Thread: The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
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The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 31 Dec, 2010 02:48 PM
Hello everyone:
I thought the last topic i had posted was the last,yet this will be the very last one.
There are a few people that might be thinking:
'When Yeshua saved me He had gotten a pretty good deal'.
I can't be that bad,i see myself as a good person.
I obeyed my parents.
I have never been arrested in my entire life.
I have been a faithful spouse.
I am a faithful church goer.
I tithe
I have never touched illegal drugs.
I have never drank alcoholic drinks.
I have never stolen anything.
I help others.
I'm a good and faithful employee
Etc.and so on.
Now what is wrong with this person,some might say,wellllll i do not know.
The problem is "I".
"I" is,and will always be the problem.
There is a saying,i think it goes like this.
One day a man who was trusting Yeshua to save him from the wrath of GOD,had this experience.
He looked into the mirror and asked the LORD,Who or what is the cause of all the troubles,and problems in my life.
Then still looking in the mirror,the Holy Spirit shows this person,that they themself have been and will always be the problem..
Yet the Holy Spirit also reveals Who Yeshua is,and what He is like to this same person,along with the Grace and Mercy of GOD..
Here are a few Sriptures which tell of mans depravity.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Deu 15:9 Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
Pro 6:15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Seeing that the heart of man not able to completely obey the LORD without looking for something in return.
Know this that each and every single person in this life is WORSE than what they know about themselves.
Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of GOD,not one person in this life would be able to stand before YHWH.
Had Yesuha not gone to the cross,we would all be doomed.
So the next time anyone shares the Gospel with someone,and that person thinks that they are pretty good;Just ask them this one question.
Why did Yeshua/Jesus have to die!
Then continue proclaiming the Gospel to them.
Agape' and Charis:
George
ps:
Though a person might do what we would consider to be good things,Yet there is not one thing anyone can do to make themselves righteous in the sight of GOD.
Only Yeshua is able to do this,through imputing His rigtheousness to those trusting Him,to save them from the wrath of GOD.
The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 3 Jan, 2011 06:21 PM
Leon,
Yes....The trouble with analogies...lol
I am not saying I think satan slept with eve. Rather that adam's and eve's disobedience changed us on a fundamental and even genetic level. Something that would be passed down from generation to generation; like DNA memory. A veritable seed predisposed to sin when germinated and grown produces death.
However, you seem like a fun person to discuss with, so I have more to share in another post.
The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 3 Jan, 2011 07:16 PM
Hi TS
You said
"I choose to work with that horse, I catch him, I lead him, put him in a round pen and train on him all the while trying to build a bond of trust between us. I can set it up, but the horse has to choose. Choose to accept my offer to trust and learn and you will be given a good home and well taken care of. Reject my offer and be sold to the killers for dog food.
After awhile even mere man can look at a horse and have a pretty good idea which way a horse will go ahead of time. How much more can God look at us and know."
You asked: Does every horse get brought into the round pen?
If I understand you right, here are the components of your analogy:
You = God
horses = individuals in mankind
round pen = a place to draw the horses to you
In your illustration, you don't yet know which horses will respond to you. Yes, you seek out the horse, set up the circumstances for him to respond but wait to see if he responses. Some horses respond, some don't. Some are able to resist. Those that are not responsive and do not perservere in their training, you have no choice but to hand them over to the killers for dog food. Despite your greatest efforts, the horse has essentially carved his own fate. Those that respond have essentially chosen their own fate as well, because they had to make the choice, not you. You are limited in their ultimate end. Your hands are tied at this point.
Let's look at Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, he also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
The difference in your illustration and this scripture is that the scripture shows an unlimited God. He is not bound by time or space. When he foreknew us, He also called and caused us to have the capacity to choose Him. It is all part and parcel, and as good as a done deal soley based on His good pleasure. If we are chosen, it is determined that we will be saved. If we are saved, we will perservere. If we perserve, it is determined that we will be glorified. He does not pick every horse in the pasture, and there isn't any minute of doubt which way the horse (ie child of God) will go. The horse (person) is saved when he is chosen - outside the pen.
The analogy of the round pen in this model would be a place where the horses are trained to live the life they were/are meant to live. Parallel this with the Christian life, this is where we grow in trust and bond more and more with God, because we cannot trust someone we don't yet know. This is where we are disciplined (only children of God are disciplined) and are conformed to the image of Christ.
I understand what you are saying in your analogy, and it is a good one, but it doesn't quite fit because horse and people are different, and human trainers (limited) and God (unlimited) are not the same.
The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 3 Jan, 2011 07:19 PM
Interesting but not totally convinced that we are the "seed" of satan.
What about Enoch who walked with God and was not? Elijah who was taken up in the chariot? Noah was a righteous man and him and his family spared? Abraham pleaded with the Lord to spare any righteous people in Sodom and saved his nephew Lot?
Did God see them as the seed of satan? Curious, but this is good for study. :)
The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 3 Jan, 2011 08:09 PM
Leon,
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Does this mean John fathered all these people he's speaking to?
The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 3 Jan, 2011 08:21 PM
Leon,
Please don't think I am being contentious, however questions do pop into my mind like: If God in election can distinguish between the seed of His and the seed of satan, then why all of this? ie: the world, Christ, the Gospel, etc...Why does He subject His creation to frustration so the sons of God are revealed?
The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 3 Jan, 2011 09:07 PM
JS, do you believe the people you mentioned were unrepentant? If I wasn't clear in my previous post, that was my point. If you read the OT, you will notice that the Holy Spirit was active then as well. There were always the Prophets who spoke with God, of which, all you named were a part. Since God's Spirit was upon them, they were separated and purified.
The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 3 Jan, 2011 09:17 PM
TruthSlinger,
I know what you are getting at, but the answer is yes and no. Yes, he fathered them spiritually, in that he was leading them to all truth, and no he did not physically father them.
I think you must have missed the reference scripture. It is called Satan's seed. Quite a difference in meaning. While fathering something can include many things in Hebrew culture, your seed always meant a direct link, usually through a physical bloodline.
I have read a few of your posts and I am sure you know the difference. Your post surprised me.
The Heart of man:Totally depraved or is there something good inside.
Posted : 3 Jan, 2011 09:34 PM
Twosparrows,
You said:
Please don't think I am being contentious, however questions do pop into my mind like: If God in election can distinguish between the seed of His and the seed of satan, then why all of this? ie: the world, Christ, the Gospel, etc...Why does He subject His creation to frustration so the sons of God are revealed?
I say:
They are all Satan's seed until they put off the old man (born again). I have no idea of the criteria God uses to call us to salvation. Since He knows all things, I can only assume He knows what He is doing. I do see the wisdom of using trials and tribulations to turn us to Him. We never seem to want to seek Him when everything is going good. (By we, I an referring to mankind prior to conversion)
We get caught up in scriptures like John 3:16. We think that proves that anyone can be saved, but that one verse has to fit with all those election and predestination scriptures in order to be understood. On our own, without God giving us a new heart of flesh, we will NEVER seek Him. So, God acts by drawing us to Christ. Does that make God evil? Of course not! None of us, not a single one, deserve salvation. So, if God decides to save some, for whatever reason, how is that unfair? So, yes, whosoever believeth. But without God's help, we are not capable of believing.
As for the Gospel, that is one of the ways God chose to draw His people, through the foolishness of preaching.
