The bible clearly teaches these concepts all throughout scripture.anyone who pretends it doesnt,or misinterperates these passages on purpose,is not being honest,or doesnt want to acknowledge All of gods teachings
The bible is clear that none of us deserve salvation except through the blood of Christ!
It is also clear that not everyone goes to heaven.
It is also clear that most wont go to heaven.
whats different about the few who find it.
Nothing!
The lord said"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"
so it is by grace alone we are saved,through faith,and not of works,so no man can boast!
there is nothing good in us that makes us merit the eternal kingdom.
(This article was given to the Associate Editor by the author nearly twenty years ago on the campus of Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis, Tennessee.)
These words suggest three distinct ideas--the objects, the Author, and the act of foreknowing. The first and third of these are especially debated. The second is clear. Yet the fact that God is the One Who did it proves that man did not do it. It could not, therefore, refer to some condition or act foreseen in the creature. No theory of the meaning of the other parts must be allowed to nullify the positiveness of this.
Some claim that "foreknow" means those He foreknew would repent and believe. Some, too, claim that this is general, not specific and individual. They say that He foreknew a nation or class, as the class that would repent and believe. The issue is: Does the word mean mere foresight or prescience?
Even a casual reader can see that the same "whom" that He foreknew, He predestinated, called, justified, and glorified. Stifler says, "This verse presents an argument by means of the recurring words 'whom' and 'them.' These are also links in the chain, forged in with it. 'Whom,' He did foreknow, 'them,' all of them, He did 'predestinate.' The next 'whom' takes up the same persons and carries them to the next stage, and so on to the end. The argument, when condensed, comes to this: that the very ones He foreknew, these, without the loss of one, He glorified." The chain of grace continues through its five links, and the iteration of the word "whom" shows that it affects the same persons in every particular phase of its work.
We may safely interpret the acts of eternity past by what we experience in time. The calling and justification are individual and personal; so will our glorification be. This shows that the foreknowing and the predestinating, two phases of election, are personal.
The word "foreknow" cannot mean mere foresight or prescience. To claim such is to face the inescapable dilemma: either limit the omniscience of God or teach the glorification of all men. The absurdity of universal salvation is evident. If our word, therefore, means mere prescience, God does not know all things and persons, for all He foreknew will be ultimately glorified. No truth is more assuredly taught in Scripture than that God knows all things--previously, intuitively, instantly, perfectly, universally. Abandon your view or accept one horn of your own dilemma.
To read "whom He did foreknow would repent and believe" is to commit two grievous sins. They are: reading into the passage what is wholly without warrant in the context; contradicting Pauline teaching that we are called "not according to our works but according to His Own purpose and grace" 2 Tim. 1:9.
We repeat: To condition foreknowledge on foreseen repentance and faith is to ground it on character and subvert the whole and chief contention of Romans. Shedd, "God's electing love is His compassion and not His complacent delight in spiritual excellence and holiness." Stifler, "What His prescience saw in all men was enmity and helplessness in sin because of a love of it." Plainly, He foresaw that none would repent and believe and graciously provided in "His purpose" (verse 28) for this. The following links in the chain of His purpose secure what man had not and could not produce, that is, repentance and faith. Had not the acts of predestination, calling and justification procured these to a numberless multitude, all men would still be seen as inpenitent and unbelieving.
We submit a safe principle of interpretation. If the obvious meaning of a word will not make sense, seek another meaning from passages using the same word. "Foreknow" as prescience falls down here; nothing is plainer to a candid mind. Romans 11:2 uses the same word, "God hath not cast away His people Whom He foreknew." But an omniscient God knows beforehand all nations. He knew Israel as the nation which He had loved and upon which He had lavished His love and care. Deuteronomy 7:7-8, "Jehovah did not set His love upon you nor choose you because ye were more in number than any people, for ye were the fewest of all people; but because Jehovah loved you and because He would keep the oath which He had sworn unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt." Nothing is plainer than that nothing foreseen in them led Him to choose but His sovereign love. Such is the meaning of "foreknow" in our text.
It means the same as Exodus 2:25, "And God looked upon the children of Israel and God had respect unto them (margin, knew them)." The reason for God's lovingly foreknowing is found in Himself alone, not at all in the one foreknown.
"Foreknow" means the same as "know" in Psalm 1:6. "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish." No one would claim that there is a blank place in the mind of God in not foreseeing the way of the wicked. He knows beforehand all things good and bad. He knows the way of the righteous in the sense of caring for and setting His affection upon their way. All that they do concerns Him. Therefore, God foreknew some in the sense of making them objects of His love and concern and will finally bring the same number to salvation in time through repentance and faith and to glory in the future.
"Foreknow" and "know" in the New Testament passages given below are manifest Hebraisms. That is, the mind of Paul was influenced in this use of "foreknow" by the Hebrew and Septuagint meaning of "know." "Know" often in the Old Testament means "to care for, to regard favorably, to manifest concern in." Turn to these and read them. Psalm 1:6; 144:3; Genesis 4:1; Jeremiah 1:5; Hosea 13:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew 7:23; 1 Corinthians 8:3; Galatians 4:5; 2 Timothy 2:19.
We conclude our study by quoting from fourteen scholars who tell us what "foreknow" means in Romans 8:29.
Brown in Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown, "His peculiar, gracious, complacency in them."
Godet, "Those on whom His eyes fixed from all eternity with love; whom He eternally contemplated and discerned as His." Pareus, "To love, to care for."
Shedd, "To fix the eye upon � with the additional notion of a benignant and kindly feeling toward the object." Charles Hodge, "The fixing the mind upon."
Stifler, "Took note of them." Forrester, it "carries with it the idea of fellowship or approval."
Cremer, "To unite oneself before with some one." Hovey, "An approbation or choice from beforehand."
MacKenzie in The Westminster New Testament, "To regard favorably." W. H. Griffith Thomas, "God fixed His regard on them, noted them with favor."
Haldane, "Before loved or acknowledged." Garvie, "Looked favorably on and marked out for blessing."
Denney in The Expositor's Greek Testament, "Foreknow has the pregnant sense that 'I know' often has in Scripture; e. g., in Psalm 1:6; Amos 3:2; hence we may render, 'those of whom God took knowledge from eternity.'"
Note several translations and one extra commentary. I place the Williams translation last because I think it most nearly catches the Greek idea.
"Those whom He chose from the first" (Beck). "For those whom He had marked out from the first" (Goodspeed).
"For He decreed of old" (Moffatt). "Foredecision--no more foreknowledge of what they would do, but rather what He would do for them" (Moule).
"Because those whom He gave His first recognition" (New World). "For whom He fore-approved" (Rotherham). "For those whom God chose from the first" (Twentieth Century New Testament).
"Those whom God had already chosen" (Today's English Version). "For those He had in view" (Schonfield). "For those on whom He set His heart beforehand" (Williams).
If you don't believe Paul, then you might as well tear one third of the new testament out of your bible.
Oh, and Luke was his student so that means you have to tear out more.
Now, since Luke agreed with the other Gospels, you have to throw that out as well.
Now there is no new testament. Is that what you want? Do you not know that ALL scripture is inspired by God? You have to stop picking and choosing which parts of the bible you believe. You either believe God or you do not. It seems to be the latter. I will pray that God calls you so you can understand.
It is my Belief that Yall are Predestaned ta Argue bout Predestination....You Gents crack me Up....:ROFL:...Yall hava a great day an God bless Yall...xo
Trucker thank you for that comment on those who believe in the claim it believe it theory.When first got saved I did get taught that.I Know it is not so anymore. I was pushed into taking myself off some medication I was taking and a crisis occured.As I am on Anti-seizure meds. I no longer beieve everything I am told I search it out. Yes, I was introduced into all that you mentioned trucker.
Elijah had the Syrian general wash inthe Jordan river 7 times.
Sometimes it is Gods choice not to heal so we can use our disablity to grorify him.
Now about our topic, question Steve budy- Romans 8:30.
When you used thatdid you meanthat Jesus Christ was predested to die for our sins or did you use tha for something else??????
To much has been written for me to ask about it all.
John Hendryx Responds to Visitor Struggling with Free Will Vs. Free Grace
visitor: I am struggling with the Calvinism vs. Free Will debate. Why, when one "flees to Christ" as you say is there not the possibility of NOT fleeing to Christ. Is there not a choice involved here? Fleeing to Christ is not a work is it? Turning to Christ is not a work is it? Why is choosing to believe in Christ considered a work by so many Calvinists? When I believed in Christ I gave Him ALL the glory as I then understood that NOTHING I can do would satisfy God. ONLY what Christ did saves me! But I must choose to believe, trust, follow, Flee to Him! Where am I going wrong?
response: Thanks for writing with your excellent question. This hits directly at the crux of the matter. Salvation by grace alone in Christ alone was the very issue of the Reformation that Martin Luther battled the most with Erasmus and the Roman Catholic Church in the Sixteenth Century.
What is this issue of the bondage of the will all about? It points to what the Bible says is the real condition of the natural man. If we set aside church traditions for a moment go through what the Bible asserts about fallen man it may be surprising to you. First we need to establish whether or not man has a free will, according to Scripture. But how do we do this?
The Text not only says that the natural man is a sinner, but that he does not have the Spirit of God. He is not born of the Spirit. Agreed? Jesus says, Flesh gives birth to flesh and the Spirit gives birth to spirit (John 3:3,6) and "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail.�" (John 6:63) & Paul says that �the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14). We do not receive things we think are foolish and that we do not understand. The natural man does not have the mind of Christ so even if someone preaches to him until he is blue in the face, he will not respond to the gospel unless God grants belief and repentance (see John 6:65 & 2 Tim 2:25, Eph 2:8). The Bible indeed declares that no one can believe without a preacher but this is not enough by itself �. the seed of the gospel that is cast forth from the preacher must be germinated, so to speak, by the Holy Spirit, if a person is to come to Christ. Paul explains how he knows some were chosen of God. He says, �For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.� (1 Thess 1:4, 5) This is clear evidence the Spirit is necessary, not optional for a person to be made alive so he may come to Christ..without which man would remain naturally dead to the things of Christ.
The Holy Spirit is critical for salvation, so critical that without Him, no one would ever willingly submit to the humbling terms of the gospel, not one would come to Jesus Christ. Agreed? Or do you believe the Scripture teaches that a man can come to faith apart from the Holy Spirit? All true Christians affirm the necessity of the Holy Spirit. So from this very fact, we have established that man has no free will. Again, what is meant when we say no free will? We are not speaking of someone coercing us from the outside. No. It means that we are in bondage to a corruption of nature, out of which we cannot free ourselves BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT and hate God by nature (John 3:19). We cannot draw from our own resources to even lift a finger toward our own salvation. Jesus says in the Gospel of John to the Jews that only the Son can set them free, but they are now children of the Devil the father of lies, who lies because it is in his nature. In Romans 6 it reads that natural men are slaves to sin, and elsewhere that that Satan has taken men captive to do his will. If Christ is to set us free then it means we were not free and in bondage.
So it is important to ask, can a person, without the intervention of the Holy Spirit, believe the gospel? Does the natural person have the capacity to understand spiritual things? According to the above passages the answer is clearly no. 'No one says �Jesus is Lord� apart from the Holy Spirit.' So the unbeliever is void of the Spirit which is another way of saying that he has no free will. He may make voluntary choices but they are choices of necessity. In other words, he necessarily chooses sin, apart from grace. Nothing he does springs from a heart that loves God. His condition, if left to himself, is hopeless. God must intervene to illumine his mind, open blind eyes, unplug deaf ears, disarm his natural hostility, change our disposition and turn our heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
So if we can agree that a man will not come to Christ apart from the Holy Spirit, then we also agree and have established that the natural man has no free will. God must act if we are to do anything toward our redemption (See John 1:13).
Now that we have established this, lets take the other part of your great question.
>>>>Why, when one "flees to Christ" as you say is there not the possibility of NOT fleeing to Christ. Is there not a choice involved here? Fleeing to Christ is not a work is it? Turning to Christ is not a work is it? Why is choosing to believe in Christ considered a work by so many Calvinists?
Fleeing to Christ only becomes a work when we think we did this apart from God�s grace. If faith is a product of our unregenerate human nature then we could boast like this:
"Thank you Lord I am not like other men who do not have faith. When you granted grace to all men, others did not make use of it, BUT I DID."
Apart from grace, what makes them to differ from other men then was their native ability to have faith. But the Scripture says the grace of God makes us differ from others, not something we had by nature that our neighbor did not. When we arrive in God's presence we will not say, "Thank you God for everything, except my faith ... I am here because I had the wisdom to believe." No, we will say thank you Lord for your mercy that I even had the faith to believe. You deserve all the glory as I would have never come on my own.
Even when you think that the assistance of grace depends on your own humility and that it was not grace itself that made you humble then you no longer believe in 'grace alone' but that you came to Christ due to your own great humility. You are establishing a religion of grace PLUS your merit or wisdom or virtue, not Jesus alone. But when we recognize our faith in Christ is due to the fact that God has changed our heart so that we may see and understand his beauty and excellence, then we give all glory to God for all our salvation. Can you thank God for your faith? or is this the one thing that you can boast of contributing to the price of your salvation?
If all men have equal grace, as you seem to be suggesting, an important question to ask is why does one man believe the gospel and not another? Is one smarter, or have more natural sensitivity than others to spiritual things? Jesus says, My sheep hear my voice but some �do not believe BECAUSE [they] are not his sheep.� He does not say they are not his sheep because they do not believe (See John 10). So he reveals that the nature of the person determines the choice they will make. An unregenerate man will not exercise faith in a holy God. Jesus says a bad tree does not bear good fruit � but MAKE the tree good and its fruit will be good. �. The seed of the gospel which falls on our soil � Is this soil good by NATURE or by grace? God must first plow up the fallow ground of our hearts. To this Jesus says, "...every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up." - Matt 15:13. That is why Jeremiah says that he will turn our heart of stone to a heart of flesh THAT we might obey. No one believes or obeys while his heart is still stone. A blind man cannot see unless given new eyes. Shining a light into a blind man's eyes will not help him see. Nor will people respond to the word of God apart form the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
The Scripture testifies that, "It is not the man who wills or runs but God who has mercy (Rom 9:16) John 1:13 says it is not the will of man that causes us to believe but the new birth.
If God extends His grace to all men, then why do some reject him? Is it grace that makes men to differ from one another, not some good will God see in us.
Some important verses to contemplate are:
Romans 8:30 which says, �those who were called were justified� According to this verse, I ask you, how many of those God called were justified? The answer to this question is why no one resists God�s call.
And Jesus himself said, �ALL that the Father gives to me WILL come to me��(John 6:37) Not some, Jesus says, but ALL that God the Father gives the SON will believe on him. We believe that grace is invincible because this is what the Bible teaches � and without which no man would willingly come. When your child runs out in the street and a car is coming, do you wait to see what he will do with his free will, or do you run to scoop him out of danger. Love doesn't just wring hands and hope but it gets the job done and, in God's case saves the ones He came for. (See John 6:39). Jesus says he will lose NONE OF ALL THAT THE FATHER HAS GIVEN HIM - John 6:39
Both Arminians and Calvinists will tell you they believe in Predestination.
You really don't have much choice, because there are too many verses that say this.
But the difference is that Calvinists believe that we are predestined because GOD chose His own people.
Arminians will tell you that "God looked into the future and saw who would have faith, and that is why he wrote their names in the book of life before the world was made."
The problem is Romans 9 contradicts this idea, and NOWHERE does the Bible say that "God looked in to the future and saw who would have faith..."
That idea puts MAN in charge of saving Himself.
God is the one who chooses, and when God chooses to save someone, that person WILL believe.........
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
