This discussion will be a controversial one no doubt but one that I hope all will be open to searching out God's truth as opposed to having preconceptions about what we believe or have been taught.
In dealing with the Spiritual Gifts in the New Testament it is interesting to note that after the initial occurrance at Pentecost in the upper room when the Holy Spirit for the first time descended upon all the disciples that were there, there was only one exception when the Holy Spirit gave gifts prior to the laying on of hands by the Apostles. However an Apostle was present.
The incident was dealing with Peter who was not with the program so to speak so the Holy Spirit had to get him moving. haha. Other than that no one after ever received any of the spiritual gifts UNLESS the Apostles personally laid their hands on that person or the Apostles were at least present. It is also interesting to note that only the Apostles had the power to lay hands and impart spiritual gifts. Whoever received the spiritual gifts never had the power to impart those gifts to someone else. The person receiving gifts had the power of using the gifts but not to pass on the gifts themselves.
One of the most critical passages concerning this issue is below in Acts 8.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves. Phillip did NOT have the power to impart any gifts himself.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
What is often misunderstood by Charismatics and Pentecostals is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone or they had not received the Holy Spirit as yet, it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe?
That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts THROUGH the Apostles by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occurred.
Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures.
In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV
Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receiving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation.
What had to happen?
An Apostle of Jesus Christ had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".
Here is another passage dealing with the special powers given exclusively to the Apostles and those who had received the gifts AT THAT TIME.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
15 & 16 applies to us today as well as this is a commandment for us to spread the Gospel.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Verse 17 & 18 are not for the church today as no one has the legitimate gifts imparted by the Apostles of Christ because they are all dead and in Heaven now. No one today can cast out a demon nor drink poison and expect to live or handle a deadly snake and once bitten expect to live. No one also can lay hands on the sick and heal them today. God can do it and does perform miracles but no human has the" supernatural power" that the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ had. There are many fakers, many frauds and many well meaning deceived Christians who believe that they posses a "supernatural gift" from the Holy Spirit. The problem is that their beliefs are based upon some really bad teachings from gross misinterpretations of scriptures and "feelings". Men like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and their ilk have all been exposed for their fraudulent practices and giving False Prophesies...yet...people still follow them and will not accept the truth about them.
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
I want to point out a few things here. First when the scripture here referres to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them BY the Apostles of Christ. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
Great job on your post! I do want to make a comment on something you said concerning what an "apostle" is.
You said: "Notice that they are now referred to as Apostles, that is because they received the anointing from Christ."
I am not trying to be nit picky but it does not take an anointing so to speak to make someone an apostle. An apostle is simply someone.... "who is sent" with the authority of the sender. I think you already know this and perhaps it was what you mean anyway. I think that might be another post for us. LOL "What is an Apostle?"
Another one I am going to start is. "What is the purpose of Tongues?"
I do agree with your definition, I was just trying to show that God will not send you out to do something without first giving you the means to accomplish it.
At Pentecost, the Apostles had already been anointed by Jesus, that is why you never read of anyone else that was there continuing to do such things. It was a one time thing. Later, the Apostles laid hands on the seven, and they preformed miracles.
I believe a little differently than you, in that I believe it was the Spirit of Christ that entered the world at Pentecost, and the Spirit of God (The Father), that anoints for the preforming of wonders.
I feel this is evidenced by the continued reference to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel. Abraham = the father of our faith. Isaac = the obedient son, who did nothing but what his father told him to do, and whose father even chose his bride. Jacob/Israel = the force that put the plan into action, fathering the 12 tribes. The name thing being representative of so many things, but among them, a prophesy about the duality of the Holy Spirit, one of the Father, the other of the Son. One indwelling us, the other anointing us for His purpose, just as He always has.
I have never heard of anyone else teaching this, but it just seemed so obvious to me.
Interesting position. I am not sure if I agree or disagree with you here. LOL
Let's examine this. How would these passages fit within the context of what you believe?
Luke 24:49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high." NKJV
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; KJV
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. KJV
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: KJV
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. KJV
Act 1:1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." NKJV
Interesting, it will require some thought. The promise could very well still mean what my theory describes, but I need to do some more study. As usual, you have given me something to think about.
Ok Leon and Walter, I have but a few minutes, now that I spent my time on the other thread. But here goes.
As I hope both of you know that the gifts(tools) of the Holy Spirit are given for the works of the ministry. This was then, and remains the same for now, this was the Promise of the Father to pour otu His Spirit upon all who believed in His Son Jesus Christ. The works Jesus did while on earth, are the same works we are to be doing, with the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.
I will start with what Pauls says the gifts are to the believer, because you guys still haven't shown any proof that they are no longer in operation today, you've only shown that you don't believe nor have the faith to receive. Jesus said He couldn't do many works among his people, becasue of their unbeleif. Also, Walter you keep speaking about Simon, he has nothing to do with this, my argument is I disagree with your view that the gifts are not for todya's church, and I say you are in error of what the word says, But you can't show me scritpure proving that the Holy Spirit is no longer operating in the Believer with gifts.
This is not my opinion, this is Bible. What you speak is more of your opinion than scripture because you can't prove otherwise. You ahve yet to show me in the word of God where the gofts are not for today.Noy your or yourp pastor or anyone else's understanding, if you can't back it up with what God says, then its not spiritual wisdom or knowledge of, or from God. I'm interested in what God has to say about Himslef and His gifts and Holy Spirit, and not what man has come to conclude of his own understanding and knoweldge of wht he THINKS is the answer to God's works and Holy Spirit. So this is that...
Romans chapter 12 give us some light: For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function( I said this in my post that Philip was sent to Samaria to accomplish what he was sent for, that was to start the church in Samraia, and Peter and John were sent to administer the Holy Spirit which was given them by God, this was the first time God would shown himself through man... (huh, maybe this is too spiritual for your understanding...LOL) Anywayzzzz,
So we, being many, are one body in Christ,and individually according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them.
Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Romans 12: (1) prophecy (2) ministry (3) teaching (4)exhortation (5) giver (6)leadership (7) mercy.
These are all gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to ALL believers by God for the works of the ministry through the pwoer of the HolySpirit.
Paul then write in I Corinthians chapter 12 and tells us about the gifts that manifested by the Holy Spirit to us as believers for the works of the minsitry through the power of the Holy Spirit.(1) spiritual wisdom (2) spiritual knowledge (3) gift of faith (4) gift of healings (5) the gift of working miracles (6) again the gift of prophecy (7) gift to discern spirits (8)gift of different kind of tongues (languages (9) the gift of interpretation of languages. But one and the smae Holy Spirit works all these things. distrubting to EACH PERSON INDIVIDUALLY AS HE (GOD/HOLY SPIRIT WILLS)
So now in all your human opions and knowledge, you tell me that God is no longer doing these things any more throguh His Holy Spirit?... God showed Himself to the disciples and the people. Then He shoed Himself through the disciples to the people. Now He desire to show Himself In the believers to the world, but no one has the faith to believe, and as I said, Ilhave seen the working of God throguh the power of the Holy Spirit so I know what He's doing today.
Maybe that's why its difficult for you to beleive ... you have not seen. God says we are to walk by faith and not our sight...
Ok Leon and Walter, I have but a few minutes, now that I spent my time on the other thread. But here goes.
As I hope both of you know that the gifts(tools) of the Holy Spirit are given for the works of the ministry. This was then, and remains the same for now, this was the Promise of the Father to pour otu His Spirit upon all who believed in His Son Jesus Christ. The works Jesus did while on earth, are the same works we are to be doing, with the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.
I will start with what Pauls says the gifts are to the believer, because you guys still haven't shown any proof that they are no longer in operation today, you've only shown that you don't believe nor have the faith to receive. Jesus said He couldn't do many works among his people, becasue of their unbeleif. Also, Walter you keep speaking about Simon, he has nothing to do with this, my argument is I disagree with your view that the gifts are not for todya's church, and I say you are in error of what the word says, But you can't show me scritpure proving that the Holy Spirit is no longer operating in the Believer with gifts.
This is not my opinion, this is Bible. What you speak is more of your opinion than scripture because you can't prove otherwise. You ahve yet to show me in the word of God where the gofts are not for today.Noy your or yourp pastor or anyone else's understanding, if you can't back it up with what God says, then its not spiritual wisdom or knowledge of, or from God. I'm interested in what God has to say about Himslef and His gifts and Holy Spirit, and not what man has come to conclude of his own understanding and knoweldge of wht he THINKS is the answer to God's works and Holy Spirit. So this is that...
Romans chapter 12 give us some light: For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function( I said this in my post that Philip was sent to Samaria to accomplish what he was sent for, that was to start the church in Samraia, and Peter and John were sent to administer the Holy Spirit which was given them by God, this was the first time God would shown himself through man... (huh, maybe this is too spiritual for your understanding...LOL) Anywayzzzz,
So we, being many, are one body in Christ,and individually according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them.
Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Romans 12: (1) prophecy (2) ministry (3) teaching (4)exhortation (5) giver (6)leadership (7) mercy.
These are all gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to ALL believers by God for the works of the ministry through the pwoer of the HolySpirit.
Paul then write in I Corinthians chapter 12 and tells us about the gifts that manifested by the Holy Spirit to us as believers for the works of the minsitry through the power of the Holy Spirit.(1) spiritual wisdom (2) spiritual knowledge (3) gift of faith (4) gift of healings (5) the gift of working miracles (6) again the gift of prophecy (7) gift to discern spirits (8)gift of different kind of tongues (languages (9) the gift of interpretation of languages. But one and the smae Holy Spirit works all these things. distrubting to EACH PERSON INDIVIDUALLY AS HE (GOD/HOLY SPIRIT WILLS)
So now in all your human opions and knowledge, you tell me that God is no longer doing these things any more throguh His Holy Spirit?... God showed Himself to the disciples and the people. Then He shoed Himself through the disciples to the people. Now He desire to show Himself In the believers to the world, but no one has the faith to believe, and as I said, Ilhave seen the working of God throguh the power of the Holy Spirit so I know what He's doing today.
Maybe that's why its difficult for you to beleive ... you have not seen. God says we are to walk by faith and not our sight...
Ok Leon and Walter, I have but a few minutes, now that I spent my time on the other thread. But here goes.
As I hope both of you know that the gifts(tools) of the Holy Spirit are given for the works of the ministry. This was then, and remains the same for now, this was the Promise of the Father to pour otu His Spirit upon all who believed in His Son Jesus Christ. The works Jesus did while on earth, are the same works we are to be doing, with the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.
I will start with what Pauls says the gifts are to the believer, because you guys still haven't shown any proof that they are no longer in operation today, you've only shown that you don't believe nor have the faith to receive. Jesus said He couldn't do many works among his people, becasue of their unbeleif. Also, Walter you keep speaking about Simon, he has nothing to do with this, my argument is I disagree with your view that the gifts are not for todya's church, and I say you are in error of what the word says, But you can't show me scritpure proving that the Holy Spirit is no longer operating in the Believer with gifts.
This is not my opinion, this is Bible. What you speak is more of your opinion than scripture because you can't prove otherwise. You ahve yet to show me in the word of God where the gofts are not for today.Noy your or yourp pastor or anyone else's understanding, if you can't back it up with what God says, then its not spiritual wisdom or knowledge of, or from God. I'm interested in what God has to say about Himslef and His gifts and Holy Spirit, and not what man has come to conclude of his own understanding and knoweldge of wht he THINKS is the answer to God's works and Holy Spirit. So this is that...
Romans chapter 12 give us some light: For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function( I said this in my post that Philip was sent to Samaria to accomplish what he was sent for, that was to start the church in Samraia, and Peter and John were sent to administer the Holy Spirit which was given them by God, this was the first time God would shown himself through man... (huh, maybe this is too spiritual for your understanding...LOL) Anywayzzzz,
So we, being many, are one body in Christ,and individually according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them.
Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Romans 12: (1) prophecy (2) ministry (3) teaching (4)exhortation (5) giver (6)leadership (7) mercy.
These are all gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to ALL believers by God for the works of the ministry through the pwoer of the HolySpirit.
Paul then write in I Corinthians chapter 12 and tells us about the gifts that manifested by the Holy Spirit to us as believers for the works of the minsitry through the power of the Holy Spirit.(1) spiritual wisdom (2) spiritual knowledge (3) gift of faith (4) gift of healings (5) the gift of working miracles (6) again the gift of prophecy (7) gift to discern spirits (8)gift of different kind of tongues (languages (9) the gift of interpretation of languages. But one and the smae Holy Spirit works all these things. distrubting to EACH PERSON INDIVIDUALLY AS HE (GOD/HOLY SPIRIT WILLS)
So now in all your human opions and knowledge, you tell me that God is no longer doing these things any more throguh His Holy Spirit?... God showed Himself to the disciples and the people. Then He shoed Himself through the disciples to the people. Now He desire to show Himself In the believers to the world, but no one has the faith to believe, and as I said, Ilhave seen the working of God throguh the power of the Holy Spirit so I know what He's doing today.
Maybe that's why its difficult for you to beleive ... you have not seen. God says we are to walk by faith and not our sight...
I think you need to reread what I posted. I not only showed you in scripture where it said these things would stop, but I gave you biblical examples since the time of Moses that this is the way it ALWAYS works. I know this isn't what people want to hear, and I know it will not change your mind.
It is just like showing a Pentecostal the passage that says tongues without an interpreter has no place in the church. They offer the same argument that you just disproved over and over and still go to the church and speak in tongues.
The truth is, we get so caught up in our beliefs that we are not going to hear any different.
If you go back to my post, you will see that I answered all these and more....all with scripture.
Show me where you pointed out in scrioture where GOD said the gifts of His Holy Spirit would /have end/ceased....
I don't understand why you guys are so spiritually one dimensional and can't seem to see or understand into the depth of what the word is saying. Hopefully, the Holy Spirit will help you guys to spirually connect these dots... In the Old Testament from Genesis to Malachi, God revealed Himself to man... In the New Testament from Matthew to John, God revealed Himself through Jesus Christ to man. In the Book of Acts God revealed Himself through the Holy Spirit to man... and from Romans to Jude, God reveals Himself IN man to all who believe and have received the power of His Holy Spirit.
God is soveregin, and there is not a man on earth who can dictate how He manifest His power of gifts through the Holy Spirit... No matter what you think or believe... the gifts of the Holy Spirit are to those who believe and have faith to receive.... and I would darn either one of you to ask God to help your unbelief and prove to you that the Holy Spirit is still giving our gifts.... I dare ya...:winksmile: to even think it!:yay:
But, I still have not seen one scripture wherein it would lead me or anyone to believe that the gifts have ceased to be... as Paul writes in I Corinthians chapter 2, eyes have not seen, nor ears heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except thespirit of the man which is is him.there is not a man who knows the things of God, except the spirit of the man that is in him. Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God... But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned...
Love ya too, but it changes nothing:excited::laugh:
Maybe somebody learnt something, I didn't...:nahnah::peace: out.
Wonder why my post posted three times... Must be God trying to tell you guys something... that you have need to read again and again.... supernatural repost:excited::excited::ROFL::angel:
