In dealing with the issue of a Christian being able to "Forfeit" their salvation is made abundantly clear throughout the New Testament. So let's also deal with a particular passage which I believe demonstrates this concept as well.
The Seven letters of Revelation were written to Seven literal Christian Churches, not "church ages". Jesus had good things to say about these churches and bad things to say as well. Each one irregardless of their praise or rebuke were given a warning. Each one was told of the need to "Overcome" if they expected to inherit various things including eternal life. These letters were written to Christians, real Christians, Born Again Believers.
Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
What happens if one does not "Overcome"? They don't get to eat from the "Tree of Life".
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They will be hurt by the Second Death.
Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it .
What happens to those who do not overcome? They don't get to eat of the "Hidden Manna".
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not receive power over the Nations.
****Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.****
What happens to those who do not overcome? Their names are blotted out from the Book of Life! They Forfeited their salvation!
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not become a new pillar, they do not get God's name written on them nor Jesus' new name?
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not get to sit down with Jesus on His Throne!
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. NKJV
Here we see Jesus making a very clear statement that it is entirely possible to remove someone from the Book of Life. To be in the Book of Life one must first be a true believer and that is obvious or else they would not be in the Book of Life to begin with. So if Jesus is warning CHRISTIANS of this very real possibility then the idea of a Christian "Forfeiting" their salvation, committing Apostasy is no doubt very real.
The False Teachings of "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Calvinism" flies in the face of these Scriptures, among others.
I am sorry but the reason you are not seeing this is that you do not understand the Greek grammatical rules. I am not having to read commentaries as I have a very well known book called " Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar" by William D. Mounce. Second edition.
This book is often used by students at Dallas Theological Seminary and it is highly reccommended. I have been studying Greek and have a long way to go.It is probably the most technical and precise language on the planet and takes much study just to learn the basics but it is great to learn and a priceless tool for better understanding God's Word.
Additionally my Pastor teaches Greek and is well schooled in it.He helped me with my last post.
My Brother you are not going to learn Greek by reading commentaries and you will not find a Greek scholar who would disagree with what I laid out to you. That is why you have not been able to find a commentary to help you defend your position. The mere fact that you are arguing against the established rules of Greek Grammar demonstrates you do not understand Greek.
You know my Brother I don't care who is right or wrong but what I care about is truth no matter what conclusion it brings me to. I have had to change my position on certain beliefs before because I allowed the exegesis of the Greek dictate what the truth is.
Bottom line is that John 10:28-29 does not give any support for OSAS as the Greek Grammar absolutely, irrefutably and conclusively demonstrates your personal interpretation to be incorrect.
Hey bro. I wasn't looking at commentaries to try to prove my point, I found about five of those when I first started looking. What I was looking for was something that explained your position. 5 Or 6 greek lexicons later and I still haven't found any.
You try to get me to use the wrong word for my study, a word that would have easily proven your point. However I showed that the real word meant nothing of the kind. The word used here could be used interchangeably as a 1st 2nd or 3rd person pronoun
After this, you tell me it is the verb in relation to the pronoun that is the problem. I do a simple word check and this also proves to be untrue. Not only does the tense of the subject have no effect on the sentence structure, But it is derived from a word that means to do something to ones self.
This proves beyond a doubt that the word used by Jesus means exactly what He said it did. Exactly what Stronges and ThaUI
I may not be a Greek scholar, but grammar laws do not change. I offered written proof from two sources saying that the rules you were trying to apply, did not apply. Strongs and Thayer are two of the most respected names in bible study. I think I will stick with their opinion
1 � Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Greek lexicons are not going to give you the "inflected meaning" which determines HOW the word functions within the sentence and thereby determines the meaning of the word. Lexicons only give you definitions of the word.
Do yourself a favor. Get the book I referred you to and study Greek. Then you will come back later down the road and see what I have been saying. Anyone who studies and knows Greek would not agree with you.
Jesus's words are very clear as well and the Greek supports fully what I have been saying. John 10:28-29 does not support OSAS. It does not allow you place yourself as the person to pluck or snatch yourself.
Let me show you how I am not using the wrong word.
John 10:28 And IG2504 giveG1325 unto themG846 eternalG166 life;G2222 andG2532 they shall neverG3364 G1519 G165 perish,G622 neitherG2532 G3756 shall ANY G5100 man pluckG726 themG846 out ofG1537 myG3450 hand.G5495
G5100 tis pronounced "tis"
An enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object: - a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain (thing), divers, he (every) man, one (X thing), ought, + partly, some (man, -body, -thing, -what), (+ that no-) thing, what (-soever), X wherewith, whom [-soever], whose ([-soever]).
Now the word any does not in and of itself tell us what we need to know. But the Greek says it is Nominative Singular Masculine.
Next we have the verb "PLUCK" or in the NKJV "SNATCH" in Greek.. "Harpazo".... same word. This verb is in the ACTIVE VOICE. This verb prohibits the pronoun "ANY" or "TIS" in Greek to include yourself as the one doing the plucking. The personal pronoun "THEM" or "AUTOS" in Greek has an antecedent which means it refers to the "SHEEP" that follow Jesus. If you are the person doing the snatching then you are not one of Jesus' sheep. So if you want to make an argument that you can be the one doing the snatching or the one not being able to snatch one of Jesus' sheep then you are saying you are not one of Jesus' sheep. I don't think you want to make that argument. Besides, the Greek verb Snatch being in the active voice will not allow you to do it.
I was just kidding about the word "any" not being of the sheep of Jesus. "Any" can mean anyone at all.HOWEVER it's meaning is dependent upon the VOICE of the VERB "PLUCK". Again since it is in the "middle voice" it prohibits yourself from being able to be the one who is not able to pluck yourself.
I was just kidding about the word "any" not being of the sheep of Jesus. "Any" can mean anyone at all.HOWEVER it's meaning is dependent upon the VOICE of the VERB "PLUCK". Again since it is in the "middle voice" it prohibits yourself from being able to be the one who is not able to pluck yourself.
I was just kidding about the word "any" not being of the sheep of Jesus. "Any" can mean anyone at all.HOWEVER it's meaning is dependent upon the VOICE of the VERB "PLUCK". Again since it is in the "middle voice" it prohibits yourself from being able to be the one who is not able to pluck yourself.
