I know its a lot of reading,but read this passage for me and then tell me what you think please.
�AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.� 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God�s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, �THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.� 13 Just as it is written, �JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.�
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, �I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.� 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, �FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.� 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, �Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?� 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, �Why did you make me like this,� will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Romans chapter 9, is about God's righteousness His promise, His calling, His sovereign WILL and Power, his election, and His love. Romans 9, is also about man's(Jews) rebellion and the attitude and heart of man's stubbornness to do his own thing outside of God's plans. Pride arrogance, rebellion, and ignorance were the problems then and now with all who will not submit to God's call for salvation in obedience.
I found Matthew Henry's commentary on this chapter its not very long, read how he approaches this.
Matthew Henry Concise Commentary
Chapter 9
The apostle's concern that his countrymen were strangers to the gospel. (1-5) The promises are made good to the spiritual seed of Abraham. (6-13) Answers to objections against God's sovereign conduct, in exercising mercy and justice. (14-24) This sovereignty is in God's dealing both with Jews and Gentiles. (25-29) The falling short of the Jews is owing to their seeking justification, not by faith, but by the works of the law. (30-33)
Verses 1-5: Being about to discuss the rejection of the Jews and the calling of the Gentiles, and to show that the whole agrees with the sovereign electing love of God, the apostle expresses strongly his affection for his people. He solemnly appeals to Christ; and his conscience, enlightened and directed by the Holy Spirit, bore witness to his sincerity. He would submit to be treated as "accursed," to be disgraced, crucified; and even for a time be in the deepest horror and distress; if he could rescue his nation from the destruction about to come upon them for their obstinate unbelief. To be insensible to the eternal condition of our fellow-creatures, is contrary both to the love required by the law, and the mercy of the gospel. They had long been professed worshippers of Jehovah. The law, and the national covenant which was grounded thereon, belonged to them. The temple worship was typical of salvation by the Messiah, and the means of communion with God. All the promises concerning Christ and his salvation were given to them. He is not only over all, as Mediator, but he is God blessed for ever.
Verses 6-13: The rejection of the Jews by the gospel dispensation, did not break God's promise to the patriarchs. The promises and threatenings shall be fulfilled. Grace does not run in the blood; nor are saving benefits always found with outward church privileges. Not only some of Abraham's seed were chosen, and others not, but God therein wrought according to the counsel of his own will. God foresaw both Esau and Jacob as born in sin, by nature children of wrath even as others. If left to themselves they would have continued in sin through life; but for wise and holy reasons, not made known to us, he purposed to change Jacob's heart, and to leave Esau to his perverseness. This instance of Esau and Jacob throws light upon the Divine conduct to the fallen race of man. The whole Scripture shows the difference between the professed Christian and the real believer. Outward privileges are bestowed on many who are not the children of God. There is, however, full encouragement to diligent use of the means of grace which God has appointed.
Verses 14-24: Whatever God does, must be just. Wherein the holy, happy people of God differ from others, God's grace alone makes them differ. In this preventing, effectual, distinguishing grace, he acts as a benefactor, whose grace is his own. None have deserved it; so that those who are saved, must thank God only; and those who perish, must blame themselves only, . God is bound no further than he has been pleased to bind himself by his own covenant and promise, which is his revealed will. And this is, that he will receive, and not cast out, those that come to Christ; but the drawing of souls in order to that coming, is an anticipating, distinguishing favour to whom he will. Why does he yet find fault? This is not an objection to be made by the creature against his Creator, by man against God. The truth, as it is in Jesus, abases man as nothing, as less than nothing, and advances God as sovereign Lord of all. Who art thou that art so foolish, so feeble, so unable to judge the Divine counsels? It becomes us to submit to him, not to reply against him. Would not men allow the infinite God the same sovereign right to manage the affairs of the creation, as the potter exercises in disposing of his clay, when of the same lump he makes one vessel to a more honourable, and one to a meaner use? God could do no wrong, however it might appear to men. God will make it appear that he hates sin. Also, he formed vessels filled with mercy. Sanctification is the preparation of the soul for glory. This is God's work. Sinners fit themselves for hell, but it is God who prepares saints for heaven; and all whom God designs for heaven hereafter, he fits for heaven now. Would we know who these vessels of mercy are? Those whom God has called; and these not of the Jews only, but of the Gentiles. Surely there can be no unrighteousness in any of these Divine dispensations. Nor in God's exercising long-suffering, patience, and forbearance towards sinners under increasing guilt, before he brings utter destruction upon them. The fault is in the hardened sinner himself. As to all who love and fear God, however such truths appear beyond their reason to fathom, yet they should keep silence before him. It is the Lord alone who made us to differ; we should adore his pardoning mercy and new-creating grace, and give diligence to make our calling and election sure.
Verses 25-29: The rejecting of the Jews, and the taking in the Gentiles, were foretold in the Old Testament. It tends very much to the clearing of a truth, to observe how the Scripture is fulfilled in it. It is a wonder of Divine power and mercy that there are any saved: for even those left to be a seed, if God had dealt with them according to their sins, had perished with the rest. This great truth this Scripture teaches us. Even among the vast number of professing Christians it is to be feared that only a remnant will be saved.
Verses 30-33: The Gentiles knew not their guilt and misery, therefore were not careful to procure a remedy. Yet they attained to righteousness by faith. Not by becoming proselytes to the Jewish religion, and submitting to the ceremonial law; but by embracing Christ, and believing in him, and submitting to the gospel. The Jews talked much of justification and holiness, and seemed very ambitious to be the favourites of God. They sought, but not in the right way, not in the humbling way, not in the appointed way. Not by faith, not by embracing Christ, depending upon Christ, and submitting to the gospel. They expected justification by observing the precepts and ceremonies of the law of Moses. The unbelieving Jews had a fair offer of righteousness, life, and salvation, made them upon gospel terms, which they did not like, and would not accept. Have we sought to know how we may be justified before God, seeking that blessing in the way here pointed out, by faith in Christ, as the Lord our Righteousness? Then we shall not be ashamed in that awful day, when all refuges of lies shall be swept away, and the Divine wrath shall overflow every hiding-place but that which God hath prepared in his own Son.
John: When you ask me "why?" about God, you�ve taken me out of my zone. God does what He does because He chooses to do it. And, He is not subject to my evaluation.
How God does things is revealed in scripture. The means by which a sinner can be saved is revealed in scripture. Why God chooses to do what He does, puts me in the same category as Job was in. What happened in Job�s life was inexplicable, because he didn�t know God and Satan had this conversation, and, God was going to prove to Satan that you couldn�t break saving faith. Satan was going to try to prove to God that he could break a man�s saving faith, he could break Job�s faith. And, so God said, "Have at him." Job didn�t have a clue what was going on. His friends didn�t have a clue, and they kept accusing Job of being evil and having secret sin and that this was their little paradigm. This is all going bad because you�re a bad person, and where are you hiding it, and Job�s looking around saying look, it�s not there. My heart is right before God and God had even said that he was the most righteous man on the earth. But, then, finally, Job says to God, you know, what�s going on? And, he starts to cry out to God, and God answers him like this: �Where were you when I made the world? Where were you when I put the stars in the sky? Well, who do you think you are? You�re asking me what I do what I do? You�re not a part of the plan, except in the way that I make you a part of it. You�re not a part of the discussion about what�s going to happen.� And, He never tells him why it all happened, never. Never tells him. So, I just say, look, when you ask me questions about why God does what He does, why does He allow evil, the problem with theodicy, why does He choose whom He chooses, why does He pass by whom He passes by, why does He have mercy on whom He will have mercy? "Why" questions are all bound up in His eternal will, and I can�t answer those questions.
Paul: I know. I knew you were going to answer that question that way, but people ask it all the time. Why does God pass over some? Really, the question we ought to be asking, the more difficult question, is why does God elect anyone, right? Why does God show mercy at all?
John: And, you could also ask the question, yes, why did God bother to save any of us? And, you can also ask the question, why should I be penalized for something that Adam and Eve did? That might not seem to my fallen mind like, you know, the fair thing to do, but that isn�t for me to make that judgment. I can also ask the question, why does God hold every single sinner on the planet responsible for what He does with divine truth? Why? If they can�t do anything about it does He hold them responsible? Well, the simple answer is they are told to do something about it which they don�t do. I don�t understand how that all works. But, I don�t think God is sending people to hell after having held them accountable for what they did with His truth, unless there�s real culpability there, unless there is genuine gospel opportunity there. So, I can never know. Maybe, I�ll even never know in heaven. Because my mind, even there, will still be a glorified human mind and not an infinite mind. All of that, but at this point, God is God. And, you could ask the same question about anything. Why did He make the world the way He made it? Why did He make trees the way He made trees? Why did He make water the way He made water? You know, I mean, why did He do anything He did? It�s up to Him to determine that.
This is an excerpt from a question and answer session with John Mcaurther.....I agree with it completely
ARe we not grateful the lord is not as some would say, to say he would pass over some, becuase of a man willing the lord to change his mind on the price he had made for all of mankind.
No the one true God is not willing THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, SO IN HIS WORDS MEN THAT DO NOT AGREE WITH ACCORDING TO HIS WORD ARE LIARS.
Paul: I know. I knew you were going to answer that question that way, but people ask it all the time. Why does God pass over some? Really, the question we ought to be asking, the more difficult question, is why does God elect anyone, right? Why does God show mercy at all?
John: And, you could also ask the question, yes, why did God bother to save any of us?
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I think Johnny needs to study the character of God. A person that understands God's character would have trouble saying "I can't answer that" for very long. I believe God has given us truth to understand, He would not pass over the answer to such a huge point in His character and leave us wondering what kind of God He is. "God not saving some sinners so He can punish them" is a huge character flaw, and is pretty deep in it's revealing of God's character. You can bring up the "we have fallen minds" thing if you want, but then it calls everything we learn into question. If we don't have the mental capacity to discern the character of God then there is no point in even trying to interpret any scripture, because that IS the whole point of reading scripture...to understand God's character. When we are seeking God...God empowers our mind to discern all truth.
John 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3And these things will they do unto you, because *they have not known the Father, nor me*. 4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. 5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
I think trying to judge Gods reasons for doing anything by our standards is just pointless.
just trying to grasp an all-powerful being that created the universe,and existed even before that,as a matter of fact,infinitely,is a bit presumptuous.
I read one of your posts that said,the God I was describing was "self Serving"
Like I said,Time and again,the bible says that everything created....Me ,you,fish,birds,jupiter,mars,....universes beyond ours.....even lucifer.......EVERYTHING WAS CREATED,in one way or another.....FOR HIS GLORY!
How that all plays out,I think,Is not knowable,that is what he was telling JOB.
Self serving would be a bad term when applied to sinful,fallen man,or any CREATED being,including Lucifer
But applied to an infinite,timeless,perfectly just,perfectly holy GOD....Self serving might be,and apparently is,ok
its this concept of "fair" that so many people have trouble grasping
is it "fair"that a baby is born with congenital illness
or in a third world country under the thumb of an oppressive tyranical leader?
Or that some people are blessed with,talent,money,health.....ect. While others are not.
what if God had made you a fish?would you complain that you were not created a man?
maybe I would have wanted to be an Angel.
No we are what we are and he is what he is!
again we are grasping at to much power when we try to judge God
maybe the only way God could make his point to a redeemed race was to have an infinite example of what it would be like to live Apart from God for eternity
because this is exactly what lucifer wanted,to be as powerful as God,yet set apart in his own kingdom
The reason I trust the Lord is because he paid the incredible price of a murderous torterous execution,by his own creation to pay for his property....an undeservedly redeemed people.
Mark if you would take the time and READ Romans chapter 9, there is no way you could possibly deny what it says about God sovereign will to choose and pick as He pleases. Its the same as when you go adopt a pet or a child, its your choice which pet or child you pick, and the pet nor the child has a choice.
God has chosen ALL the world to be saved, and only those who will not reject his salvation plan will be saved. Behold He stands at the door knocking on every person's heart to COME! But only a few will come and these are they who will be chosen. Its all Very simple...BTW, Did you read matthew Henry's commentary I posted... I betcha you didn't, you just SKIMMED over it. LOL...
I think the problem is no one is READING as they should, but are skimming through a few verses, including comments on this board and you're not getting the full message of what the Bible is saying about God and who He is and His power. Nor are you getting the points others are making in their comments.There are examples within Romans 9, of how God made His choices and how it all works together for His glory and the good f those He has chosen to do His perfect will and fulfill His purposes..
He has not will for no one to be lost, this is why He came to earth and Jesus died on the cross. It is up to those who receive this message to have faith and believe. But He does know those who will receive the free gift of salvation and those who will not receive Jesus Christ because of their OWN rebellion, stiffneckedness, pride, arrognace, and stubbornness. And God will allow such to happen, this proves man does not have free will but free choice. God is a gentleman and if you would liketo be like burgerking, He will let you have it your way.
The Jews rejected Jesus, but because God made a promise He will fulfill His promise to everyone who will come and receive the invitation. Not all the Jews during Paul's time or even today have rejected the called to salvation through Jesus Christ, this is why there is and will be a remanent of Jews and Gentiles saved, and the promise will be fulfilled.he chose the Jews because Jesus is a Jew, had he been another race, God would have chosen his people from his race, it just happened Jesus was a Jew.
PLEASE READ ROMANS CHAPTERS 9 & 10, and the Holy Sprit will open your eyes to understand
To call people you disagree with all the time liars is more than just rude.
I am going to touch on a few undebatable facts here.
When Luther and Calvin did their thing where was the world at that time?
The bible was not being printed until these guys got it started.Most people did not know how to read or write.The Catholic church was currupt at that time.They said you had to but your salvation at that time.God used Luther and Calvin to get the plan moving.They started it others continued it.Bibles were printed and people were taught to read and write.We were coming out of the Dark Ages. These men were great me of God who like us had flaws. Also, God for his own reasons only moves so far with each generation.
These men concentrated on salvation.Just the basics.
Should we attack Lutherns because they just teach the basics? Surely Not!!!!
Should we attack Calvin because we disagree with some of his teachings? Surely Not!!!!
Because like us these men are not perfect. I have grown tired of the name calling.Dennis
If you wanna read chapter nine you need to read chapter ten it is very clear, and somehow some believe there is only going to be a small number saved, God will not be out done by Satan.
Well ET...I see what you're saying, and I see what the bible says...and you're right, God does "kind of" choose to let some people "stop listening". I'm not sure it works exactly in the order some say it does though...I think God only "gives up" on someone when they stop listening to him(even though He knows they will...yeah, it's complicated)...like the Pharisees in Jesus's day. Those were vessels for destruction. They had their misconstrued view of God and they did not want anything but a conqueror. So God ceased to show them mercy and let them murder Him, but He still showed them the truth. They had every chance to turn away, and I do believe it was God's "will" that they should turn away, He just knew they wouldn't. Everything we do is in God's will...but I don't think God forces us at any point, He just removes His mercy when He knows we'll stop listening and lets us do what we want. God didn't cause the pharisees to kill Him, but He didn't stop them from doing what they wanted. I believe God works through our will in His will. I believe we have free will...God just already knows what we'll choose do with it.
And Manny...did Jesus die for His own glory, or did He die because of His love for sinners and then by being victorious He acquired glory? "For God wanted glory so much, that He sent His only son"? Nope. Everything He does brings Him glory...but that's not why He does stuff. I don't believe that is God's character. And we can't blame God because we're not rich, or because we were born with a disease...because it is not God's fault. Everything that has happened on this planet is our fault. We have disease because we, our parents, our parent's parents, etc wanted to sin. It's all because of sin, and God is giving us a way to live through it and get out of it. God is blameless. We weren't willing to follow Him, and stay in His protection.
Anyway....Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Study Jesus's character and you'll have all the answers you need.
But now, thus says the Lord, your creator, O Jacob, and He who formed you, O Israel, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine! When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place. Since you are precious in My sight, since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life. Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth, everyone who is called by My name, and whom I have created for MY GLORY, whom I have formed even whom I have made" (NASB).
Or these
God put [Christ] forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:25-26)
Your sins are forgiven for his name�s sake. (1 John 2:12)
or
Isaiah 48:9-11 (ESV)
"For my name's sake I defer my anger,for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. [10] Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. [11] For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."
"he predestined us for adoption through Jesus CHrist...to the priase of his glorious grace." Eph 1:5-6
Romans 11:33 - 12:1 (KJV) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
It seems to me that all things were created by him, through him, and for him...not us. Would this be for his glory? I think so.
Did God need to create us to "complete" him. I do not think so. God wants us to know him and his grace as well as all other aspects of his "glory" or nature.
