I asked a question on another thread and was told is was silly and irrelevant. The question was : Is it likely that a man on a deserted island with only a Bible would come up with Calvinism, Tulip, The Doctrines of Grace, Reformation Theology (all the same thing).
I think it is a totally relevant question and not silly at all. Here is why: If a person cannot read the Bible alone and come to Calvinism on their own then 'logically' Calvinism must come from a source outside the Bible.
James just to remind, maybe it is an oversight on your part, but you seem to think scripture means what reformers tell you it means, and when you are confronted with scripture that is so very clear and against your doctrine you do one of two things, ignore the scripture, or say that you can list twenty scriptures that prove your point, and you have yet to do just that, you have never listed any scripture that declares that man in spiritual death, is unable to respond to the lord in faith, and not only that James they did it in the old testament, without the holy spirit. there are multitudes of scriptures that show us man doing just what you say they can't.
AN OUTLINE OF THE THEOLOGICAL INTERPRETATIONS CONCERNING I TlMOTHY 4:10: "WE TRUST IN THE LIVING GOD, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE."
I. SOTERIOLOGICAL INTERPRETATIONS.
A. Universal Salvation.
1. God is the Saviour of all man in the sense that ultimately He actually saves each and every human being who has lived or will on the earth.
2. Objection. This view is contrary to all biblical teaching. Not all men are saved in the full, spiritual sense. Moreover, if this were true, why would Paul have added, "specially of those who believe"? The last phrase of this verse would make no sense.
B. Free Will Salvation.
1. God wants (desires) all men without exception by their own free will to be saved (cf. 1Tim. 2:4). However, in the case of some, His will can be and is effectually resisted through obstinate unbelief, because man has a free will and God will not force His will upon man. As a result, God's foreknowledge is understood to mean foresight; that is, God foresees who will believe and chooses them to be saved (cf. Notes on 1Tim. 2:4).
2. Objection. The text in I Timothy 4:10 does not say that God wants (desires) to save, but that He actually saves: He is actually the Saviour (in some sense) of all men. Also, resisting the divine will � in the absolute sense � is impossible. Likewise, it is impossible for God's foreknowledge to be limited (even voluntarily or by man's faith). Otherwise God would not be God! (Cf. Acts 13:48; Eph. 1:11; 2:8-9; Phil. 1:29.) Furthermore, the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge," when used of God, does not mean mere foresight, but an everlasting, intimate relationship stemming from an eternal electing love (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; Eph. 1:4-5; I Pet. 1:2).
C. Modified Free Will Salvation.
1. God is able (has provided) salvation for all men without exception upon the condition of faith. But all can not (will not) be saved, only those who exercise faith; that is, only the elect are actually saved: the non-elect are only provisionally or hypothetically saved (placed in a salvable position) but are never actually saved.
2. Objection. While it is true that only those who believe will be saved, this interpretation of the text dodges the issue. The verse does not say that the living God is able to save, but has provided salvation for all men without exception. It says, "He is the Saviour of all men." But "all men have not faith" (II Thess. 3:2) because saving faith is a gift from God; is it not (Phil. 1:29; II Thess. 2:13)? If faith is a gift from God, why does not God give saving faith to all men without exception? Does one's ability to believe lie within his own will (cf. John 1:13; 6:44; Jas. 1:18), or solely within the sovereign grace and good pleasure of God? (Cf. Matt. 11:25-27; John 6:63; Eph. 1:11; II Tim. 1:9.)
D. Distributive Salvation.
1. God actually bestows salvation � in the full, evangelical sense of the term � on all kinds (classes) of men. He gives to all of them everlasting life; that is, He gives everlasting life to all kinds (classes) of men. "All" is a relative rather than an absolute term.
2. Objection. Although It is true that God does desire that prayers be made on behalf of the salvation of all kinds (classes) of people (cf. Rom. 9:24; 1Tim. 2:1-2, 4; Rev. 5:9; 7:9), this truth does not fit the context here because of the final phrase, "specially of those that believe."
II. NONSOTERIOLOGlCAL-SOTERlOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION (FREE GRACE SALVATION).
A. This is the correct interpretation. It is found by making a thorough study of the term "Saviour" (in both its noun and verb forms1) in the context of the chapter, the epistle, the New Testament and the Old Testament.2 The final phrase "specially of those that believe" clearly Indicates that the term is here given a twofold application. Of all men God is the Saviour, but of some men, namely, believers, He is the Saviour in a deeper, more glorious sense than He is of others.
This clearly implies that when He Is called the Saviour of all men, this cannot mean that He imparts to all everlasting life, as He does to believers. The term "Saviour," then, must have a meaning which we today generally do not immediately attach to it. And that is exactly the cause of the difficulty. Often In the Old Testament, the term meant "to deliver � (verbal form) or deliverer (nominal form)" � both with reference to men and God (cf. Judg. 3:9; II Kings 13:5; Neh. 9:27; Ps. 25:5; 106:21). Also, in the New Testament, reference is made to the Old Testament where God delivered Israel from the oppression of Pharaoh for He had been the Saviour of all, but specially those who believed. With the latter, and with them alone, He was "well pleased" (I Cor. 10:5). All leave Egypt; not all enter Canaan." POINT: In both the Old and New Testaments the term "Saviour" is often used to speak of God's providential preservation or deliverance which extends to all men without exception. (Cf. Ps. 36:6; 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 17:25, 28.) Moreover, God also causes His gospel of salvation to be earnestly proclaimed to all men without distinction; that is, to men from every race and nation (Matt. 28:19). Truly the kindness (providence or common grace) of God extends to all. But even the circle of those to whom the message of salvation is proclaimed is wider than those who receive it by a true saving faith.
B. Conclusion. A paraphrase of what Paul is teaching in I Timothy 4:10 is this: "We have our hope set on the living God, and in this hope we shall not be disappointed, for not only is He a kind God, hence the Saviour (i.e., preserver or deliverer in a providential, non-soteriological sense) of all men, showering blessings upon them, but He is, in a very special sense, the Saviour (in a soteriological sense) of those who by faith embrace Him and His promise, for to them He imparts salvation, everlasting life in all its fulness.
THE LIVING GOD IS THE PROVIDENTIAL PRESERVER OF ALL MEN; BUT HE IS ESPECIALLY SO FOR BELIEVERS, FOR HE NOT ONLY PHYSlCALLY AND TEMPORALLY DELIVERS THEM, BUT HE ALSO SPIRITUALLY AND ETERNALLY SAVES THEM.
1The verb form of "Saviour" is used in I Timothy 4:16. Unless salvation is by works and not by grace, it must be translated "preserve" or "deliver" in verse 16. And this makes sense in context. For Paul is saying to Timothy: "Take heed unto thyself, and unto thy doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt save thyself (i.e., preserve or deliver thyself from those who depart from the faith and teach false doctrine as described in the first part of the chapter), and them that hear thee." Furthermore, the term "living God" is used elsewhere in conjunction with His providence (cf. Acts 14.15).
Shared Screaming outload ~ AN OUTLINE OF THE THEOLOGICAL INTERPRETATIONS CONCERNING I TlMOTHY 4:10: "WE TRUST IN THE LIVING GOD, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE."
*** Seems like this Hendrickson Dude has a lot of Objections bout God's word...:goofball:...xo
Jh6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
JN 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Jh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
That is a good one James in context it agrees with everything else Jesus said concerning the lost and he that would be saved.
Verse 40 every one that seeth the son and believeth on him shall have everlasting life.
6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Theses verses are still in the same conversation and they say the same thing.
In rightly dividing you gather all scriptures on the topic and here we are talking about coming to the lord.
And we balance all topics out with the lord, just so we are clear, mankind did not have the holy spirit under the old covenant to help them or draw them as you say.
MT 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Shared ~ The written word is the voice of God. Thank you PJ...xo
Reformers Bible NIV ~
I TlMOTHY 4:10: "WE TRUST IN THE LIVING GOD, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE."
KJV ~
1 Timothy 4:10~ [� For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,] [ because ] we trust in the living God, [ who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.�]
NIV is missing some words so you might not get the same Meaning of the Word�the Word says in vs10c that God is the Saviour of ( all ) men, specially of those that believe...This is Truth...by God's Word...Calvinism says that aint so, God does not save ALL men...Who is Right ? GOD or Calvin ???...xo
Shared ~ The [[[ Arminians ]]] say Jesus died for [[[ everyone ]]] who ever lived. The [[[ Calvinists ]]] say Jesus died specifically for [[[ the Elect.]]]
*** This is what the Intire Battle Betwix 2 Dead Dudes is about...SOooo...you Read and Compare the verses and See what you See...The question is...What is GOD saying ???...NOt what does Ariminians or Calvinists say...xo
