Thread: Why are you thankful for the Doctrines of Grace?
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Why are you thankful for the Doctrines of Grace?
Posted : 25 Apr, 2010 01:29 PM
For those Christians who believe that God is sovereign over everything in the universe, INCLUDING our salvation, I was wondering if you could post some comments and say why you are thankful for God saving you, and what the Doctrines of Grace,
(the five points nicknamed Calvinism) mean to you.
For those of you modern American Christians who believe that salvation is synergistic, meaning it takes God and your decision, this is a quote about Christians who believe in monergistic salvation, in other words God alone saves His people.
Here is an anonymous quote to start you off on:
"Therefore, in all synergistic theologies, God's love for people is always conditional. In other words, in synergism, a condition must be met by persons for God's love to kick in or take effect, so to speak. Particular Redemption Vs. Potential Redemption are, therefore, perhaps the most succinct ways to describe the realities of the theologies ... See Moreheld. Particular redemption is like a parents love for his children. When he sees his child run into the street, he does not merely call to him hoping for a response. He runs out into the street, rather, to make certain his child does not get run over. True love gets the job done. "
well, yes, but then you refute what you just said below!
-----But...I do believe it's God's sovereign will to let us operate in our free will....because that's what He created us to do.
James replies:
Mark you have two choices.
1. the one you clearly are taking at the moment which is:
"Well, God just looked into the future and saw YOU would have faith, so that is why he "chose" you.
That is arminian.
2 God, for reasons we don't know why, but NOT because of anything you would do, (read Romans 9) CHOSE people FOR HIS OWN REASONS.
That is point 2 of the Doctrines of Grace.
-----Ok...nice of you to divide beliefs into 2 camps, but I disagree. I will believe whatever God shows me is truth from the bible.
And mark, you said you don't believe God forces things on us.
God forced you to be a man, forced you to live on Earth, forced you to have your eye color, your personality, etc, etc.
----All before my will existed. He "forced" Adam to be a man too...before sin. I don't think "forced" would be the right term for a loving God that creates life. I got my eye color from my parents. My genetic build. God planned it? Yes. Forced it? Maybe way back at Adam and Eve....or Noah...but not now. And my personality and character are formed though life. Babies don't have a personality. Planned? Yes. Forced? Don't think so.
But here is the point on this. God takes a TOTALLY spiritually DEAD person and MAKES them COME ALIVE, and gives them a new nature. I have said this to you before, and I will say it again.
When God gives a person a NEW nature, they NATURALLY have NEW DESIRES. So no one is Forced against their will, they just have a NEW WILL.
----But I"m pretty sure you believe that they had no choice in serving God, and they have no choice to leave. It's still not the will God made us with. It's just God pushing the "good" button on His robot.
Mark continues:
I believe we have a choice AFTER God makes the first step and "speaks the truth" and plants the seed/convicts us through one of His many channels of influence(Preaching, His word, His law, His sacrifice, the witness of His followers, etc.), even though He knows what we will choose. I just think there's too much in the bible that says God tries to convict everyone, He scatters His seed everywhere. He wants us to "hear" and "believe". He says His will is that none should perish..
James replies:
None of HIS chosen people should perish....
----Re-translation of the bible according to your own interpretation. I looked those verses up in the greek, and the definition that says its literally "the whole world" comes before the one you're using. So why did you pick that definition? There are a lot more verses that say "the whole world", "all men everywhere", "repent and be baptized, every one of you", etc. But you're allowed to interpret it according to your beliefs....just not anybody else.
Mark continues:
.and I can see the point that God knows who will choose not to serve Him, but I don't think you know...or anyone else...and there are some, maybe not you...but some in in your belief system, that seem to claim they do know.
James replies:
No one can look at any other non Christian and say:
"that person will never accept Christ".
God saves who He will save, and we never know who that is.
We have guy in my little church, who got saved at 67 years old!
God sometimes saves the most wicked sinners, and sometimes even famous people.
We never know who, and that is why we are told to preach the gospel to the whole world.
---Oh then that explains why you guys are so nice to people...you don't know who could be converted to your beliefs! It all makes sense now, nice witness!
Mark continues:
I believe only God knows. You also say that a person that has accepted Christ cannot fall, and I see your point in that a person that God knows is truly saved will not fall....but you also claim that you are such a person.
James replies:
well, if I say I am a Christian, because I have repented and I am trusting in Christ ALONE, and I have an inward desire to live a holy life, AND, I believe that the Bible teaches that a true Christian will persevere to the end, then yes, you got me.
---So you believe you're one of the true Christians. Ok. I thought that was supposed to be that cult..you know...uh...Adventists...that believe they're the true Christians?
mark continues:
I believe only God knows, we can only hope.
James replies:
I would disagree on that point mark.
And remember I posted on the SDA church saying that you were not really forgiven until judgement day.
That is NOT what protestant Christians believe.
----Yeah, that's not what Adventists believe either. But you obviously know better than me. You've read all the hate-Adventists sites. Valid sources, every one of them.
In Romans 5:1 after teaching at length on HOW a person is made right with God, Paul says:
"Therefore having been justified by faith"
That is past tense Mark. God WANTS you to KNOW that you ARE saved, and that YOU Do belong to Him.
----Doesn't mean He won't cut you off the vine if you turn into an unfaithful servant that buries their gift or their mercy in the ground.
You are saying that no Christian can ever be assured that they are saved, and that is a sad way for a Christian to go through life!
---I'm saying we can have that blessed hope, if we're honestly trying to follow God. But to say you know you're saved? You can't see the future. How do you know you aren't one of those Christians to whom Jesus says "I never knew you"? The race isn't over. You don't know if you've laid hold of the prize.
Mark continues:
I believe we all have a choice. Even God. He can choose who to influence. We can choose who to listen to.
James replies:
Yeah, that is the opposite of what the bible says.
Jesus did not have a choice as to WHO would be saved, but had to die, like he said in John6 and 10, "for those that the Father has given me".
God cannot lie! He cannot go against His own nature.
We all have a will, but to act like fallen mankind has a perfectly free will, is just going too far.
----Pretty sure God was giving Jesus the whole earth. And we do have a perfectly free will, unfortunately, without God and without a knowledge of God...we would never follow Him. We'd follow after our own sinful flesh every time. Good thing God doesn't leave us in the dark.
Mark continues:
The bible says God "hardens" peoples hearts...but only through their own selfishly acquired sinful pride.
James replies:
So much for free will there huh!? What about Saul?
God blinded Him and knocked him to the ground, and made him unable to speak! That is NOT Saul reasoning with himself and making a decision is it?
----lol...whatever dude....He also sent a flood a destroyed the whole earth. Had nothing to do with a persons will. That's an external event. The bible doesn't say God controlled Paul's mind.
You can preach the gospel to a hundred people, and the ONLY ones who will repent and trust in Jesus are the ones that the Holy Spirit enters them, and MAKES them a new creature.
---You mean they have to repent before the spirit comes on them?! They have to do something??!!? Legalism!!
Mark continues:
God says He calls to everyone, but only a few answer.
James replies:
Mark, quote that verse correctly.
"many are called but few are CHOSEN".
--You're right, my bad.
Mark continues:
God's word doesn't say He forces people to become "hardened", and His word doesn't say He forces people to come to Jesus.
James replies:
God takes a totally dead person and makes them come alive.
If you are physically dead, and Jesus made you physically come back to life, do you think that God would be FORCING you to eat? Or....would the FACT that you are alive mean that you would NATURALLY become hungry and WANT to eat?
It is the SAME THING with a person who has been born again!
Jesus told Nicodemus that he could not even SEE the kingdom of God UNTIL he HAD been born again!
mark continues:
I just believe God works through the free will He sovereignly created us with...
James replies:
He DID THAT with Adam and EVE! Now, because of the Fall, ALL mankind is born with a will enslaved to sin.
See if you can find any verses that say that we have ability to come to Jesus on our own.
---I don't believe that. I believe God plants the seed in everyone. I'm not saying we do it on our own, I'm saying we have a part, or it means nothing.
See if you can find this free will you talk about in the Bible.
I have plenty of verses that show that there is NO free will, and NO ability to come to Jesus, without first being born again.
----I'm compiling a bunch, I'll get it to you.
I know free will SOUNDS right to you, but it is NOT in the Bible.
----Adam and Eve had it, Lucifer had it, where did we lose it? When we sinned? I'd like to see verses also.
mark continues:
.otherwise this whole process is worthless, and it makes God into a monster. Why didn't He save Lucifer? God made men a little lower than angels, right? Aren't they just as valuable if not more? Why not die for them, gracefully "force" them into salvation, and skip this whole bit with humans? If being sinful makes us lose our will, and puts our will under the direct control of God? Because God wanted to make them cause billions of people to sin and eventually kill them all to give Him more glory as a "God of mercy and love and justice"?? No. I don't believe that, and I would not serve a god like that. I'm very glad God isn't like that.
James replies:
You are saying that If God does not save everyone, then God is wrong? You are demanding that God save everyone, that God is somehow obligated to do this?
God has chosen to save perhaps a BILLION people!!
-----I am not saying that. And according to you, many more billions He chooses to fall. Tortured for eternity for something God made them do, or that God gave them no option out of, since sinners do not have a will of their own. Which brings us back to the point I was making about Satan. You're saying God controls Satan then, right? So why didn't God give Lucifer salvation? He obviously could have. I'm not saying God "has" to save everyone...I'm saying...under your belief where no sinner has free will...why didn't He predestine Satan and save a lot of suffering? Does He like people to sin? Does He like torturing sinners? Forever? I don't believe that.
That is MERCY and BLESSINGS beyond which you and I can even imagine right now!!!!!!!!!!! magnificence
----Yeah, mercy.
Please read John 6 and 10, and then
Romans 9.
Some people get incredible mercy, many get perfect justice, and NO ONE gets injustice.
---Hey, we agree on one thing at least!:yay:
"Calvinists have thought that the key to sovereignty is causation. They are wrong. The key to sovereignty is ultimate control. Through His absolute foreknowledge of every plan of man's heart, and through His absolute ability (omnipotence) to either permit or prevent any particular plan man may have, God maintains complete control (sovereignty) over His creation. The power to prevent means that God ultimately has the final word in everything that happens. To deny this is to deny the sovereignty of God!
It is true, then, that whatever happens is God's will. Everything that transpires falls within the sovereign will of God in one sense or another. However, it is absolutely crucial to understand that there are three different senses in which this may be true: (1) Sometimes a thing occurs because God decides it will happen, and then He makes it happen. This we have called God's decretive will and it seems to be limited mostly to His working out the "scheme of redemption." (2) Sometimes a thing occurs because God desires it and man decides, of his own free will, to do what God desires. This we have identified as God's preceptive will and has to do with God's commandments or precepts. (3) Sometimes a thing occurs because of the agency of an individual or group of individuals, and God permits it to happen. We have called this God's permissive will. Included in this category are sinful or careless acts like murder, or the death of one caused by the actions of a drunken driver. Even tragedies that occur through the natural processes would fit in this category. All three of these categories can be classified as "God's will," but only the first category is God's will in any causative sense. And even though God is Sovereign Ruler of the universe, categories two and three remind us that we must allow the Sovereign Ruler to respect the integrity of the freedom He has so graciously accorded His creation. As His creatures, we must learn to trust God's wisdom in knowing what good can be drawn from the tragic episodes He permits to take place in category three."
