I have tried very hard, searching the scriptures to prove your doctrines as truth. However, such scripture has eluded me.
This is a very simple request.
Can you provide me with 4 scriptures and 4 scriptures only?
One each for the first 4 points of reformed doctrine.
1) Total Depravity ~ Need a scripture that says plainly man lost the ability to choose as a result of the fall. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
2) Unconditional Election ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says God chooses from all men unconditionally a few to save. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
3) Limited Atonement ~ Need a scripture that plainly says Christ's Atonement on the cross only covers a few, not the whole world. ( Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
4) Irresistible Grace ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says no man can resist the Grace of God. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
*If you all cannot provide one plain straight forward scripture for each point, then it is quite plain you have gone beyond Scripture ....wouldn't you agree?
Yes, Romans 9 does speak of Isreal, and notice that it goes beyond that. Romans 9 is an explanation for why the word of God has not failed even though God�s chosen people, Israel, as a whole, are not turning to Christ and being saved. The sovereignty of God�s grace is brought in as the final ground of God�s faithfulness in spite of Israel�s failure.
In Romans 9:3 Paul says, �I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." Only notice now that this is the plight of Israel: "accursed and cut off from Christ." Now that raises a huge problem! What about the word of God � the word of promise to Israel and covenant: "I will be your God, and you will be my people!" (Jer. 31:33).
So Paul answers this question in verse 6: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." You can see what was at stake. It looks as though the word of God has failed! But Paul says no. Then he gives the explanation that launches him into the doctrines of unconditional election and divine sovereignty over human willing. (The passage I posted earlier). His explanation in verse 6 is: "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." Not all physical Israel is true Israel. In other words, the word of God has not failed because the promises were not made to all ethnic Israel in such a way that secured the salvation of every individual Israelite. So while Romans 9 is addressed to the Jews, it does have the theme of election and soveriengty within it as spoken to us.
Not to get off track, but just a quick thought on Jacob, Esau and the Pharoah :
Esau was blessed by God also, but the promise was to come through Jacob. So saying God hated Esau without looking at the big picture presents the wrong meaning to the sentence.
As for the Pharoah, the bible said God "raised" him up for this, not that God created him for this, or even that God "unconditionally elected" him for this. In my opinion, this man was somehow "predisposed" to be the right man for the job and God used him.
My question at this point of the debate is this: (and I'm not against debates, but the length of one could become a "flesh slam dunk")
Is the "Holy Spirit" leading anyone to bring free-will truth to James or are you just trying to change his way of thinking on the merry-go-round that has been going for..... quite a while?
Because, the Holy Spirit is the only one who can change(convict) us (our beliefs)... if we are teachable.
As Christians, we show the fruit of our salvation by the way we talk to each other, and I am humbled and honored to call you my sister in Christ. :bow:
One thing for sure: If we have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ that we are all Christians. I think that as we all are open to the word of God we will see there are elements of God's ultimate Soverienty over man's responsibilty as well, but as a response to your question and the Romans 9 I have posted, I would say that it addresses elements of salvation in vs. 21-24
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Paul was a Jew among Jews, one who persecuted Christians. His eyes had been opened, I can only imagine the heart he had for his brethren, wanting them to see what he saw, yet God sent him to the Gentiles. You can hear the desire for his people to see, but if you read other Pauline Scriptures you see Paul knows God will keep his promises to Israel when the time of the Gentiles is fullfilled.
In summary, this text does not say why God chose to do it this way, in fact if you read on you will see that the reasons were conditioned on Israel's response. I agree this text points to God's Sovereignty and even to election, but not "unconditional" election.
The story of the potter is a beautiful one and a potter never slaps clay on the wheel with the purpose of making it for destruction. He may have to throw some clay back because it is not pliable or too weak, but He always wants to create a work of art.
The pottery can also crack and be out back on the wheel to be patched with the blood of insects and mud paste and remade and then used again.
The vessel is prepared for destruction after it has cracked too bad to hold anything or be of good use. The potter then makes the destiny decision and even then He may salvage it for something else (heaven?). Peace....
For...ALLl Who Call on the Name of the Lord Will be Saved � Romans 10:13
1Sa 6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Heeeeeeey! Joey, don't stop... finish with the vessels of destruction and the vessels of mercy. You k'ain't just stop! you were on a roll explaining God's divine purpose in response to 2sarrows comment. Everything Gid does,He does it with His own purpose in mind for His own glory, and to glorify His creation.Come back Joey and finish!:excited:
You know, What is amazing to me is that if the Holy Spirit is indeed in charge of giving understanding into God's word, why is it that not many on this thread are in agreement with what the word has to say? I can't hear the Spirit speaking but in a few who are explaining the scriptures the give out, and God is not of twisted understanding of His own word...:excited::...I hear many scriptures, and more spiritual opinions than spiritual insight going on in the scriptures... jumping all over the place to another, never getting the first cleared up... simply amazing... I'm just saying...
Anywhooo, Margo, you go grrrrl, and I would just like to add that verse 6, of chapter 9, Paul is speaking about Ishmal's decendants, when he says not all of Israel is of Israel,. Rememeber, the promise was to Abraham's decendants through the promise. Isaac was the son of promise, and not Ishmal therefore, this is what Paul is speaking about. Also, Jacob was also called Israel, and given a promise. But the promise came through Abraham seed of promise who was Issac and Isaac's seed/decendants... and who was Jacob's father...Isaac
Our spiritual fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob God made the promise...
2sparrow, God says he loved Jacob and hated Esua. God is not speaking of hate as His emoitnional ahte for him as we know hate to mean. But what He is saying is that He dispised the offering (worship) Esua offered up to Him, becasue oit was not from his heart. Jacob was blessed by God, but Esua WAS NOT BLESSED by God because of his sacrifice offering to God. Jacob offered (worship) up to God an offering from his heart and never failed to bless God. Esua was selfih and self-centered.
Also, Pharaoh was ful of pride and arrogance, and hardhead, therefore, after God had given him many chances to make a change, and he refused, God used his rebellious spirit against him for His own eternal purposes to show His power, same as He does today.
I have to respectfully disagree with your posts concerning Ishmael and Esau. I suggest you reread Genesis chapter 25 and 36. As for your post on the Pharoah, you may be correct, however it is speculative; the Scripture doesn't say what you said. This puts you beyond the confines of Scripture, in the same territory I think TULIP is, that is unless someone can prove it different.
