In previous threads over the past couple days, there has been a huge problem become evident which has yet to been dealt with in the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate. The problem is this: Both sides have presented Scriptures supporting their arguments. It's like you've got one side saying, "These are the Calvinistic verses!" and the other, "These are the Arminian verses!" because Scripture is both of our authorities. However, Scripture cannot contradict itself, thus one of these views has wrongly interpreted some Scripture passages. Scriptures must be in agreement, thus if an interpretation can be shown to go against a *clear* teaching of Scripture, then the interpretation *must* be wrong. That said, I want to look at one particular point and that is total depravity and its implications.
This thread is meant to answer the question "Are we dead in sin?" And if the answer is yes, "Does this mean we are totally depraved or have total spiritual inability?" These questions, and these ONLY are to be discussed. Please limit your arguments to these parameters.
Ephesians 2 talks about being "dead in trespasses and sins" (v1) and how we were "dead in sins" (v5). As many of you well know, this is a proof text for Calvinism, if it can be shown that "dead in sins" does not equal "total depravity/total inability" then the Calvinism would be, at best, very badly injured.
So...Are we dead in sins? And please explain what that means.
and BTW< BEFORE CHRIST'S DEATH on the cross, MAN was indeed INCAPABLE OF SAVING HIMSELF. what do you think the prupsoe of the cross was for?
This passages PROVES that HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR CHRIST man would be doomed for hell. I don't think you are reading what I have written with clear understanding. CHRIST MADE MAN ALIVE, in othe rwords Christ's death brought man back again spiritually to where man was in the beginning. This is why I say oif you don't have a clear undersatmnding of what it means to be reconcilated, then one tends to put their own spin on what Paul is speaking about, and not understand the rpocess of what or how we are born again, or what or how we are restored, made alive in Christ.
Paul was not speaking only to the newly converted Gentile believers in Ephesus, but the Ephesian church was mixed with Jewsish believers as well.
"....if you are placing yourself in a position as a teacher in the word, or as a person who has knowledge in the word,..."
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I do not presume to place myself as a "teacher in the word". There is only one teacher, the Holy Spirit. I merely share, the Holy Spirit can use whatever He desires to teach.
I am only wanting "discussion" on a Bible verse, isn't that the topic post? : What does Eph 2:1 mean?
Everyone has gone to great lengths to declare "their" doctrine, yet no one wants to look closely at the passage and discuss it together. I thought a fun thing for fellow Christians to do. However, I must be mistaken, so I have resorted to discussing with myself.
"Paul was not speaking only to the newly converted Gentile believers in Ephesus, but the Ephesian church was mixed with Jewsish believers as well."
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Speculatively speaking you are probably correct, however that only strengthens what I have shared.
Btw....remember that context thing?.....Eph 2:11 ~ " Therefore remember that formerly you who are gentiles my birth and called uncircumcised by those who call themselves circumcision...... excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise"
In context Paul is predominantly speaking to Gentiles.
Perhaps I am being to complicated, if so I apologize. I will apologize not only in word but also in deed:
Here you go......
We are discussing what Eph 2:1 means. The key word in this verse is the word "dead". Whole doctrines have been built on the exact meaning poured into this word.
Here is a perfect example how this word is used figuratively and literally in the same verse :
Matt 8:22 But Jesus told him, "Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead."
Do you see it?
Interesting to note this was said before the cross and before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
2sparrow, yes, Paul was speaking to the Gentiles believers, and ALL believrs, explaining how it is that we are reconciled back to God. He was also speaking to all those who made up the church in Ephesus, and there were also many Jews who were apart of the church, when he made this statement camparing and contarsting the Gentiles (uncircumcision) and the Jews (circumcision) in relationship to the PROMISE. Because the Gentiles was consider left out and separeted from the Jewsih people/Israel based on the Promise given to Abraham. The Jews also looked down on the Gentiles (nonJews) and the useage of the word uncircumsion was used as a derogatory term referring to the Gentiles by the Jews, who thought they had the ONLY way to God through circumcision, which was written in the law.
Therefore, Paul is making the point that now God through Jesus Christ, has made the Gentiles and Jews as one equal, and the Gentiles also had the same blessing of the Promise as the Jews through Christ that God made to Abraham. Because now both Jews and Gentiles are ONE in Christ and have the same inheritance, becasue Christ has joined us all together as one bringing (reconciling) us back to God, as one in Christ through the cross, which now makes us one through salvation. The Jews thought they had more access to God because they were given the law and followed the law, and the blessing, and the promise, and the Gentiles were left out, but through Christ's death God changed this around. But Christ abolished the works of the lasw when He came to earth and died on the cross. We all were born in SIN because of Adam, the father of our sin in nature.
Paul put it this way to the church in Colossus, in chapter 2, For in Christ lives the all the fulness of the Gdhead bodily. And you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and powers, in whom you are also circumsised (meaning spiritually) with the circumcision that is not made my hand, so that you are now able to put away the body of sins of the flesh by the circumsion of Christ. You are buried with Him in baptism (water baptism) wherein you are risen with Him through the faith by the works of God, who has raised Him from the dead. And you,once being DEAD IN YOUR SINS and called the uncircumcision in your flesh, Christ has now quickened (made alive) you together with Him, having forgiven you of ALL YOUR TRESPASSES (SINS), and blotted out the handwriting of the law that was against us, and also contrary to us, and has taken it all out, and nailed it to His cross.
I really don't know what else you feel is not being discussed here.... I'm discussing but I don't hear any feedback to what I'm discussing...:zzzz:
Yes, the Holy Spirit teaches us in all things that are truth pretaining to understanding God's word, and we are to be able to explain what it is that He is teaching us, in order to share it with others in the learning process for thier spiritual benefit.
So what is Jesus saying here? Is He speaking about this figuritive or literally?...Let the dead, bury the dead?
Jesus is speaking about both, let the dead meaning those who are spiirtually dead, bury those who are physically dead, not breathing anymore, and He is directing this to the young (all those) man who said he would follow Jesus, but first, he had to go to a funeral, so Jesus lets him(us) know that he(we) was spiritually dead, if he could not forsake everything and follow Him.
Paul is speaking the same thing, BEFORE, WE WERE BORN AGAIN, gave our hearts to Christ, we were DEAD IN OUR SINS, meaning wihtout Christ in our lives, separated from God, wlaking after the lusts of our flesh, doing our own thing.
Then one day, we saw the error of our ways and came to repentance of our sins, and asked Christ t come inot our hearts, and forgive us of our sins.
When this was done, God quicken us (made us alive) again spiritually, as of we had never sinned, and placed us in right standing with Him, and gave us HIS RIGHTEUSNESS, by sending His Holy Spiriit, WHO IS THE PROMISE, inot our hearts to finish the work of cleaning us up, so that we will be fit and complete before God for His kingdom.:glow::applause:
If a person cannot accept the concept that before Christ death on the cross, an evne so after you have become born again that he/she is only a filty rag before God, and no not one person on earth is good, as Paul states in Romasn chapter3, becasue we are incapable of doing anything on our own ourside of God to save oursleves... it makes it rather difficult to believe that you(generic you) were born is sin, and have a sin nature, and the only way one can be clean or changed and made anew is through Christ. Because most people with self pride, who have not totally submitted to Christ are full of pride because they think they are good people, but what they miss is that these are their own thoughts, and not God's thoughts who says we are not good, only He is good. If man was good, he would be able to obey God's word without sinning, and be in obedience., then God would not have needed for Jesus to die on the corss and become a sacrifice of sin for us.
2sparrow, are you reading what I have posted? Moreover, are you understanding waht God's word says. Or you truly understanding that before you were born again, you walked in darkness and sin... DEAD IN YOUR SINS! WITHOUT CHIRST IN YOUR LIFE!
Responding to God has nothing to do with man's condition BEFORE you were born again in Chirst. Before Christ you were DEAD, NOT CONCISOUS OF CHIRST, WALK WITHOUT SPIRITUAL LIFE.
I can't figure out why in the world you are not getting all of this, maybe its your pride refusing to let accept the fact that you were once a SINNER ON YOUR WAY TO HELL, UNTIL GOD STEPPED IN TO SAVE YOU.
Definition of SPIRITUAL DEAD IN SINS... without spirutal life, or vitality, no conscience,, no spiritual excitement or interest, not effective, no pity,, NO SPIRITUAL LIGHT, in total darkness, SEPARATED FROM GOD...
now. :ROFL: