Although, I am ordained as an Evangelist/Missionary, my views are very different than many women in ministry in that, I do not think God intended or has called women to be as PASTORS over a church. I'm not speaking about His call on women in ministry or the spreading of the gospel, because there are many examples of women in ministry in the Old and New Testament.
My view and reasoning, is based on what is in Ephesians chapter5, and God's setup of the original family in the beginning with Adam and Eve over the garden (home) which is like unto the church. He put man in charge of the garden, just as he put man in charge of the home.
On the other hand, I feel, if there is not a man to be in this position, and a woman minister is available, she is able to stand in until a man is there to take over. I base this on Genesis chapter 29, wherein Raechel is recorded as being the first woman shepherdess tending sheep, up UNTIL Jacon came , then she turned it over to him. Same principle...
God has an order of roles and postions for the man and the woman, and the unity of marriage is compared and symbolic to the church. And just as He never intended nor purposed in the beginning nor called or placed women to be heads of households, He never called or place a woman head of His church.
When the man is out of place, it is reason for the woman to take the lead and be head of her household, BUT, this was not in God's original painting of the family. When a man and woman are married they are one therefore, if the man is the pastor of a church, would it not go to reason that his wife is co-pastor along side of him? Therefore, she would be UNDER his covering yet, she still does not have authority OVER her husband OR the church. She is only CO-pastor with him.Just as she would be co-head of the household along side of her husband in the home.
What your thoughts about women who have the title of PASTOR over the church?
Do you think the SBC is wrong for their actions in this case?
Baptists to Cut Ties with Ga. Church Over Female Pastor
By Audrey Barrick|Christian Post Reporter
A more than 95-year-old church in Atlanta may be ousted from the Southern Baptist Convention over a woman pastor.
The Rev. Mimi Walker has been serving as co-pastor at Druid Hills Baptist Church with her husband, the Rev. Graham Walker, since 2003. But earlier this month, leaders of the Georgia Baptist Convention recommended cutting ties with the local congregation.
"It seems sad that they decided to go backwards in time," Mimi Walker told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I'm not sure what the value is of trying to go back in time when women were held in subservience."
According to the Southern Baptist Convention's 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, the office of pastor is "limited to men as qualified by Scripture."
In keeping with the confession statement, the state convention voted on March 16 to declare Druid Hills "not a cooperating church."
It added, "The GBC has never been opposed to women serving in ministry positions other than pastor," according to Associated Baptist Press.
This is the second time the Georgia Baptist Convention has moved toward severing ties with a local church over a female pastor. Last year, the convention voted to end its relationship with First Baptist Church in Decatur over the congregation's decision to bring a woman to the pulpit. Julie Pennington-Russell became senior pastor of First Baptist in 2007.
"I�ve seen women in the ministry and worked with women in Presbyterian and Methodist churches," Walker told AJC. "They are moving forward in the process of keeping women involved in the ministry and moving toward equality.
"Our disagreement is related to how you interpret Scripture."
Amid ongoing conflicts over female pastors, some Southern Baptist leaders have made clarifications to what they believe.
Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said the Baptist Faith and Message does not state that "women are to be subservient to men." They are of equal worth before God, he stated earlier.
And though women are gifted for service in the church, Land says the New Testament teaches that "a woman is not to usurp authority over the man" and thus women are not to serve as pastors.
The Georgia Baptist Convention, which has roughly 3,600 churches and is one of 41 state conventions throughout the country, will vote in November on the recommendation to sever ties.
In your first reply to Ella you state reasons why a woman cannot be a pastor.
1. FOR ADAM WAS FIRST, THEN EVE
This is not correct.
Genesis 1:26+27
The human was created according to God�s image, male and female (in one).
The human was given authority over the earth.
Genesis 2:18-24
The female is split from the human.
God says it is not good for the human to be alone, I shall make him a help.
After this splitting, the human becomes a MAN and the other, his help, is called a woMAN.
Nothing is being said about authority or lack thereof.
Also the jewish teaching is very clear. Eve was not taken out of the head so no one thinks she is superior. She was not taken out of the feet so no one thinks she is inferior. In fact, she was taken out of a rib, in the middle... as they are equal to be as one.
2. WOMEN ARE MORE EASILY DECEIVED BY SATAN THAN ADAM. ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED.
Here's what you posted: "1Corinthians 14:34 the women must keep silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak out, but must place themselves in submission, as the law also says.
35 If they want to learn anything, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is inappropriate for a woman to speak out in church.
36 Did God's word originate with you? Are you the only people it has reached?
***37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
38 But if anyone ignores this, HE SHOULD BE IGNORED. (ISV) ***
Everything Paul has written are direct COMMANDMENTS of the Lord Himself. There were just a couple of exceptions and in those exceptions where Paul gave his "opinion" he made it clear that is what he was doing. HOWEVER in none of those cases was it dealing with women keeping silent like in the passage above or with Leadership positions so designated to be filled by men ONLY. "
So, why are you still arguing with Ella? It appears you are contradicting yourself, but I'm sure you have a reason. I'm just curious as to what it is. I am also curious as to what your thoughts are on the question Ella had for you about the pastors/elders/deacons with more than one wife. It seems to me that if you go by the exact word as literal as you are in this threads context, you must be as exact with the rest of the requirements laid out for those positions.
I don't feel we should judge anyone's salvation. When we say things like calling people liars and saying God is not in them, that's exactly what we're doing. If Ella is in sin, that is between her and God. She is not ignorant of the Lord or the Bible so you do not have to try to teach her or change her mind, and frankly, the words you choose to use towards her are...well, you know, we've had this discussion a few times already. I will not have to stand in judgemet of you or you me so I will not try to forcefeed you my opinions.
Here's what you posted: "1Corinthians 14:34 the women must keep silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak out, but must place themselves in submission, as the law also says.
35 If they want to learn anything, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is inappropriate for a woman to speak out in church.
36 Did God's word originate with you? Are you the only people it has reached?
***37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
38 But if anyone ignores this, HE SHOULD BE IGNORED. (ISV) ***
Everything Paul has written are direct COMMANDMENTS of the Lord Himself. There were just a couple of exceptions and in those exceptions where Paul gave his "opinion" he made it clear that is what he was doing. HOWEVER in none of those cases was it dealing with women keeping silent like in the passage above or with Leadership positions so designated to be filled by men ONLY. "
So, why are you still arguing with Ella? It appears you are contradicting yourself, but I'm sure you have a reason. I'm just curious as to what it is. I am also curious as to what your thoughts are on the question Ella had for you about the pastors/elders/deacons with more than one wife. It seems to me that if you go by the exact word as literal as you are in this threads context, you must be as exact with the rest of the requirements laid out for those positions.
I don't feel we should judge anyone's salvation. When we say things like calling people liars and saying God is not in them, that's exactly what we're doing. If Ella is in sin, that is between her and God. She is not ignorant of the Lord or the Bible so you do not have to try to teach her or change her mind, and frankly, the words you choose to use towards her are...well, you know, we've had this discussion a few times already. I will not have to stand in judgemet of you or you me so I will not try to forcefeed you my opinions.
Ok, so having read all of the postings....I have a question.
Women are to be silent in church. That is the statement. Everyone is focusing on the pastor. But, if the phrase women are to be silent in church is the crux of the matter, pastor is a tiny and relatively minor piece of the picture.
In most churches I have attended, the women care for the children. The women lead the Sunday school classes. The women are the secretaries. The women clean the church.
If the purist view is followed here, men need to be stepping up and doing the child care, the Sunday school, VBS, cleaning, maintenance, secretarial, you name it. They cannot simply claim I am the head, you do the rest. Furthermore, women, if they are to remain silent need to withdraw from the choir.
The teacher part of me is totally puzzled by this. For optimal learning to occur, the student must be engaged in the learning process. Passively sitting encourages many things among my students, learning is not usually one of them. To ask someone to sit quietly for an hour or two and stay focused on what is going on is a bit optimistic. Also, to expect a person to not ask a question for an hour or two until she arrives home and can seek clarification....please. By that time, untold emergencies lie missing Binkies, wet diapers, fights between children, phone calls, or a plethora of other distractions will facilitate forgetting what the question actually was and then keep the question at a high level of importance so it is actually asked.
So, is the goal of church learning or compliance? That should indicate something.
1. Jesus never ordained christians to built a new church.
In fact, in Matt16:13-20, Shimon (Peter) confesses something that, at that point in time, was not said before, i.e., Jesus is the Messiah, Son of the living God.
Jesus simply replies that on that statement the new congregation will be rocksolid built. No power on earth can disrupt it and it will be the gate to the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus refers to a Messianic congregation, the jews have always been on the look out of their Messiah.
2. YWH Himself stipulates in the bible the laws and rules for worshipping Him. It is the jewish religion.
God never makes a mistake, as you state, and to which I agree. How can there be another church? Men may have the authority to teach, but to teach what? A new church?
The Messiah is not a christian invention nor do they have a patent on it.
Moreover, we christians are to walk by the faith, not by our church. We are saved by faith in Jesus the Messiah, not by founding a new church in Jesus.
Faith. Nothing more and nothing less. Can we be a Messianic congregation confessing that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, our Lord, His only begotten Son, whose precious blood was shed in order to save the world from the heavy and impayabale debts of sin.... or must we invent an entirely new religion?
3. I very much doubt if Paul wanted to found a church. He is only giving his opinion as to christian behaviour in order to set out purity, love and peace.
Did Paul teach the Roman Catholic Dogmas with a Divine Holy Virgin, to kneel and worship statues and saints? Or were that men with authority to teach God�s Word?
Walter, I am not saying that men cannot teach or women must be able to teach. I am merely saying that men, who give themself so extremely much authority to teach, have made major mistakes, when it comes to churches...
Friends I will still stick by you ladies.I agree if women are to be silent why are the men not cleaning the church, singing intead of the women.have you ever heard me sing it is bad, as in really bad to the bone.:ROFL:
Jesus never said that women can not be pastors, apostles or church leaders.
We are not to stir up a hornets nest with fellow believers. It has come to my attention when someone says that others are liars that will cause problems. what ever happened to the advice from the administration that says to have fun? :peace: Jesus always treated women with respect and honor.Should you do like wise Walter?Saying wome who are pastors are liars is not very godly.We should speak in love.
Not malice.You choose the wrong words and got burnt.had you said this is my opinion or view that women should not be leaders instead of calling them liars then we would not have a bunch of angry women here.
Open mouth insert foot.Admit it you choose the wrong words.This is something I would have done in my early 20's not in my 40's.Yes, a bunch of women chewed on my butt when I was a young man for saying a false hood about w in the church. Women-:boxing: :MrT:
