dear folks,, since GOD doesnt make you sin,then it has to be your choice and you choose to sin.. then when it comes to salvation , you also have to choose, whether you choose life or death..
deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
james 1:13-14 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Calvinists do not deny free will. We affirm that people are free to choose what they want to choose. We state that the unbelievers nature is so corrupt that he does not have the ability in his own will, to choose to follow God. This is why the Scriptures say...
�There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good. There is not even one,� (Romans 3:10-12).
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised," (1 Cor. 2:14).
If the Bible says the unbeliever is not "free" then he is not free. The Bible says the unbeliever is deceitful and sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mk 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). How then is the unbeliever able to choose God? He cannot.
This makes God responsible for evil
God is not responsible for the evil that is accomplished by the free will actionsof fallen people. Remember, free will is the ability to make choices and unbelievers make choices consistent with their fallen natures. They openly choose to accomplish evil deeds in contradiction to God's Word. They are openly and freely rebelling against God. God did not make them sinful. He did not make them rebellious. therefore, God is not responsible for the evil but they accomplish.
God made Adam who was good. Adam was not bound by its sinful nature and freely chose to rebel against God. Because of his rebellion, he fell. His body was physically affected by sin. Likewise, his children inherited the sinful nature and depravity of mind, soul, art, body, motions, etc. and are under the proclaimed revelation of God concerning their fallen state. Nevertheless, God made Adam good and Adam chose to rebel. We inherited the sinful nature and the unbeliever, the unregenerate can only act in accordance with his own fall in nature. In other words, he cannot choose to freely follow God because that is a good thing to do. Since he is a slave of sin, does not seek for God and does not understand spiritual things, he is not able to freely choose God.
I am not hearing anyone say here that it is about us or about "me,me,me" type of thing, for I think we all realize that it isn't about us, for we are truly insignificant, and the fact God DOES love us and DOES care, makes it even more astounding really, but ultimately we matter no more than a grain of sand on the beach, still He has the hairs on our head numbered.
I get exactly what you say in your last post here and I agree with that completely. I think He does give at least most of us the opportunity, however, and if the seed He plants within us does not grow, He nurtures where the ground is fertile and walks away from where it is barren.
I am so glad to here you DO believe in Free Will. I was really getting concerned about you Brother and your last post has totally eased my mind. We really are more on the same page than not. In support of you viewpoint I will say that working as I do in corrections, I have met a small handful of people so evil that when you meet them they tend to just exude a "soulless" presence that somehow seems dead in their eyes; a coldness I cannot explain, so honestly I do believe that satan also casts his seed far and wide as well. I know there are people that do not feel that way, believing all are redeemable. I try not to decide, that is God's job, not mine, but I will say, they scare me to be around them. I don't show that fear, but it is truly an adversarial feeling that is not comfortable and not at all pleasant. All of them have been murderers, very cold blooded murder, too I might add, but I cannot say every murderer I have ever met has been this way, for they have not. But of the very few this way, one has committed suicide, and I believe that as to cheat his victims out of the execution he'd been sentenced to. Frankly I do not think his victims felt cheated however, I think they found a sense of closure. I also think he did it to release himself from the world, believing he would be starting a new and better existence.
I like what my Pastor said today, it is our job to Bring Christ to the World, to be His Light, but it is not our job to force people to take Him. How often I think we want everyone to understand what we understand so much that we get so impassioned in our Faith that we overwhelm them. I saw myself in that, and think perhaps I need to contemplate and pray on that a little more.
But I wanted to Thank You for your previous post just above this one for I felt so much better after I read it, for we are so much closer than my concerns. I think many things are predestined because God knows our heart so well. In so many ways, I think we are all posting on the right path with this thread.
Thankyou for the kind words,this is not a new debate to say the least,it is going on in thousands of chat rooms across the world as we speak,as it has since the church began,I beleive the evidence is clear that god has predestined some "vessels of glory"and some for"vessels of wrath"to demonstrate his love and glory to his people.He has to spiritually awaken his sheep otherwise,left to our "own will"we would not choose god.It is not logical for beings with the power to reason,to say god is all-knowing,all-powerful,timeless,infinite,and in the same breath,say he did not create beings whom he knew would suffer eternal judgement.He "knows all"before it happens,he was not surprised by satans rebellion,he was not surprised by Adams rebellion,or ours.
We can disagree on this and still be christian brothers and sisters but It is my beleif that as the years go by the more you study you will come to the understanding that god has a chosen people(before the foundation of the world)
Lastly,you say you work in corrections,well I lived in corrections for many years,thats right,Ive spent time in several different prisons,I was one of those evil souless people your talking about.Thats one reason I feel so strongly about my lord.His miraculous transformation of me personally was none of my doing,I was a bar fighting,womanizing,mean nasty,selfish,SOB.the lord saw fit to change my heart.....not because I "made a decision"for Christ,but because he made one for me,a long time ago.
am I a robot....Heck no....Do I learn and grow,....Of course
would I have come to him on my own....no way
but then again neither did Paul,or anyone
why doesnt he save everyone?not my place to ask
We will know someday
I will tell you,beleiving the way I do,my walk with Christ is more exciting and stronger than you can imagine
And the more I read the bible the more I am convinced of the truths of the doctrines of grace......an anyone who is truly studying the whole bible and being intelectually honest
would have to agree
but we can agree to disagree for now,there are other topics to discuss
writers use this quite often in literature to make a point
I didnt write the song,but I think it sends a message
In the original song are the words
I once was lost but now am found,was blind but now I see
sounds a little like sovereign grace HUH
You cant find yourself,or heal your own blindness
contrary to modern american churches that teach arminianism almost exclusively,this was not what was beleived always.Arminianism crept into the church slowly over the years,...you see....us americans ...we love our free will
now every one excepts it as the only truth
Im kind of tired of the debate,but I wish christians could see both sides of this issue,those verses are in there and they are not going away anytime soon
you cant pretend they dont exist,or explain them away with
absurd proofs....god does not always fit into our nice little box
Sorry cattle,i just dont see How that song is so bad,however
Steven, there are probably more soulless people out there than I could ever be aware of, but I truly doubt that you would be among them.
I can only think of three in all the time I worked corrections, and possibly a fourth. All four were cold blooded senseless murderers that murdered for sport. It was not their crimes that made them soulless but rather a very deep dark cold, like there was nothing behind their eyes. I do not really know how to explain it further than that. Two of them murdered a young mother while her child slept in the next room. They were hired to go into the apartment and do this, but no compensation ever exchanged hands, only a promise of money and meth that never came to pass, but investigator said that they didn't believe they did it for the compensation, but for the experience, and after I got to know them, I agreed. There were five of them convicted in the crime, but only those two would I describe that way. They killed her with steak knives and her chilling 911 call was recorded of her calling 911 and saying "They've Kill Me! They've Killed Me, Please HURRY!!" and they heard her hit the floor. Help arrived in less than five minutes, but she was dead, and her child was, a baby about a year old, was crying in the next room, while her mother died in a pool of blood. Her name was Mary Kay Ross.
The other kidnapped raped and murdered at least two young Christian mothers, one in front of her children. After he abducted the second one, her husband called but the children were too afraid to come out of hiding until they heard their father's voice on the answering machine. When little Shaina Streyle got to the phone, her father had already disconnected but the answering machine had not. He five year old voice was crying as she pleaded "Daddy, Daddy please come back, some bad man took Mommie!" That was the last time anyone saw Piper Steyle alive. No trace of her was ever found, but they did find bone fragments from his previous victim, another Christian Mother that was two months pregnant. They believe he dismembered them. When they convicted him and sentenced him to die, the rushed him back to the prison for they had concerns that one of the husbands would try to kill him. He got back in time for lunch and had no trouble eating his lunch, all of it, and his biggest concern was to get people to talk to him so he could make his life normal again. They later found his trophies of both women hidden in the rafters of his mother's house. He committed suicide. Knowing him as well as I did, I believe it was to cheat the victims families, and he believed he could start over by killing himself. The other was the ring lead that stripped a man of his clothes and dipped him in the river during the winter when things were just barely iced over. They then pelted him with rocks and urinated and defecated on him. It is the only time I ever saw a judge sentence someone to die for the heinousness of the crime without the vote of jury.
Two of the four were capital murder cases the other two were not, but like I said, it was not the heinousness of the crime that made them soulless so much as a coldness that you just don't find in people. It is like a very creepy observance, that I really cannot describe.
Most convicts are truly redeemable people, they are people that have made mistakes, but there is good within them too, they have made bad choices for various reasons, many born into circumstance that gave them very little chance to live normal lives. Even the self professed wiccans and satan worshipers were not like these four people. These people might laugh, but there was no joy, they would not even seek pleasure, they simply seethed and exuded a sense of depravity that is hard to describe. I know child molesters and child murders that are not nice people at all, but I would not call them soulless.
Nor would I ever describe you that way. I do not believe for a moment that your seed was spawned of the demonic. Those four, I think well may have been. There was nothing "normal" about them, not even in prison population. They didn't speak a lot, they mostly observed and they observed everything all the time. They didn't participate in anything, they would simply watch and miss nothing.
Steven my Brother, you are nothing like this. We are all stained by sin, but I think those spawned of demonic seed are uniquely and inherently more evil than we know.
You may certainly google any of the info I put here, and you will find the stories are true. All from SD, Sioux Falls, Canistota, and Spearfish areas. I care very much about these people I work with, and I want to help them get on a better path where they can live, and I am blessed now to be in a place where I can do this. We should all help each other, but often people do not want to help those that need it most.
I know God has placed me here in this place for a reason, for I have been there when my work release people have been exploited and victimized. Their punishment is to do time, not to be punished further by people that would exploit them and victimize them further for already their rights are very controlled by a the system they are incarcerated under. Rules must be enforced fairly, but they are people and the best thing you can do is help them find their way, and not send them out angry and hurt and unprepared for the world.
Many people do not belong in this business, and unfortunately it seems to attract many that do not belong in the business. My heart is in this business, for deep is the sorrow and despair and people need hope.
No my Friend, you are not soulless, and you will never convince me otherwise.
Ok, now I'm confused again. You say Calvinists don't believe God forces unsaved people to sin...but what about Pharaoh? Didn't you say "God forced Pharaoh to disobey Him" awhile ago? Isn't that God interjecting His will on a unsaved person to cause them to sin? Doesn't that make God responsible for it? Are you trying to mess with my head now?:laugh: You say we would not choose God, so God interjects His will on us to make us choose Him so that He is totally responsible for our salvation...but the same thing doesn't apply when He interjects His will on unsaved people? If He chooses for us, saved or unsaved, that makes God totally responsible for everything....if you're right...right?
