to be, proagape, but as you can see, it's not.
Vine explains, "God's foreknowledge involves His electing grace, but does not preclude human will. He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation."
Ephesians 1.5 & 11 further teaches that He "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." "And it is in Christ, "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
So the doctrine of predestination properly is; according to the foreknowledge of God we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, Jesus. Through predestination in Christ, we are called, we are justified, we are glorified, we are adopted as sons by Jesus Christ, through whom we obtain an inheritance, according to the pupose, good pleasure, and counsel of God's will.
A part of God's omniscience is His foreknowledge. God foreknows all things. Calvinism teaches that God foreknows all things because He has preplanned all things. However, I see no support for this in scripture.
I do not know were you are getting this idea of God is forcing people to sin. God is just allowing people to be who they are and that is sinful. We do not need God to force us to be who we already are. By God not allowing Pharaoh to be regenerated he is in essence not allowing him to do good so Pharaoh will continue in his ways of evil. I never argued the means by which God is hardening Pharaoh's heart either. No matter what means God is using it is still God who is doing it.
Most Calvinists believe in bondage of the will. What that means is we are a slave to sin and can only sin. We could not possibly want to do good. It takes regeneration of the heart before man can know to do good. I do not believe free will has existed since Adam took a bite of the apple.
If free will is real that means their are two ways man could get to heaven. It means its possible for man to do good from the day he is born.
As for God not being selfish you should read the first commandment. Worship no god but me. That seems pretty selfish does it not?
Yes that is true concerning the lord's part, that does not cover man's part, and PHAROAH HAS ABSOLUTELTY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHOSEVER WILL IN OTHERWORDS MAN'S RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL, IN Anything else is man made doctrine. as you speak of
This has to be the craziest argument in history. We have 10 people saying the same things in different ways and still arguing about it. The only one with something different is Mark.
Mark, show me your point in scripture about Pharaoh. It is only fair since everything is proven by it. The bible tells us God hardened his heart to show His power....why doubt that? God does not lie.
As for the rest, I think everyone here has said we do eventually have to choose to follow Jesus to be saved, so what is the problem?
So...you do believe God is selfish? Ok...that explains a lot then.
John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Did Jesus ever do anything selfish, or was His life the personification of selflessness? Does God ask us to worship only Him because of His selfishness? Or is it because that is the only way He can save us? Interpret the bible with Christ's character and you see a loving selfless God. Interpret it with "selfishness" and God is a arrogant, self-loving, tyrannical, megalomaniac...basically everything the world says He is.
OCCUPATION: Maker, ruler, judge of heavens and earth
ADDRESS: Everywhere, particularly �the heavens�
CHARGE: Being selfish
EVIDENCE:
1. Hell, Fires of. Billions will suffer there, and the Defendant says he will do it to �display his wrath.� Defendant even threatens that �they will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb� (Revelation 14:10).
2. Intolerance of non-Christian religions. He calls them idolatry and says he will punish them.
3. Intolerance of numerous behaviors that people enjoy.
4. Insistence that people focus all attention on Defendant all the time. Intolerant of those who do otherwise.
5. Multiple unexpected outbursts of anger.
a. Nadab & Abihu, whom Defendant burned with fire while they offered sacrifices in Defendant�s temple (Leviticus 10:1-7).
b. Uzzah, whom Defendant struck dead while trying to keep Defendant's ark from falling to the ground (1 Chronicles 13:9-11).
c. Ananias and Sapphira, whom Defendant killed while they were donating money to Defendant's church (Acts 5:1-11).
d. Christians in Corinth whom Defendant killed because they ate their communion bread too quickly (1 Corinthians 11:29-32).
6. Repeated remarks that everything must happen for Defendants own glory (1 Corinthians 10:31). Refusal to share glory with others (Isaiah 48:11).
DEFENDANTS PLEA: Guilty as charged.
1. The Bible says God is supreme in God�s own heart.
There are lots of passages in the Bible that honestly trouble a lot of readers�passages where God kills people, punishes people, says things that seem intolerant, offensive, even selfish. Whenever a passage in the Bible rubs us the wrong way, it should give us pause, because the problem is not with the Bible, but with us.
What is it we don�t understand about God�s character that makes some of God�s actions seem so unfair? There is one simple truth that�once grasped�makes us see things as God sees them and unlocks a renewed understanding of God and God�s ways. One single passion drives God�s heart. That passion, as teachers like Augustine and Jonathan Edwards have helped us to see, is this: God�s primary concern in everything he does is to bring glory to himself.
God is chiefly concerned with his own fame. God is self-centered. Selfish, one might even say. If there's one thing we know from the Bible, it's that God is chiefly concerned with the honor of his name�just look at the prayer Jesus taught us to pray (Matthew 6:9-13). Before ever getting to us and our needs, we pray for God�s name to be honored, for God�s rule (kingdom) to be furthered and for God�s will to be done.
Even when God saves sinners from their sins�a supreme act of generosity�God insists that he's doing it for his own benefit more than for ours. Observe how God speaks of salvation in Isaiah 48:11: "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another."
2. There can be no Greater Good than God by definition.
Think about it. If it is humanity�s highest purpose to glorify God, how can we expect God to have a lesser purpose? Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength. God has not disobeyed this commandment. The first commandment was to have no other gods before the LORD. God is not an idolater. As John Piper explains, the most passionate heart for God in all the universe is God's heart. God's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy himself forever.
Read the words of J.I. Packer:
If it is right for man to have the glory of God as his goal, can it be wrong for God to have the same goal? If man can have no higher purpose than God�s glory, how can God? If it is wrong for man to seek a lesser end than this, it would be wrong for God, too. The reason it cannot be right for man to live for himself, as if he were God, is because he is not God. Those who insist that God should not seek His glory in all things are really asking that He cease to be God. And there is no greater blasphemy than to will God out of existence.
God is ultimate, not us. And true religion ultimately exists not for humanity, but for God. This is only reasonable. It is wrong for a man to be self-centered because that man is not actually the center of the universe. God is, always has been, and always shall be the center of the universe.
Were God to act as if another were central to the universe, that �other� would be God. It is wrong for man to judge, as if he were God, because he isn't God. But God is God, and it is right for him to perform the functions that are only worthy of God. Besides, God�s perfect character is the very standard of good and evil. Whatever God desires is good. Self-centeredness�what the Bible calls God�s deity (Romans 1)�is of the essence of God�s being God.
3. Rejecting God�s self-centeredness is the heart of idolatry.
To insist that God exist for my benefit is the core assumption behind all idolatry. We make God over in our image so that he can bend to our desires, not us to his. Jonathan Edwards suggested that until God's selfishness is precisely what attracts us to God, we have not yet begun to love God at all, but only ourselves. The heart of true worship is in line with God�s heart, and wants nothing more than for the King to be magnified. Let us remember Henry Blamires� warning:
If we try to change the face of eternal God, we indulge in the supreme idolatry, beside which perhaps, in the scale of sin, adultery weighs like a feather and murder like a farthing. Yet the sin is committed among us, within Christendom, within the Church� maybe within ourselves; for are we sure, after all, that we prayed to the true God this morning?
Idolatry, in its most basic form, is making God into an instrument rather than an end. All true evangelism and every true apologetic MUST challenge the core idolatry of the human heart. Martin Luther noted that if we preach the gospel at every point except that point at which it�s currently under attack, then we have not preached the gospel of Jesus Christ.
4. God alone is not an Instrument.
Augustine explained that everything in the universe is one of two things. It is an instrument or it is an end. An instrument is something that has a purpose greater than itself�a function for which it exists and to which it is subservient. That purpose or function is the end for which it exists. Everything, Augustine explained, is an instrument. Pencils exist to write, toasters to make toast, mirrors to show a reflection. Even people are instruments�we have a purpose that is higher than ourselves. We have a function, a reason for our existence, a meaning to life. That purpose, or end, is the glory of God. We exist for God, to be agents by which his perfections are displayed.
Only God is not an instrument. God exists in himself, by himself, and for himself. He was not created, so he has no function beyond himself. He alone is the end for which all other things were created. Christians need to be extra careful not to make God into a means to a greater end of human salvation. To say that God exists to achieve some higher purpose of salvation is to commit the ultimate idolatry�to make God into an instrument for some purpose higher than himself. God is not an instrument, but the end for which we exist. This is why the English revivalist George Whitefield cried, �Let the name of Whitefield perish, so long as God is glorified!� Our salvation is the instrument to the higher end of praising God (1 Peter 2:9)!
5. Only God�s glory can answer every question.
The quest for truth ends when the seeker finds the answer to the questions of life�the one final answer that ultimately resolves every other question. The ultimate answer to every question�after all else is said and done�is �to glorify of God�:
Why did God create us? Isaiah 43:6-7
Why did God rescue the Israelites from Egypt? Psalm 106:7-8
Why did God raise up Pharaoh? Romans 9:17
Why did God defeat Pharaoh? Exodus 14:4
Why did God spare Israel in the wilderness? Ezekiel 20:14
Why will God not reject believers? 1 Samuel 12:20-22
Why did God restore Israel after the exile? Ezekiel 36:22-23, 32
Why does God answer our prayers? John 14:13
Why does God forgive sins? Isaiah 43:25
How could David ask God for forgiveness? Psalm 25:11
What is the Holy Spirit's ministry? John 16:14
What should motivate everything we do? 1 Corinthians 10:31
Why did God strike Herod dead? Acts 12:23
Why is Jesus coming back? 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10
What is God's plan for the earth? Habakkuk 2:14
6. God�s glory and humanity�s good are not mutually exclusive.
This teaching tends to hit people like a ton of bricks. Why? Is this a terrible notion? Not at all�this is it a cause for joy! If what we really want is for our Father to be honored, then no teaching should thrill us more! God�s self-centered majesty is what I find most beautiful about God�that God is God and there is no other! More than one Christian has been surprised by the joy he has experienced after giving his life over to God. Think about it�If we were created to glorify God, then glorifying God is True Humanism. We�re fulfilling our humanity most completely when we�re living for God. We satisfy the deepest longings of our hearts when we seek our satisfaction in the Lord�s perfections, base our dignity on his honor, ground our thinking in his wisdom, and give our lives over to furthering his fame. To state that human beings are a means to an end of God�s glory is not to lower humanity�s position, but to raise it up to its true position of dignity.
7. For One rightly self-centered, God sure has been generous.
Indeed, God had no obligation to save anybody, but generously chose to glorify himself not merely by displaying his justice against guilty sinners, but by displaying his mercy to sinners as well. The Lord is even referred to in the Scriptures as �the giving God.� Realize this; if God is the Greatest Good, then what is the most generous gift God could give? Himself. As Jesus tells us, �For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life� (John 3:16). Indeed, throughout the Scriptures, God gives himself to his people in a binding covenant, so that He belongs to us and we belong to him.
HOMEWORK
Think about these discussion questions over the next week. You may want to jot down your thoughts.
1. A friend remarks, �I don�t see how a good God could possibly have created a world full of so much suffering.� How would you respond?
2. How does the Christian belief in an historical Fall make sense out of the world we live in
3. Why did the instructor say that free will is only a partial answer to the problem of evil? What�s the problem with the assertion that a creature who is free to sin is better than one who is not free to sin?
4. Why do you think people feel so uncomfortable saying that God allows evil in his plan in order to bring glory to himself?
5. The instructor stated that the rejection of God�s self-centeredness is the heart of human idolatry. Why is this so? Why is it only reasonable that God be self-centered.
6. A co-worker says, �I don�t see how God can tell me what to do. What right does he have to meddle in my life?� How do you respond? How could you point him to Jesus in the midst of this?
7. This apologetic lesson is as likely to make a believer hate Christianity more as it is likely to convert him. Why? If true evangelism has not taken place until you�ve challenged the idolatry of the human heart, then what should we make of gospel presentations that make sinners feel good but not challenged? Some have said to me, �If you teach God�s self-centered glory, no sinner will come to Jesus.� By human means, this is true�unless what happens???
:ROFL: Leon, you're so right. I have just been reading what is posted and getting a good laugh. Everyone is saying the same thing, over and over, just rephrasing and using different words according to their own limited understanding of what they think Calivn said or meant in his writings.
How many times can you discuss grace, election, chosen, called, and whatever else? Salavtion has nothing whatsoever to do with what Calvin or Arminius or anyone else has to say, nor their thoughts. God has said what He has to say, those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ by faith and receive the gospel unto repentance are the called, shosen, elect, royal pristhood, chidlren of God, chosen, etc., and that settles it! How many articles can be posted all saying the same things about what Calvin or SArminus said , when we don't know even if they were saved and have their names written in the Lmabs book of Life. They only wrote what they felt God ahd givent othem, Arminus studied under Calvin, and then broke away from him after years of Calvin being his nmentor, o what;'s upw ith all this Calvin vs. Arminius??:bouncy::toomuch:... y'all to funnnee :yay::zzzz:
This Calvin and Arminus stuff just goes around in circles never ending , and never a conclusion of the matter. If you did a search on this forum you wil find the same topic going around in circles:ROFL:
Heres something to compare and contrast with Calvin and Arminius theories... Jesus's five points and salvation no one discusses
1. Repent.
2. Faith,
3. Believe with your heart,
4.Confession of your Faith by delcaring the name of Jesus Christ with your mouth.
Whilst there is more to Calvinism than five points, these are the major points on which Calvinism rests. They are called the T-U-L-I-P. Point 1, Total Depravity; Point 2, Unconditional Election; Point 3, Limited Attonement; Point 4, Irresistable Grace; and Point 5, Perseverence of the Saints.
Point 1, Total Depravity. Simply put, this doctrine says that all mankind, since the fall, has been totally depraved. That man, both individually and generally, is totally debased and corrupt, that he is unable to think or do anything good outside of God's Providence.
Now what is my problem with this? It's the word, "total." Certainly the Bible teaches the depravity of man, but I don't see the total aspect of it. You see the scripture is generalized when it speaks of the wickedness of man. For example, Genesis 6.5 says, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." That sounds kinda bad.
James replies:
That sounds kinda bad? LOL! How could it sound worse???
Total inability or total depravity does NOT mean mankind is as bad as he can possibly be.
Samson, the word "total" on total Depravity or total inability, means that sin has effected EVERY PART of man, including his will, Total, means "every part", or totality of his being.
Samson continues:
We can look at mankind today, with all the murders, the wars, the rapes, the threats from one government to another suggesting that annhilation is right around the corner, and conclude that man is depraved, eventhough there are some righteous people on the earth, of which can be said God found grace in His eyes.
The problem I have with the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is that it can neither be proved or disproved.
James replies:
I disagree! If fallen mankind HAD a free will, then I would expect at LEAST a 50% conversion rate! Why do so many people hear the gospel and reject it????
Because they love sin, and their will is ENSLAVED to it!
Jesus said that many are called but few are chosen, and that is what we see in the world.
Samson continues:
Certainly, in general the scriptures do teach the depravity of man, but not individually.
James replies:
Really???
Psalm 51:5; Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did
my mother conceive me.
Mark 7:21-23; "For from within, OUT OF THE HEART OF MAN, come evil
deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these
evil things come from within, and they defile a man."
Samson continues:
Decide for yourself. Is man totally depraved? I personally don't think so.
James replies:
I think it would be more accurate to say:
Does fallen mankind have the ability to come to God on their own?
Samson continues
Point 2, Unconditional Election. Several years ago, I did a study on the words elect, chose, chosen, as they pertain to this doctrine. What I found is that those words pertain to Christ, to the apostles, and to the church. Never to anyone individually, except Christ.
James replies:
Well, now, wait a minute! "the church" is composed of INDIVIDUALS!
Haggai 2:23: "On that day, says the Lord of hosts, I will take you O
Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, says the Lord, and make
you like a signet ring; for I have CHOSEN you, says the Lord of
hosts."
Luke 18:7: And will not God vindicate HIS ELECT, who cry out to him
day and night?
Samson continues:
The fact is we are chosen in Christ, and we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 states, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." This verse makes it plain, those whom are chosen are chosen in Him, in Christ. Outside of Christ, no one is chosen. Therefore, we must then understand how someone is chosen in Christ, and that is where the conditions come in. Salvation is the process by which we are chosen in Christ.
James replies:
Well you are in luck! There IS a ninth chapter of Romans!
You can go there and SEE for yourself that God chose WHOM He would save and whom He would not!
Samson continues:
Condition #1, believing.
James replies:
No, that is wrong! That is NOT a condition, that is a RESULT of being chosen! Ephesians 2:8,9 says that faith is a gift from God.
NO ONE would ever believe in Jesus UNLESS the Father gave the gift of faith FIRST!
Samson continues:
John 3.16, a familiar passage to most. But let's go a bit further and include verses 17 and 18. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through might be saved. He that believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name in the only begotten Son of God." There can be no doubt that according to these verses, believing is very definitely a condition for salvation. And you cannot be elect without being saved, and being in Christ.
James replies:
Well now you SWITCHED subjects! First you say, believing is a precondition for being chosen, and NOW you are saying believing is a condition for salvation.
You are wrong on the first count and right on the second.
Condition #2, repentance.
James replies:
WRONG AGAIN. GOD SAVES, GOD CHOOSES, and GOD GRANTS REPENTANCE ONLY TO HIS ELECT.
1 Peter 1:2: ....chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified
by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling of His
blood...
Ezekiel 36:26,27 A NEW HEART I will give you, and a NEW SPIRIT I
will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of
stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within
you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe
my ordinances. (compare Ezekiel 11:19)
Acts 5:31: "God exalted him at his right hand a Leader and Savior,
to GIVE REPENTANCE unto life."
Samson continues:
Luke 13.3 & 5 say the same thing. "I tell you no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Wel that's pretty well straight forward. No repentance, no salvation, you will perish.
James replies:
And the SAME Jesus also said in John 8 that "NO ONE CAN come to me UNLESS the father draws them."
Samson continues:
Condition #3, confession. Romans 10:9 states. "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart brings salvation. That's simple enough.
James replies:
and what is also simple is that Jesus said the NO ONE CAN SAY THAT EXCEPT by the power of the Holy Spirit!
Samson continues:
Some folks add water baptism as a condition of salvation. One thing for certain, salvation is not unconditional. And since salvation is of itself a condition of election, it's safe to say election is not unconditional.
James replies:
I am wondering if you have John 6 and Romans 9 in your bible?
Also, there are a lot of verses in Acts, you will have to ignore.
Samson continues:
Point 3, Limited Attonement. This is my favorite. Why? Because, it's the easiest to refute. Let me tell you, the five points are like dominoes. When one falls, they all do.
Keep in mind, these five points of Calvinism are all connected to their doctrine of particular election, and their doctrine of particular redemption. Without these five points, those two doctrines are gone. It's like, you tell a big lie. Then you have to create a bunch of little lies to support the big lie. And in this point of limited atomement, the lie is exposed.
Limited atonement is just that. Before the foundation of the world God the Father predetermined to send Christ in to the world at just the right time to become a sacrifice for the sins of a select few, called the elect.
James replies:
Hey you got it right! Like it says in Matthew:
Matthew 1:21: "...She will bear a son, and you shall call his name
Jesus, for he will SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins. '
Got that? " HIS PEOPLE", not everyone who ever lived.
Now the truth. In John 12.32, Jesus said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL to Myself." Notice the word "ALL." This is my own translation. In the KJV, they add the word men in italics. If you have read the preface of the KJV, you know that words in italics are added words to clarify the text. Take the word out, and you have what the original states. You have the same in the NKJV. Without the added words, you might ask all what. But with the added words, you don't need to. In answer to the question, "All what?" Without the extra word we simply have to look at the text. What was Jesus talking about? So let's look at the text. John 12. 30-32. "Jesus answered and said, 'This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all world to Myself.'" You can see, I added the word world in italics. In the the text, Jesus is talking about the judgement of the world (kosmos). Then he refers to the manner in which He would die. If you're going to add a word, it should be a word in keeping with the text. So the message of Jesus here is, "If I be crucified, I will draw all the world to Myself." That sure doesn't sound like limited atonement to me. I realize there are some Calvinistic Greek scholars that would disagree with this definition. But the Greek word, pantos does not support the idea of any kind of limitation. According to the Greek books that I have, the word means, wholly, entirety, every.
Then there is I John 2.2, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." Again, the Greek word, holos, translated "whole" shows absolutlely no limitation. I Timothy 4.3-6 teaches that God "desires all men to be saved," and that Jesus "gave Himself a ransom for all." That doesn't sound like only a select few. I believe it is safe to say that in no way does scripture teach limited atonement.
James replies:
Have you ever seen the Scripture list for this point????
The Arminian must rely on the "world" verses and the "all" verses. And they MUST mean "everyone who ever lived".
The problem is, two fold. first, if they demand that interpretation, then they have thirty other verses that contradict them. The Bible does not contradict itself.
Secondly, the word "all" hardly EVER means everyone who ever lived. The truth is, the "all" verses mean all of God's chosen people, because the very words they are reading are letters WRITTEN TO GROUPS OF CHRISTIANS. And the "world" verses mean "people from all over the world, not just Jews".
It was an entirely NEW concept that God would save people from all parts of the world and not just near the temple, and this NEW IDEA HAD TO BE TAUGHT.
Samson continues:
Point 4, Irresistable Grace. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, with irresistable grace, everyone should be saved, since it is impossible to resist the grace of God. But, Galatians 5.4 states, "You have become eastranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Fallen from irresistable grace! How can that be? Those trying to be justified by the law are also estranged from Christ. Doesn't sound like irresistable grace to me. And, that leads to the next point.
James replies:
Galatians 5:4 Paul is saying that they would be RENOUNCING God's grace by no longer relying on it. This is Paul warning them, and in verse 10 Paul shows he has confidence they will repent from this attitude, hence God's grace is irresitible.
And let's not forget, other verses that show this.
Ezekiel 36:26,27 A NEW HEART I will give you, and a NEW SPIRIT I
will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of
stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within
you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe
my ordinances. (compare Ezekiel 11:19)
Ephesians 2:1,5: and you HE MADE ALIVE, when you were dead through
the trespasses and sins...even when we were dead through our
trespasses, [God] made us ALIVE together with Christ....
Colossians 2:13: And you, who were dead in trespasses and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, GOD MADE ALIVE together with him,
having forgiven us all our trespasses.
God takes TOTALLY spiritually DEAD people and MAKES THEM COME ALIVE SPIRITUALLY. And when this happens to a person, their new desire is to NATURALLY want to repent and trust in Jesus.
Samson continues:
Point 5, Perseverance of the Saints. This suggests that all saints, through God's unconditional love and irresistable grace, that all saints will be equipped to always persevere. If so, then why does scripture warn about an apostasy? You can't fall from something unless you are in it. In II Thessalonians 2, Paul wrote about the coming of the Lord, and wrote, "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..." Then there is the pronouncment by Paul that those who try to be justified by the Law, "you have fallen from grace." Saints falling from grace. This shows two things. God's grace is not irresistable even among the saints, and therefore, having fallen from grace, they are not able to pesevere.
James replies:
God uses a variety of means to MAKE certain that His elect WILL persevere to the end. We are told to test ourselves, and God causes ups and downs in the lives of His people, and suffering, and joy, etc, etc.
Matthew 18:12-14: "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep,
and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on
the hills and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he
finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the
ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my
Father who is in heaven that ONE of these little ones SHOULD PERISH."
Romans 8:29,30: For those he FOREKNEW he also PREDESTINED to be
conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the
first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also
CALLED; and those whom he called he also JUSTIFIED; and those whom he
justified he also GLORIFIED.
1 Corinthians 1:7-9: ...so that you are not lacking in any spiritual
gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ; who
will SUSTAIN YOU TO THE END, GUILTLESS in the day of our Lord Jesus
Christ. GOD IS FAITHFUL, by whom you were called into the fellowship
of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Samson concludes:
There you have it. A discussion on the five points which are a part of a system of theology known as Calvinism
James replies:
And Samson, you said that John Calvin did not teach Baptism of the infants of believers, and you said all a person has to do is read Calvin's institutes to find this out?
I don't know why you said that, but Calvin PLAINLY taught that we should baptize the infants of believers.
