Thread: Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
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Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 11:48 AM
Hi Everyone,
This article I wrote will be dealing with the issue of "Eternal Security" also known as "OSAS" Once Saved Always Saved". This theology is an off shoot from Calvinism's 5th point called "Preseverance of the Saints". What some of you do not know is that the belief of OSAS or "Onced Saved Always Saved" did not exist or come into being until the 1500s AD when John Calvin invented it. Prior to that, no record is found anywhere in Church history that anyone ever believed or taught this. The consistent view of Chritianity has always been that a true Christian could forfeit their salvation should they committ the one sin called Apostasy.
Those who believe in OSAS like Southern and Independent Baptists do will claim that if a person who is truly saved will never commit Apostasy or that if they do then they were never really saved to beign with. The problem with that philosophy is that it is not supported by scripture. If a Christian was not able to commit Apostasy, to deny Christ totally, then why did God in His infinite wisdon have numerous scriptures written to warn Christians of the potential of that very thing? It seems absurd for God to warn His saved Christian children if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. Let's look at some scriptures that deal with this.
Let's first deal with a passage where Jesus was giving a private teaching to His 12 Disciples.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
Let's look at what Paul had to say.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In the above passage Paul is making a very clear statement. He is stating that a person's salvation is "conditional" by using the phrase "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". The word "IF" is a conditional word and is in every translation written. 100% of all translators used this word for this phrase as well as the passage below. What both passages are clearly stating is that our Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our CONTINUED FAITH in the Gospel / Christ. It has nothing at all to do with works. It is our FAITH in Christ, but it is still our choice to remain/ continue or not to. FREE WILL.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note that Paul is not telling them of their need to obtain saving faith, but of their need to CONTINUE in their saving faith that they have already obtained and the consequence IF they do not continue which is forfeiture of their salvation. There would be no warnings if the threat and consequence of Apostasy were not real.
Paul consistently encouraged his readers but usually did so after he warned them of the dangers of committing Apostasy. Let me show you a pattern of writings he did regarding salvation, the dangers of "Falling Away" from the Christian Faith Encouragement to continue in the faith and how even he himself potentially could have become an Apostate or "Reprobate"/"Castaway"
Phil 3:9 � and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 � Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. NKJV
Acts 20:24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. NKJV
1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.NKJV
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (KJV)
There is an important analogy Paul is giving here. He is making it very clear in my opinion, that in order to receive an "imperishable crown" which we know is the crown of Life, we have to finish the race. We have to cross the finish line. Remember not everyone who is running in this race will cross the finish line.
Notice that Paul is saying that he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Jesus Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "reprobate" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard.
Paul is again talking about running a race. He must love Track like me. LOL Notice he is encouraging his readers, who are CHRISTIANS I might add, to run the race in such a away as to receive the prize. He is not making any guarantees or any implications that they would finish the race but he encouraged them to do so. This encouragement was also more of a warning to them.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,NKJV
Same theme. Run the race WITH ENDURANCE. Persevere to the end.
Mat 24: 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJV
Jesus laid the foundation above that Paul continued to preach upon.
2 Tim 4: 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Paul knew his time to die was coming very soon and he imparted some final words.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. NKJV
Paul was ready to die and he made it plain that he had finished the race and that he had KEPT THE FAITH. What is the opposite of keeping the Faith? NOT keeping the faith. Falling back unto UNBELIEF. APOSTASY. Forfeiture of one's Salvation.
There is a distinct difference between Arminian Theology and Weslyan.
Weslyan theology, which is what Assembly of God, Methodists and a few others believe, teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation by committing certain sins like adultery and fornication and then if the person repents then they regain their salvation back. That is simply not biblical and makes their salvation somewhat of a works based faith which is not biblical.
Arminian theology teaches that once a Christian has committed Apostasy, then they can never come back. They can never be forgiven again. Once salvation has been forfeited there is no more hope for that person. Coincidentally, this is also what the Earliest Church Fathers of the first two centuries taught. :-)
There are no number of sins or sins per se that will cause a Christian to lose their salvation. There is only one sin and one sin only that causes a Christian to "Forfeit" their salvation and that sin is called "Apostasy"aka "falling away." That is a total and complete rejection of Christ and His teachings. It is falling back to a state of UNbelief.
What is "Apostasy?"
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God.
Paul warned just as Jesus did that in the last days there WILL BE a "Falling Away" from the faith. In 2Thess 2:3 Paul gave this warning of an event that will occur. So what is it?
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
Apostasy is akin to a Divorce. A Christian divorcing from Christ. When this occurs, you are no longer His. You are no longer a Christian. You are no longer saved.
So how does this happen to a Christian?
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
Paul also related this same situation to the Christians in Rome. Paul was explaining to these Gentile Christians about unbelieving Israel and how some of the natural branches (Jews) were broken off so that Gentile Christians could be grafted into the vine. Then Paul gives a similar warning as Christ did.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NKJV
Paul was warning these Gentile Christians not to be haughty but to fear. In other words do not be so secure in thinking that it is not possible for you as a Christian to fall back into "unbelief" and be cut off from God just as some Jews were.
Conclusion.
The scriptures above clearly refute the False teachings of OSAS and "Perseverance of the Faith". Calvinisms 5th point cannot stand.
We as Christians have a responsibility to choose to continue in Christ, "endure until the end" or not to. God does not force salvation on anyone nor does He stop a Christian from committing Apostasy.
1Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 27 Mar, 2009 08:39 AM
LOL. Walter, it doesn't look like he is going to let you get by with that. I had wondered if he would fall for it.
Jeffro, good job brother. Make him deal with the verses, not break them into subjects, thus leaving out hundreds that don't fit neatly into one of the 5 sections.
Walter, I wasn 't going to say anything until I saw if he would go for it or not. I was just curious if he would let you do that.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 27 Mar, 2009 02:53 PM
Jeff,
I will critique the commentary article you gave and get it done by tomorrow. Lots to write so it is going to be long. However I am not going to continue to debate articles written by someone who is unable to debate me personally. I would rather engage in any discussion with a person who can interact on this board.
Leon,
Thanks for the call last night....ah...this morning. lol It meant a lot to me my Friend!
I am not trying to get away with anything with Jeff or you for that matter. Addressing this subject requires us to break each point down...T U L I P ...and do a proper exegesis of each scripture they think supports Calvinism to see if they are properly interpreted...which they are not. If a person has a good handle on Calvinism then they understand that each plank is supported by the previous plank under the foundation which is "T"... "Total Depravity of Man". It is important to realize that if it can be shown that the Calvinist particular position or interpretation of "Total Depravity of Man" is not correct, then the entire system falls apart. I have debated (Calvinist) Professors from Tyndale Theological Seminary on their forums before and they never disagreed with this.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 27 Mar, 2009 06:36 PM
Brother Walter,
I am of the opinion that Calvinism is based solely on the principle of election, and everything stems from that. I am aware of the views of the 5 point Calvinists, but I think they just got too caught up in the debate to see the truth.
My understanding of the Calvin writings that I have studied, and I haven't studied many, is that election was the original idea and everything else just came up slowly over about a 100 year period. Is this a correct assumption? I could easily be wrong, as I haven't really studied it in depth.
I was really trying to leave this debate to the two of you. My Calvinist leanings all come directly from the scriptures and not from something John Calvin wrote. I think the Bible speaks clearly that God is the one who does the choosing. I think the TULIP principles grew out of that.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 27 Mar, 2009 09:10 PM
sorry walter, but i am not going to defend calvinism... i dont believe in it... nor arminian... i believe all those verses better support what i copied and pasted...
just for fun though i guess i will throw some Total depravity verses, and you can explain how they dont support calvinism.
i found this list... yes it is long, but you asked for it? you said there is not one verse?
i remember the warning about keeping it short... this is why, i recommend only to skim through this... dont read the whole thing... this is just the T part...
Is man basically good or basically evil?
Ecclesiastes 7:29 - "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."
Romans 5:7-8 - For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:12,19 - through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners
c.f. Job 15:14-16, 25:4-6; Ecclesiastes 9:3
All men? Are there any exceptions?
Psalm 143:2 - And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, for in Your sight no man living is righteous.
Galatians 3:22 - the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin
Romans 11:32 - For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
2 Chronicles 6:36 - there is no man who does not sin
Isaiah 53:6 - All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
Micah 7:2-4 - The godly person has perished from the land, and there is no upright person among men. All of them lie in wait for bloodshed; each of them hunts the other with a net. Concerning evil, both hands do it well. The prince asks, also the judge, for a bribe, and a great man speaks the desire of his soul; so they weave it together. The best of them is like a briar, the most upright like a thorn hedge.
Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. (c.f. Psalm 14:1-3, 53:1-3)
1 John 1:8,10 - If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar and His word is not in us.
Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."
c.f. 1 Kings 8:46; 116:11, 130:3, 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Jeremiah 2:29; Micah 7:2-4, Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19; Romans 5:12-14; 1 Corinthians 5:9-10; James 3:2; etc., etc.
Are people good deep down?
Mark 7:21-23 - "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
Psalm 5:9 - There is nothing reliable in what they say; their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.
Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?
Heart (Hardened, Deceitful)
Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Ecclesiastes 9:3 - the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
Matthew 15:19 - "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders." (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from youth.
Psalm 36:1-2 - Transgression speaks to the ungodly within his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes. For it flatters him in his own eyes concerning the discovery of his iniquity and the hatred of it.
Matthew 13:14 - "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.'"
Proverbs 28:26 - He who trusts in his own heart is a fool
Romans 1:28-31 - And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being... without understanding
Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled
Ephesians 4:17-18 - So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - For among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is none like You. But they are altogether stupid and foolish. Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge
c.f. Romans 8:7, 12:2; Ephesians 4:23
Will/Choosing (Enslaved)
John 8:34 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
2 Peter 2:19 - by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
Titus 3:3 - For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
Galatians 4:8-9 - However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin... Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart... For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Romans 7:14 - For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
Romans 6:20 - For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 - if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
c.f. Isaiah 42:6-7; Psalm 51:112; John 8:31-32,36; 2 Corinthians 3:17
Affections/Desires (Perverted)
Romans 1:24-27 - Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
2 Timothy 3:2-4 - For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God
Proverbs 21:10 - The soul of the wicked desires evil
Isaiah 32:6 - For a fool speaks nonsense, and his heart inclines toward wickedness
John 3:19 - "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."
John 8:44 - "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father."
Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled
Romans 7:18 - I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh
Isaiah 1:5-6 - The whole head is sick and the whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head there is nothing sound in it, only bruises, welts and raw wounds, not pressed out or bandaged, nor softened with oil.
Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?
Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
Job 11:12 - An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man.
1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness'"
Matthew 7:18 - "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." (c.f. Luke 6:43)
Matthew 12:34 - "how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil."
Romans 8:7 - the mind set on the flesh... does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from youth.
Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
c.f. Job 14:4; Matthew 12:34; John 15:5; Romans 14:23; 1 John 5:18-19
Are men at least born pure? What about the "tabula rasa"?
Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.
Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth
Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; those who speak lies go astray from birth.
Isaiah 48:8 - "You have not heard, you have not known. Even from long ago your ear has not been open, because I knew that you would deal very treacherously; and you have been called a rebel from birth."
John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"
c.f. Proverbs 22:15
What is the natural disposition of man toward God?
John 3:20 - "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
Romans 8:7-8 - the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Colossians 1:21 - you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds
James 4:4 - You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
c.f. Romans 1:28-30
What is man's relationship to God?
Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; those who speak lies go astray from birth.
Ephesians 2:12-13 - remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:3 - Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
c.f. Isaiah 59:2
Can man then do anything to please God?
Proverbs 15:9 - The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
Proverbs 15:8/21:27 - The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
Proverbs 28:9 - He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
Isaiah 64:6 - For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
Romans 8:7-8 - the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please [God]
Psalm 10:4 - The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, "There is no God."
John 3:20 - "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
Isaiah 65:1 - "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me."
Isaiah 64:7 - There is no one who calls on Your name, who arouses himself to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us and have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
Romans 3:10-12 - "there is none who seeks for God"
c.f. Romans 10:20
Can the natural man comprehend the gospel or come to saving knowledge of God on his own?
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18,21-24 - For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness
Deuteronomy 29:2-4 - And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."
Matthew 11:27 - "no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.'
c.f. Psalm 119:18; Proverbs 4:19; Isaiah 42:6-7; Hosea 14:9; Matthew 16:17; John 8:43; Acts 22:14, 26:18; Ephesians 4:17-19; 2 Corinthians 2:15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 1 John 5:20
Can men of themselves accept God's gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?
John 3:27 - John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven."
John 14:16 - "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him
John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 6:44 & 64 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 11:35-36 - Or who has first given to [the Lord] that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
1 Corinthians 1:30 - But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
c.f. Jonah 2:9; Zephaniah 3:9; John 15:16; 1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 1:6; James 1:18
Who supplies faith/belief/repentance?
Romans 12:3 - God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours
1 Corinthians 3:6 - I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
Acts 5:31 - "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18 - When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Philippians 1:29 - For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake... to believe in Him
Acts 18:27 - And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace
Acts 3:16 - "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all."
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Timothy 2:25 - The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, [etc.]... if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth
1 Corinthians 12:3 - no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit
2 Peter 1:3 - His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence
Romans 11:36 - For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
1 Corinthians 4:7 - For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
John 3:6 & 6:63 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit... It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing;"
Romans 5:6 - For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Colossians 2:13 - When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions
Ephesians 2:1-2 & 4-5 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 27 Mar, 2009 09:29 PM
Jeff,
Slow down ....LOL how about letting me address your post to me first and then we can get into specifics. This is overwhelming. We will never get anywhere this way. It's like playing tennis. Do you constantly spike ball after ball or do you allow the opponent to return the first one? LOL This discussion is going to require patience my Friend. OK?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 28 Mar, 2009 09:46 AM
Jeff,
While I am working on responding to the first post I said I would critique, here is what Arminian Theology teaches. Ponder this and please, in your own words explain to me where you disagree with it. Below is actually what Arminian Theology teaches according to Arminians.
Blessings!
Walter
The Five Arminian Articles of Remonstrance
I.That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundations of the world were laid, determined to save, out of the human race which had fallen into sin, in Christ, for Christ's sake and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on the same His Son and shall through the same grace persevere in this same faith and obedience of faith even to the end; and on the other hand to leave under sin and wrath the contumacious and unbelieving and to condemn them as aliens from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36, and other passages of Scripture.
II.That, accordingly, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that He has obtained for all, by His death on the cross, reconciliation and remission of sins; yet so that no one is partaker of this remission except the believers [John 3:16; 1 John 2:2].
III.That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his own free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good � nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through His Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in all his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God [John 15:5].
IV.That this grace of God is the beginning, the progress and the end of all good; so that even the regenerate man can neither think, will nor effect any good, nor withstand any temptation to evil, without grace precedent (or prevenient), awakening, following and co-operating. So that all good deeds and all movements towards good that can be conceived in through must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of operation, grace is not irresistible; for it is written of many that they resisted the Holy Spirit [Acts 7 and elsewhere passim].
V.That those who are grafted into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby been made partakers of His life-giving Spirit, are abundantly endowed with power to strive against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh, and to win the victory; always, be it understood, with the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit, with Jesus Christ assisting them in all temptations, through His Spirit; stretching out His hand to them and (providing only that they are themselves prepared for the fight, that they entreat His aid and do not fail to help themselves) propping and upbuilding them so that by no guile or violence of Satan can they be led astray or plucked from Christ's hands [John 10:28]. But for the question whether they are not able through sloth or negligence to forsake the beginning of their life in Christ, to embrace again this present world, to depart from the holy doctrine once delivered to them, to lose their good conscience and to neglect grace--this must be the subject of more exact inquiry in the Holy Scriptures, before we can teach it with full confidence of our mind.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 28 Mar, 2009 10:28 AM
hey walter.
this is all interesting... i was unaware of tulip and the 5 arminian articles untill you mentioned them... they are written exactly the same way, and only agree on one, which is the total depravity of man...
though i will say one thing. it seems the total depravity of man contradicts the other 4 points of arminian.
it basicly says, that with out Jesus we are incapable of good. that we need God to come to us first?
i will research all this when time allows. be patient with me :)you will get a bigger response. it will be a little while, i am reading them both.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 28 Mar, 2009 10:50 AM
Walter,
I was going to stay out of this, but one thing just jumped off the page at me as I was reading through this. I have to ask you to explain how your first point could be true. Let me explain what I mean.
WALTER: .That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundations of the world were laid, determined to save, out of the human race which had fallen into sin, in Christ, for Christ's sake and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on the same His Son and shall through the same grace persevere in this same faith and obedience of faith even to the end;
LEON: We all know people who start out like gang busters, then wander away and never come back. Did God make a mistake with these people? Did their "free will" cause them to give up the salvation God had called them to receive? Calvinists would say these people were never saved to start with, and were obviously not called. I would be interested in your explanation, and yes I know the Bible tells us this will happen, but my question is, how does this apply to the Armenian belief?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 28 Mar, 2009 10:50 AM
Hi Jeff,
Hey....NO MORE LONG POSTS :ROFL: LOLOLOL
Let's take this slowly a couple of verses at a time. Line upon line , precept upon precept.
Yes the "Calvinists"... interpretation... of what Total Depravity means contradicts Arminian, however their interpretation is very skewed. They went too far.
If you want to do some research and study some great articles, then my close Friend and now my Pastor Tim Warner has written many fine articles. www.pfrs.org
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 28 Mar, 2009 11:02 AM
just so i am not misunderstood, i am not falling for anything. also i just noticed what walter wrote about not debating if i dont debate with you personally.
walter you have a bit of an edge on me. you seem to be very well grounded in what you believe, and you have had these debates with other people. i have only been interested in this subject for maybe almost a month. and your the first person i have debated on this subject (if you can even call it that) cant ya tell? i have no schooling or college education in theology or apologetics... you seem to be years ahead of me on all of this. your a deacon at your church, which means you must have a certain amount of knowledge. me, i just attend.
so yes, i will copy and paste... if i see something said, that i agree with, but that you may disagree with, i will copy it and paste it so you can show me why you disagree with it.
so, i do this cause i am interested in it... i want to learn. i want to learn why you believe what you believe. i have already learned a lot from people on these forums. even if i dont agree with it, i at least understand why they believe it.
none of this is going to change the most important facts about the Bible that we can all agree on. which is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for our sins. he took Gods wrath on himself so that we wouldnt have to...
so none of this changes that fact. all this calvinism and arminian talk is just to better understand Gods word. but both believe on the main points of the bible, -Jesus's role in our lives. my sould does not on the line here because i disagree with you on certain points.
what is your intention of this "debate"? if its to change my mind i doubt its going to happen. maybe its possible, but most likely not. i will probably learn something though (as i already have). you present a challenge, and i will research it. by researching it (cause i dont know the answer), i learn something.
i guess i just try not to be biased... i have changed my mind on certain beliefs several times... the past couple weeks i didnt know what i believed... most would say that i am flip flopping... but its because i try not to be biased. maybe thats why i see faults in both arguements... while those who defend one or the other, just ignore the verses that argue against them. (maybe with out even realizing it) i have seen several articles that do exactly that. are you going to do that walter?
anyways like i said, if your reading this Leon. i am not falling for anything. walter you may put 75% of all your time on this, but i only only put maybe 25%... figurativly speaking. in otherwords, i do this when i feel like it... i have other intertests as well. sports, video games etc. :)
after i post this, instead of doing research on what you posted, i am going to play some fallout 3 on my ps3 :). (research later)
walter if you feel this is a waste of time, then you dont need to post anymore :)
