The deceptiveness of �free will� is found in its so-called simplicity: IF �we choose� to obey God, we can; and if �we decide� to rebel against God, we can do this too. The problem with this thinking is that in what �we can do� to please God, this is WORKS, and therefore NOT the grace of God at work, so that we could be willing to be doing under HIS workmanship, NOT �ours�.
At this present time, there are but a FEW who are acting according to the election of grace (Rom 11:5). Note that this election process is of grace: Now if it is �by grace�, [God working] then it is no more �of works� [�our own work/choosing�]; Otherwise it is no more grace (11:6). Grace by works is because we have not obtained election by grace without works: Most herein found are blind to their contradiction of being �in works for grace� (11:5-7); And this is because God has given them a slumbering spirit (11:8); And this is so that they could be entrapped (11:9); And this is because they cannot hear what they need to hear, and see what they need to see (11:8). These believers have stumbled unto falling into darkness (11:11-10).
Those who love this darkness of being into �Their Own Works� rather than the light of being in God working ARE IN CONDEMNATION (Jn 3:19 and 21). Whatever we are into which we have done for �Our� justification [�our will, way, words, or works�], and we have fallen from grace/God�s will, way, words, and works (Gal 5:4). Unless we can acknowledge God�s will, we do not get repentance to be in this truth, so that we could be recovered from the devil�s will (2Tim 2:25-26). The faithful saying is (NOT by �our will�) but dead with Him, so that we could live with Him, and suffer with Him, so that we could reign with Him: Deny this, and He will deny you! (2:11-12). NOTE He cannot deny self (2:13); IT IS �WE� WHO ARE TO DENY �SELF� (Matt 16:24).
Whosoever wills {is in �their own will�} loses the ability to come after Jesus unto losing their soul (16:25-24 and 26); Beware of this leavening doctrine of the Pharisees [free will] (16:11-12). IF you believe in God by �your choice/choosing� then you are trapped into worshipping God in a place on this earth, in your body when God says He does NOT dwell in temples/churches that have been made with �men�s hands� (Acts 17:24-25). God is commanding everyone everywhere to Repent of This IGNORANT worship! (17:30); Because God says we MUST worship Him in spirit, and in truth (Jn 4:24-23). Humanity has fallen from God�s will be done in spirit into man�s will be done in body! The fall is from being IN spirit (Is 31:3).
Disciples are known for their love towards one another, in the truth, AND in the actions of love including affection, and esteeming others above yourself because the Royal commandment is to LOVE...
(Rom 12:10, Gal 5:13-14, Eph 4:2, Heb 10:24, 1Pet 1:22, 1Jn 4:7)
I agree with you 100%, You have addressed the important, the same I am trying to bring to light. However I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question either...hehehe
You are the best! You are the only one that actually saw both what I was saying and answered the question!
However I would like to address your post:
You gave a definition "to know", then went on to say it means to foreknow. If God lives outside of time God does not foreknow anymore than He afterknows, He simply just knows!
I referred to "Foreknew" as going beyond just foreknowing, but to indicate a love relationship with the chosen, the relationship is what was being emphasized.
So in considering scripture,
�For whom He foreknew (loved), He also predestined (mark out, appoint, or determine beforehand) to become conformed to the image of His Son�� (Romans 8: 29)
Consider Ephesians 1:4: �Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him, In love (ref. to foreknowledge) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to (what?) the kind intention of His will.
Time began when God created the world. If He was bound by time and space, (and we agree that He is not), He would have had to operate within the span of our �time� to look back to see that we chose Him. But He didn�t BECAUSE (sorry for the caps) he determined all before time or creation ever took place. This excludes anything we could have said, chosen ourselves, or done.
We will always try to figure out God�s ways within the realm of man and can only do so much to reconcile God�s soverienty with free will. There is a cyclical nature to the two in our reality, but it will always originate from God.
Inside musing with Two: We are a bug, inside our bucket, floating in a swimming pool. (Everybody else never mind what I just said with that sentence. It is highly theological). :laugh:
With your permission I would like to muse some more.....
You shared :
"Time began when God created the world. If He was bound by time and space, (and we agree that He is not), He would have had to operate within the span of our �time� to look back to see that we chose Him. But He didn�t BECAUSE (sorry for the caps) he determined all before time or creation ever took place. This excludes anything we could have said, chosen ourselves, or done."
*My muse:
God being Outside Time, does not need to look back because Be knows the end of things before He starts. Not fore or aft ... "He just simply knows" In my opinion this is where the doctrine of election runs aground : We (both of us) do not know the "criteria" God uses to elect individuals. Therefore neither of us can say if a individual has anything to do with his election or not.
You also shared:
"We will always try to figure out God�s ways within the realm of man and can only do so much to reconcile God�s soverienty with free will. There is a cyclical nature to the two in our reality, but it will always originate from God."
Two, faith comes from the word of God as outlined in the parable of the sower, it always is relative to the will of man in every step. Man must first hear the word, second believe the word and third his action in agreement with the word heard is faith, there is no faith in man's corruption of the word of God, this is the revelation of the law of sowing and reaping and it always works in the heart of the hearer that believes and is a doer of the word
hot dog, I am a day late and a dollor short.In one day all of you have made this into 4 pages.I will now have to get my bible out and really do some studing to jump back in.:dancingp: Dennis
