Why is it that in the brief time I have put in searching through our rich church history I can not find anywhere tongues being described as the charismatics define it today? In every instance where it is even mentioned, and that is in very few places, it is defined as another language not known to the speaker, such as Spanish, French, German, etc.
It was not until 1909 some people in California started acting weird and speaking in strange babbling that the Pentecostal movement got started. Most of the time the wacky far out stuff we see today iWhy is it that in the brief time I have put in searching through our rich church history I can not find anywhere tongues being described as the charismatics define it today? In every instance where it is even mentioned, and that is in very few places, it is defined as another language not known to the speaker, such as Spanish, French, German, etc.
It was not until 1909 some people in California started acting weird and speaking in strange babbling that the Pentecostal movement got started. Most of the time the wacky far out stuff we see today is associated with the charismatic churches or preachers. Why do we not see this gift in our church history for 1800 years and now we have people who will vehemently fight a bitter fight for this belief?
Personally I do not take the definition of tongues describe by some here or by the charismatic churches. Remember speaking in tongues as a strange babbling is something that does happen in satanic worship. And the devil does disguise himself as an angel of light and is deceiving many. Oh but of course all those here on the forums are to spiritual for the devil to deceive so that can't be what I am suggesting here.
There are 5 sources speaking in tongues can come from
1. The Holy Spirit and I don't believe that is happening the way people describe it, every time I hear about it it sounds unbiblical anyway.
2. Demonic. My personal pick for what influences most people.
3. Showmanship or entertainment. This I have seen and heard and it made me laugh so I guess it was entertaining. But yet sad because of the deceived souls falling for it.
4. A lunatic. Some are just plan out of their mind or acting like they are.
5. Ignorance. People want so badly to be a part of something they think they need to do this to be accepted so the play it out.
I know this will start a fire storm and I am not going to argue this point. I have studied Acts 2 and know about the Holy Spirit and things that went on all through the book, I have done my research and am convinced of what the Holy Spirit in my studies has reveled to me on this subject. I want to ask if you are a person who thinks they speak in tongues try not wearing it on your sleeve as a badge here. It is not very pretty to those who think you are wrong or just plan weird.
Now this brings me to what I have always wondered. I hear all the time about essentials and non essentials to salvation. As long as we have the essentials right we can be wrong on the non essentials and still call each other brother. Really? Is that true? Is that biblical? How much can someone be wrong and still be right? Is there not but 1 truth? I mean hey I could be wrong on the tongues issue but that probably means I am wrong about a lot of other important doctrines as well if I am using the same hermeneutic principles else where as I used on my study of tongues. Or vise versa if I am right about tongues and I did use the proper hermeneutical principles to know this, then those that are wrong could be wrong on other important issues as well.
Like I have said before PJ describes a god I can not find in the bible. His constant attacks on the character and nature of the God I see and know from the Bible and against those who follow God are blasphemous at best and heretical at worst. Because of this I can not call PJ brother. He is my neighbor so I am to love him as such but embrace as brother I can not do with the limited information I know about him. His fruit is bad so I have to come to the conclusion he is a bad tree because bad fruit can not come from a good tree.
Ok all you tongue believers have at it! If there is one thorn that can get people bent out of shape is to call their tongue gift false or fake, it will get a fire storm started every time.
s associated with the charismatic churches or preachers. Why do we not see this gift in our church history for 1800 years and now we have people who will vehemently fight a bitter fight for this belief?
Personally I do not take the definition of tongues describe by some here or by the charismatic churches. Remember speaking in tongues as a strange babbling is something that does happen in satanic worship. And the devil does disguise himself as an angel of light and is deceiving many. Oh but of course all those here on the forums are to spiritual for the devil to deceive so that can't be what I am suggesting here.
There are 5 sources speaking in tongues can come from
1. The Holy Spirit and I don't believe that is happening the way people describe it, every time I hear about it it sounds unbiblical anyway.
2. Demonic. My personal pick for what influences most people.
3. Showmanship or entertainment. This I have seen and heard and it made me laugh so I guess it was entertaining. But yet sad because of the deceived souls falling for it.
4. A lunatic. Some are just plan out of their mind or acting like they are.
5. Ignorance. People want so badly to be a part of something they think they need to do this to be accepted so the play it out.
I know this will start a fire storm and I am not going to argue this point here. I have studied Acts 2 and know about the Holy Spirit and things that went on all through the book, I have done my research and am convinced of what the Holy Spirit in my studies has reveled to me on this subject. I want to ask if you are a person who thinks they speak in tongues try not wearing it proudly on your sleeve as a badge. It is not very pretty to those who think you are wrong or just plan weird.
Now this brings me to what I have always wondered. I hear all the time about essentials and non essentials to salvation. As long as we have the essentials right we can be wrong on the non essentials and still call each other brother. Really? Is that true? Is that biblical? How much can someone be wrong and still be right? Is there not but 1 truth? I mean hey I could be wrong on the tongues issue but that probably means I am wrong about a lot of other important doctrines as well if I am using the same hermeneutic principles else where as I used on my study of tongues. Or vise versa if I am right about tounges and I did use the proper hermeneutical principles to know this, then those that are wrong could be wrong on other important issues as well.
Like I have said before PJ describes a god I can not find in the bible. His constant attacks on the character and nature of the God I see and know from the Bible and against those who follow God are blasphemous at best and heretical at worst. Because of this I can not call PJ brother. He is my neighbor so I am to love him as such but embrace as brother I can not do with the limited information I know about him. His fruit is bad so I have to come to the conclusion he is a bad tree because bad fruit can not come from a good tree.
Ok all you tongue believers have at it! If there is one thorn that can get people bent out of shape is to call their tongue gift false or fake, it will get a fire storm started every time.
ET you sure assume a lot that you don't know. I agree with many of the answers here, tongues being a language like you have described and that has been what was understood by Christians for centuries I also believe the gifts still are given today by the Holy Spirit, no problem there either. But when a definition of something gets changed after 1800 yrs I am going to suspicious. And if a strange sound is coming out of someones body whether in private or in public and it can not be understood by anyone anywhere I am going to think that person is under demonic influences no matter how spiritual they think they are.
I have to respond to a few of your points Dennis.
point 5- God makes the rules and can change them as he see fit who are we to say what is so pal?????? get the message MR. ROW God makes the rules not you.If he wants to have people speaking in the babbling that we do that is God's bussiness and his call!!!!!!! Not yours!!!!!!
Mixing truth with a lie does not make a sentence true "pal"(LOL) that is a fallacy for argument. Yep God makes the rules but He never changes them because they were perfect to begin with. It is God's call and not mine but He gave us the Bible so people don't start making stuff up as they go and claim it is from God. That is why we can run everything through the Bible to see if it is true or not. And if someone claims they make strange babbling as a means of worship I will ask where that is found in the Bible. What I do find in the bible is when people make strange sounds it was because they had a demon in them.
point 7- Since God makes the rules it would be by the Holy Spirit, so I would not speak out against something like this if I were you,Mr. Row
Saying the same thing twice does not make it any more true the second time. Yes Spiritual gifts are of the Holy Spirit and I never disputed that, but when the action is not matching the prescription given in the Bible then the action can not be from the Holy Spirit. God does not change to entertain our wishes. If you truly have the gift of tongues given by the spirit you would not have gotten so bent out of shape. You are protecting something you even have doubts about. I never spoke out against biblical tongues only the stuff I have seen and been exposed to that looks and sounds demonic. When someone is making a strange sound that is not a language then that person scares me. And this is what is getting pass around as a spiritual gift and I say it may be from a spirit but it is not from the Holy Spirit.
If you say I am of the devil we can discuss this with CDFF administration, get the point pal. I am not pleased with your post.DENNIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A threat? Really? LOL!!! I never called you out by name pal. I never said Dennis is of the devil. You jumped forward as a volunteer. If you are making strange noises I would have my doubts that is for sure. PJ runs around here all the time claiming that peoples doctrines and understandings of scriptures are of the devil and no one has got as huffy and puffy as you have here. What's up Dennis? What is it that you really love and ready to go to war over?
Dennis I do not want a war with you or bad feeling so if you misunderstood what I was trying to say or took offense, I apologize for offending.
Correction Mr Row you have never hear me say everyone is of the devil, you will hear me say of course that Calvinist doctrine on every point they make is wrong, the word of God is the proof of all their error.
Just as your post here, how can you comment on any bible topic when you do not follow the instructions given in the word of God.
You neglect to see the difference in speaking in tongues verses the gift of tongues for one.
!st Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 � What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
Tells us the meaning of this scriptual context Mr Row.
Leon, it is not about disagreeing or agreeing.It is about mocking and insulting.The way it was written was very poor.
I have no problem with a disagreement here. But to say something is demonic or they are lunatics.That is going to get a response from somebody. You are free to disagree.
Leon and anybody else.:peace: PEACE I have read where calvinist are called heretics and so much more. Must we call everybody we disagree with heretics and other names??????? After awhile nobody takes such people serious.They get ignored.
Ella, thank you for the comment.I was only mad yesterday when I read it. Now I am only disgusted that someone would write this and start something.Yes, it was written very poorly by Mr.Row.Mr. Row had you said you just disagreed with it, I would not have said much. It was how you said it.
I do accept your apolegy Mr.Row.
Friends when I first got saved my family really rejected my salvation.
I had to pay for becoming a crazy religious fanatic.You see it is ok for them to cuss, swear, and do all kinds of ungodly things. Go to church and sing those songs.Go home and watch movies with sex in them. So, when I got saved I had to pay. yes, they did not want a tongue talker around at that time. My pay check was every 2 weeks. It was feed by good christian people. It was all about a deep resentment of what I brought with me. just my presence brought conviction.I was an outcast for 5 years.
Row, are you listening to what you have said? You say you cannot call PJ, your brother, but you can call him your neighbor. You're sounding like a true heart hypocrite...
Well, this statement is rather twisted isn't it? Since Jesus tells us to LOVE our neighbor as ...what?... we LOVE OURSLEVES. So does this mean you love PJ, as you do yourself?
God also ask a question, How can you say you LOVE GOD, when you HATE OR DO NOT CARE FOR YOUR BROTHER whom you see or communicate with everyday, yet you say you LOVE God whom you have never seen. And how can you not call PJ your BROTHER WHO ALSO BELIEVES IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST? PJ is in Christ, doesn't that make you his brother?
If PJ believes in the same Lord Jesus Christ as you SAY you do, aren't you not PJ's brother in Christ? Does not this mean you are his brother in Christ? If you're in Christ and PJ is in the same Christ, my Bible says there is fellowship one with another as brothers in Christ. So how can you NOT call him your brother?
Oh, I get it you don't love PJ regardless of his faults and lack of spiritual knowledge or undersatning in many things, as your brother in Christ ,enough to call him your brother, because he doesn't believe in your man made doctrines as you do. Which also means you can 't you call anyone your brother or sister who does not believe or diagree with you do in certain doctrine taught by man of God who have nothing to do with getting into heaven or hell? These doctrines have no hold on what Jesus took care of on the cross, not Calvin, or any other man who died and is still with bones in the grave.
Sound like high minded puffed up dissimulation(hypocrisy) to me...
Just because PJ, may not be able to articulate his thoughts as some of you who THINK you're masters in knowing Calvin's doctrine, and for the most part are off course in many things. Doesn't mean you have need to denounce him as a child of the same God who through Jesus Christ gave you the same free gift of salvation.
Row, Others get on PJ for many of his out of the loop comments, but not in the insolent tone you speak toward him. Doesn't sound as if you yourself are a brother or a good neighbor in Christ, not according to your speech.
Your speech sounds of malice. And we know that whatsoever a man speaks out of the mouth comes from the heart... so we know your christian heart, huh... because you are not displaying the fruit of Christ's Holy Spirit in character, Maybe God feels toward you, as you feel toward PJ, ever thought about that?...:excited::rolleyes:
BTW, There are anger management classes out there should you decode to take them for improvement of your conduct toward those who disagree with you.If you need help in making arrangment , I will assit you in get into these clases.
I mean, what is your important spiritual calling in spiritual matters in knowledge, and wisdom, and understanding of God's word more than others, that you should speak such things?
Row, your statement is the perfect example of what Jesus speaks about judging, because the very thing you are judging and calling a bad tree and bad fruit, you yourself are producing bad fruit from a angry tree. You say PJ is a bad tree or something to that effect. Well, according to what Romans Chapters 12-15 ,have to say how Christians are to treat others and weak christians, your furit appears to be eaten by bugs of your own anger, and your tree needs pruning back, in order to produce and bear good fruit representing Chrit and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.
Just because no one believes as you do in speaking in tongues, doesn't mean the person is not of God, and the manner inwhuich you correct a person sure isn't of what the scripture has to say either, nor is of God of my Bible or Christ..
If PJ or anyone is not correct according to scripture in their views and or thoguhts, pray for him/her, rebuke, reproof, correct, and instruct with scripture, and if they don't listen then do as Paul exhortas us to do, exercise Titus chapter 3... and keep it moving.
I am going to concede this argument for another day but I need to comment here to clear something up. How can I call someone a brother when the nature, character and attributes of God are being discussed PJ comes on and repeats over and over that the God we are praising is not his god. Even another person on this forum used this line directed at him and another:
I will leave you two whatever god it is you follow because we know it is not the one from the bible, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Have fun.
Over and over he claims his theology, his doctrine, his god, his Jesus is not the same one we discuss, that we all have doctrines of demons. So by his own words the obvious conclusion is, we are not brothers, we can't be if we are worshiping 2 different gods. Does a Mormon or Jehovah Witness worship the same Jesus you do? Can you call the ones who are in those cults brothers and sisters in Christ when they teach a different Jesus and a different God from the same Bible you use? How wrong can you be and still be right is my question? I will be the first to admit one of us is wrong because both us can not be right! ET except on a few things my view of God, theology and doctrines are actually in close line with your views. But you do assume a lot you don't know.
I have admitted I stepped out in a bad direction here and I have and will again apologize for that.
Anyway this is all I have to say here! I was wrong in my presentation and will try next time to articulate my thoughts in my post better.
Okay! The false teachings of tongues being required by Jesus. Could you find some more heresy while you are at it? What else? Do we need to sacrifice a virgin or two? LOL.
Go back to your falsehoods, w have no time for them.
Row,:hearts: apology accepted. I do understand where you're coming from, but we are taught to have compassion on those who are of the household of faith, and may not have the spiritual insights and/or be as spiritually mature as we make THINk we are.
I know PJ can get under your skin at times, sometime I feel like pulling out my hair, but I also undertsand he is growing and we must be patient with him, just as others who assisted and help us to come into the knowledgeof the word were with us.
And just as I made mention to others who had some problems with PJ, and how he expresses himself... no matter what, at least he is trying. We who claim to be stronger and claim we are more spiritually capable in knowledge, wisdom and understanding in the Word, we are exhorted show this in our conduct and behavior, and to have compassion toward those who lack in spiritually in certain areas. We must be apt to teach with PATIENCE AND MEEKNESS. of course, after you have clocked his blocker off:ROFL::boxing:
Row, I ain't mad atcha, I just want you to be the Christian I know God is calling you to be, and stop allowing your flesh to dictate your behavior and what you speak toward those you diagree with, over write your mouth... get angry but sin not... I don't think there is a person on this forum who hasn't gotten angry at PJ, and expressed their anger to him. I also know that PJ, has gotten angry with everyone as well, including me, and has said things that would have been offended many. But as a strong Christian, Jesus has already told us that offenses would come, therefore why would anyone still allow such to offend them, if you are who you say you are in Christ, and already know these things will happen?
Offenses, This is to be expected, and PJ has come a loooooooooong ways in his spiriual growth. PRAISE GOD! :applause::glow::angel::party:
As long as he does acknowledge that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior, PJ, is our brother in Christ... so go wash your face , take a deep breath, put a smile on your face, and continue posting those things of interest to you and others for good discussion .
We must receive PJ as our brother whether welike it or not, and if he has things all confused, what a great opportunity God has placed in our midst for witinessing to our brother.
Therefore, do you ignore such an opportunity for witnessing? Or leave it alone just because you don't like what he says, and/or the manner he expresses himself about God?
Always remember, Your witness is based on Christ , not PJ and his rambling:dancingp::glow::applause::applause::peace:
