It has been my experience that the answer is no. We all know and understand that HaShem is order, and that all things that truly show His Light and Love are as well. I ask that if you can't follow the simple request placed before you, please don't post on this thread.
Any debate on the Laws of HaShem, goes off the deep end, with passage after passage being posted. In just one post we may find as many as 15 if not more. This is an unproductive way to handle this, or any topic. As it can leave any one wishing to reply, with little option, Leave a post that is pages long, or leave a vague post filled with even more passages and little substance. This is what leads to endless debate with no answers, as well talking in circles.
For this reason, it is always best to look at ONLY ONE PASSAGE at a time. Now once that passage is called up, Both sides must look at it from both sides. i.e. Be ready and willing to argue the points you don't follow.
If the only thing we do is push one side of a topic, we fail to really look at the other side, and in most cases, fail to even hear the other side. So here is my propose, it is open to every one that truly wishes to open their hearts and minds to TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth, and not your churches truth. Rather BIBLICAL TRUTH.
As almost all study of OT vs NT is centered around the Law of HaShem, (Know here after as TORAH) the first thing that must be found is, "How valid is Torah today?" Not an easy answer for many.
So here we go.
When it comes to Torah, the one passage that comes up more than other is Mat. 5:17. So lets look closely at this passage.
(NLT) Mat 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
(KJ same passage) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
One must always take note of the passage opening. Here we are told not to think that something is Yeshua's reason for coming. From that we are safe to say that anything that follows, (until a change of topic) is what we shouldn't see as coming topass. After all He just THINK NOT, or in my words, (Don't put words in my mouth, or forget the important words I use.)
So let's do a full brake down of this passage. Looking at from both sides.
First we have THINK NOT, or Don't misunderstand. Both give the same thought behind the words. Just tell us not to entertain the idea that Yeshua came to do any of the following. So what is it he didn't come to do?
(KJ ) I am come to destroy the laws or the prophets:
(NLT) I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets.
If we read this passage for what it tells us, rather than what we wish it to say, we find that the Torah, and the Prophets are placed together. From this one should conclude that they work together, and we can not remove one from this passage with any hope of keeping the whole context of the passage.
Also, if we remove any part of this, then apply the new contextual meaning to the full passage, as well as any that may follow, do we not teach a lie, based on what we hope is true? SO any teaching on this passage must hold true to both Torah and prophets. With this understanding, one must walk carefully. If we say Yeshua removed the Law, nailed it to the cross, and so on, We also say that He has removed the prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Like His second coming, Judgment of all man kind, and many others.
(KJ) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(NLT) No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Now the most common word to be pushed by them that stand in opposition to Torah is the word FULFILL. So lets take a look at that word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill Has this to say.
a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house— Willa Cather
2a : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations— Leslie Rees
3 archaic : to make full : fill her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson
Now in this we find both sides, we find that it can mean to being to an end, yet we must ask, has it all been brought to an end? Are we wrong to say Yeshua will be coming back? After all He has brought to an end the Prophets, then that would also mean all prophecy has been fulfilled, or removed as they no longer hold meaning. i.e. there is no need for them.
Yet if we now look at this from a more contextual view, we know He must return for the WORD to hold truth. After all if any part of what the WORD tells us is not true, then we place our salvation in the hands of sin. Just saying.
We also know from the fact that Yeshua must come again, we must understand that He is still working to FULFILL scripture.
On the flip side.
At best I can here, so I leave something our please let me know.
This passage is clear that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, nailed it the cross, and removed it. He know that man kind can not live up to it's standards, and that to be held to that standard would leave us all devoid of hope. The passage is clear in that it tells us Jesus removed law. As is clear in your own use of Webster.
Only Prophecies that haven't taken place are ; that Jesus comes to receive his Church, Body of Believers. Then comes the Yrs of Tribulation, then battle of Armageddon, later Jesus will return to earth with His Army to defeat the devil ! Jesus will Control the earth wherein dewells Righousness.
Old things have passed away, New heaven and earth!
So we now have a Biblical meaning for what sin is, and we can see that Biblically if we remove the law sin is not counted against us, so we have no need for forgiveness.
End quote
For clarification are you stating you are speaking of the Royal law? (i.e. Ten commandments?)
As to the law concerning the gentiles Acts 15 :24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 >>>That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.<<<<
I use the term Torah to be clear of what Laws I speak of. The Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible, (no mater if you use a Hebrew or western Bible). In it we find the Laws of HaShem. True it more often called the Laws of Moses, yet Moses didn't give the laws we find there in. He did teach them, and it was placed on Moses to be sure the Laws were known and understood. Yet they are not his Laws.
In Mat. 5:17 Torah is what Yeshua was speaking to. Now when we move forward, we will be looking at them one at a time. It is impotent that we see what laws are are for what peoples. They are devided for us, yet sadly, (as you may already know and may have seen), many people that wish the laws removed, will say they are for the Jews only.
That however isn't true. Some are ONLY for the priest that work in the Temple, others for the High priest, some for only women, and some for only men. So the Laws of HaShem are for all of His children, yet not all of His children fall under under every law.
I guess I should fully answer your question to the best of my ability before we proceed.
The two MAIN opposing views are from my experience :
That Christ paid for ALL. That ALL of Torah was nailed to the cross and that they just have to believe in Yeshua and that is ALL that is needed. This mindset rests in Christ spiritually and is under the impression that Christ kept all of Torah including the Sabbath perfectly and so if they rest in Him, in a sense they are keeping it perfectly also. This camp believes that Messiah is coming in the near future for his Bride.
VS
The other camp states that a portion of Torah was nailed to the cross . The ordinances that were against the jews including the sacrificial system.
Feasts and festivals (depending on the level of study) which points to the coming Messiah may or may not be observed, while the Sabbath and dietary restrictions usually are. Some believe in the Sabbath as determined by the lunar/solar calculation and some believe in keeping Saturday or weekly Sabbath.
First let me get my crying over with. I do wish that this sight had a reply with quote option. It makes things so much easier. Done crying now.
KJVONLY
Now we have an understanding of at lest everyone stands as to the meaning of the words we looked at in Mat. 5:17, and have looked at 18 as well. Well ok in truth we glanced at 18.
Your assessment of how both sides look at this, and work to explain their side, is accurate. However you over look one thing. So lets look real fast then we move on.
You said,
""""""The other camp states that a portion of Torah was nailed to the cross . The ordinances that were against the jews including the sacrificial system.
Feasts and festivals (depending on the level of study) which points to the coming Messiah may or may not be observed, while the Sabbath and dietary restrictions usually are. Some believe in the Sabbath as determined by the lunar/solar calculation and some believe in keeping Saturday or weekly Sabbath.""""
First this leads into the part of the study, As we know, if we are going to remove any part of Torah, it must be in line with the whole of the Word. If not then we do so of our free will, and may lead our self into places we really don't wish to go. Like one really hot place.
Many people have no clue as to the feast, the calendar, or who they belong to. Paul keep the feast, even keep the Biblical Sabbath. The one thing that leaves many thinking I have lost my mind is that Paul worked to walk the Torah out in his life, and actions.
It seems to me that from the part of your post I quoted, the next place to go would be Sabbath. As well the Sabbath"s. This is not going to be locked down to only one passage, that would be both misleading, and in some cases dishonest. ------ HOWEVER ------- We will only look at 2 or 3 tops at a time. Give address that fit with the topic, and I can't make this clear enough, once an adddress is given, we don't move from it until everyone has their say, and we all agree on the most important points.
As we move through the rest of this, we may find ourselves in some sticky mud at times. So we may need to help pull one another up and out at times.
That said, hand on this is going to be like driving up Taylors Peak.
Well I have to run so I will pick up with the Sabbath when I get back, sorry.
Matthew 5:17,18: Jesus says, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to **FULFILL THEM**! I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law **UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED**!"
Acts 3:18-20: This is how **GOD FULFILLED** what He had foretold through the prophets, saying that the Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus!! He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as He promised long ago through His holy prophets!!
Ephesians 3:8-11: Although I am less than the least of all of God's people, this faith was given to me to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches in Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom 0f God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to His **ETERNAL PURPOSE** which He **ACCOMPLISHED**in Christ Jesus our Lord. In Him and **THROUGH FAITH IN HIM** we may approach God with freedom and confidence**
Actually 26 of the 27 New Testament books except for Revelation were written between AD 48 and AD 65 and New Testament churches had copies of these 26 inspired books by AD 70. And this is why the Temple was completely destroyed in AD 70 as prophesied by Jesus in AD 33 as per Luke 21:5-7, 20-24,32. And so all everything was completely **FULFILLED** and **ACCOMPLISHED BY AD 70 except for the prophecies in Revelation concerning the Great Tribulation immediately followed by the 2nd Coming of Jesus, Judgment Day and the New Heavens and New Earth as prophesied in the inspired book of Revelation in AD 96 which was probably delivered to most of the Christian churches by AD 100!!
The following Scripture proves that Jesus completely **FULFILLED** the OT prophesies and **ACCOMPLISHED SALVATION** so that we are no longer in need of the OT Law!!
Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, "**ALL AUTHORITY** in heaven and on earth has been given to **ME**. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to **OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU**. And surely I am with you always!!"
I Corinthians 9:21: I am under **CHRIST'S LAW**!!
Galatians 6:2: Fulfill the **LAW OF CHRIST**!!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the {**OT**} law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE {**OT**} LAW!!"
*WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!
Galatians 2:14-16,20,21; 3:2,5,10-13;23-25: Paul said, When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH AND NOT BY OBSERVING THE LAW, because by observing the law no one will be justified.!"
Galatians 2:20,21: The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3:10-13: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." **CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW** by becoming a curse for us!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!"
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was weak and useless; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: "The time is coming." says the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".... By calling this Covenant "NEW", He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and aging will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is Mediator is SUPERIOR TO THE OLD ONE, and it is founded on better promises.
Colossians 2:16,17: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a *SHADOW* of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ!!!
Matthew 24:35: Heavenand earth will pass away, but My Words will never pass away!"
Sorry about that, life just pops up ever where we go.
This passage covers a lot of ground, and will need to looked at in a broad yet focused manner. In other wards, we will see some shoot gun blast, followed by sniper fire. Sounds scary I know, like I said a little driving up Taylors peak.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
As this passage opens the door to a study on the Feast, the New moon, and the Sabbath's. Our time will be better spent looking at one aspect at a time. As Sabbath is so hotly debated, it seems the logical place.
Many will tell us that this passage tells us it is ok to pick a day, any day will work, so long as you have one you can call your Sabbath.
Then the side of the coin tells us, no it has to be Sunday, Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday, making it the holiest day of the week.
Then we have the next one in line. Yeshua keep Shavot, and He is to be our example.
So rather than look at who said what, I am going to show you who did what.
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. Tomorrow I will post the flip side of who did what.
There are some who claim because Paul preached in Jewish Synagogues on the Sabbath in Acts 13:14, Acts 13:42 and Acts 18:4 that Christians should also keep the Sabbath Laws. However Paul was ordered by Jesus to preach to the Israelite Jews and the best way to teach a lot of Jews was in their synagogues where the Jews gathered on the Sabbath Day. The complete context in Acts 13:13-15; Acts 13:42-46 and Acts 18:2-4 below shows this very clearly!!
Acts 9:15: The Lord said to Ananias, "This man {Paul} is my chosen instrument to proclaim My name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the **PEOPLE OF ISRAEL**!"
Acts 13:13-15: From Paphos, Paul and his companions sailed to Perga in Pamphylia, where where John left them to return to Jerusalem. From Perga they went on to Pisiidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the **SYNAGOGUE** {Not a Church} and sat down. After reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the **SYNAGOGUE** sent word to them saying, "Brothers, if you have a word of exhortationn for the people please speak!"
Acts 13:42-46: As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the **SYNAGOGUE** {Not a Church}, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to **JUDIASM** followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked to them and urged them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. When they saw the crowds, the Jews were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on them. Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you **FIRST**. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles!"
Acts 18:2-4: Because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome, Paul went to see them, and because he was a tentmaker as they were he stayed and worked with them. Every Sabbath he reasoned in the **SYNAGOGUE** {Not a Church}, trying to persuade Jews and Grreeks!
Galatians 4:9,10: How is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you want to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing **SPECIAL DAYS** and months and seasons and years. I fear for you. that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you!!
Colossians 2:16,17: Do dot let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard a special festival, a New Moon celebration or a **SABBATH DAY**! These are a **SHADOW** of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found **IN CHRIST**!!
In the New Testament **EVERY DAY** is the **LORD'S DAY** especially **TODAY**!!
Acts 2:44-46: All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to everyone who had need. **EVERY DAY** they continued to meet together!!
Hebrews 3:12,13: See to it brothers and sisters that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But **ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER **DAILY**, as long as it is called **TODAY** so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness!
Exodus 31:14-16: Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do **ANY WORK** on that day must be **CUT OFF** from their people... Whoever does **ANY WORK** on the Sabbath day is to be put to death!
Exodus 35:2,3; Whoever does **ANY WORK** on the Sabbath must be put to death. Do not **LIGHT A FIRE** in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.
This was possible in Israel since it is about the same latitude of warm South Carolina. But anyone in the frigid parts of the earth must freeze to death in the winter since electricity would not be invented until over 2,000 years after this commandment was given!!
Matthew 12:1-12: Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, the said to Him, "Look your disciples are doing what is **UNLAWFUL ON THE SABBATH**. Jesus answered, "Haven't you heard of what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread--which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests... If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is **LORD OF THE SABBATH**!" Going from that place, Jesus went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to being charges against Jesus, they asked Him, "IS IT LAWFUL TO HEAL ON THE SABBATH?" Jesus said to the, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath?" Jesus said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? Therefore it is lawful to do good {*WORK*} on the Sabbath!"
John 5:16-18: So because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute Him. In his defense Jesus said to them. "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and **I TOO AM **WORKING**!" For this reason they tried all the more to kill Him; not only was **HE BREAKING THE SABBATH**, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 9:16: The Pharisees said of Jesus, "This man is not from God , for He does **NOT KEEP THE SABBATH**!"
The Sabbath is only mentioned two times after Acts 18:4 in Colossians 2;16;17 and Hebrews 4:9 which is obviously referring to our eternal rest in heaven:
Colossians 2:16,17: Do dot let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard a special festival, a New Moon celebration or a **SABBATH DAY**! These are a **SHADOW** of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found **IN CHRIST**!!
Hebrews 4:8.9: If Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about **ANOTHER DAY**! There remains, then a **SABBATH REST** for thhe people of God, for anyone who enters God's Rest also rests from their own works, just as God did from His!!
There is not one Scripture that shows any Christian kept Sabbath Day Laws or is told to keep Sabbath Day Laws after the Resuurrection of our Lord and Teacher and Savior Jesus Christ!
Galatians 4:9,10: How is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you want to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing **SPECIAL DAYS** and months and seasons and years. I fear for you. that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you!!
Colossians 2:16,17: Do dot let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard a special festival, a New Moon celebration or a **SABBATH DAY**! These are a **SHADOW** of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found **IN CHRIST**!!
Sounds scary I know, like I said a little driving up Taylors peak.