in recent threads I have noticed some people tossing around scripture quotes to prove arguments and sometimes hardly anything else. I got in some cases the idea that the application of scripture is lead by a certain basic thought, and scripture is used to back this up.
It has been stated several times that the scripture was infalibe. So based on the infability of scripture people argumented with scripture quotes to back up their thoughts.
Now I wonder in which way people here believe that scripture is infallible. I wonder which kind of application of scripture people here consider right, and which kind they consider wrong.
What is the position of scripture? What is the position of exegesis? What is the position of hermeneutics for people in this form?
I want to start out giving my thoughts, mabe I add to it or make things clearer in following posts. I find that I cannot make my thoughts clear in first times, but I try to get to the point
I do have my problems ith speaking of the scripture as being infallible. After all, scripture is a thing, a book, not alive, not doing anything on its own. How can scripture than be more infallible than an orange or a hammer?
One might say: An orange does not contain thoughts, scripture does, and those thoughts can be wrong or right. So in this way scripture can be more infallible than a hammer. A hammer contains no thoughts.
I am still not convinced, as the thoughts are not in the text we read, but the text constitutes those thoughts in our brains. Maybe it's not even the text alone but also other things that we have experienced etc. Like in the morning I have read about big companies firing workers and raising managment payments at the same time, so this causes certain thoughts when reading about the rich having a hard time getting into heaven etc.
A text itself does not do anything, it does not contain anything, it does not tell anything on its own. Take a text in a foreign language you don't know. It will tel you nothing. Or will it? Maybe you get some thoughts looking at the strange signs and symbols of a strange language, completely unrelated to the text itself but at the same time they were started by you looking at the text...
What I want to say is that I think you always need somebody alive to have thoughts, a nonliving thing does not think and cannot contain thoughts. A dead thing can not even make thoughts for others, it is always somebody living who has thoughts and makes thoughts, produces them, based on things we see, hear, read, smell, remember, whatever.
So this is also true for the bible, if we can say that the bible is a dead thing. I do think that the bible is dead. It is not infallible, as a dead thing does not fit into categories as fallibility or infallibility. The bible is not God, because God consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and those are alive. Bible is not human, and not animal, not even plant. Not alive.
Everything we get from the bible is what we get from it by reading it ourselves, so all action comes either from us (as we are alive) or from somebody else, also alive, like the Holy Spirit, or simply somebody who explains things to us or tells us how he or she sees it. This person can him- or herself be guided by the Hoy Spirit. Or possibly aso by Satan, who knows...?
So I read the bible mysef, wehn I read it, and I tend not to think of it as a set of rules, because wide parts of the bible are not rules, but stories told. There are letters, there are arguments of every kind in scripture. Some things are said without being in the focus, others are in focus. I try to find out what the author of a biblical text wanted to say by writing it, or what a redactor wanted to say, as many biblical texts are the result of a redaction that changed the original ideas of different authors, for example the story of the great flood compared to the epic of Gilgamesh...
Reading the bibe and getting ideas about what authors and redactors might have said alone brings me nothing. This is only exegesis. It is important to what extent and for what I use the findings of bible lecture, so to say: What is my target. Aso the question what do I presume before, like what I wrote above...
I can find myself hermeneutics, there are various on the market, even when you reduce your search to theology or even prtestant theology.
But I still think, this is not enough: I myself cannot get anything infallible out of the bible, as whatever I get from it is what I made of it, as stated above. And I am falible, so whatever I get out of the bible myself is fallible, and this is true for every other person, however pious he or she might be, for nobody can get rid of his or her carnal mind.
It is my strong believe, that we need necessaryly the Holy Spirit to get anything good from the bible. If we try to get something from it without the Holy Spirit we can only get false thoughts in the end. And we cannot control the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit is God and God cannot be and will not be controlled by men.
This is why I am doubtful about quoting scripture in postings. I do so myself, and I wonder hwo much of it is good. I think it can ony be okay if there was some personal revelation about that passage, so we are only repeating what God told us personally through this piece of scripture.
So I read my scripture and hope for the Lord to open it to me. At some pieces He did, with most He didn't, and many are connected with passages where He spoke to me.
This is why I hardly back up my words on here with scripture (this and being lazy searching and not knowing so much of it by heart as others do).
Taking some scripture that gets in my line of thoughts can be supporting what I think, but also be meant in a different way. Without revelation from God, how can I know? So if I cannot know, how can I bring it forth here on the forums?
So I rather want to speak of what I was told by the Lord, or maybe what I think I was told. I want to speak about what I experienced in the Spirit, and I am also looking for people sharing their thoughts with me. Because there is something I have not spoke about yet:
What if we are mislead, how can we know?
Actually know, like knowing 2+2=4 we can never do (if you guys know the movie Matrix you know the thought that we can not know anything for sure).
But we are all followers of Christ, and we are told to be in contact, to meet for service and help one another, have love for one another. So we also speak about our personal revelations, and if there are others with the same revelation this is a hint, or if there are some who have a revelation that tells us differently. And finally there is always scripture to be read by us, waiting for further revelation, for furtherly being touched by Him. He will correct us if we go wrong one way or another. And our sisters and brothers can give us hints, hopefully without condemning (as this does only drive poeple further apart from one another, and this is a result ony Satan can like, that people are far away from one another).
So what do you guys think about scripture not being arguments for debate, but content to be spoken about? About the Holy Spirit not being the researched object of discussion (and thus a to-be-controlled-by-men-object) but being a sought but uncontrollable base for ourselves.
Tell me about your thoughts, and God bless you all.
I agree with all you said axecpt for the bible being te living word of God. I wonder where al you guy have this from, as this sentence is repeated several times. I entered it by google and it lead me to Hebr 4:12.
I will suggest you read John 1:10-18�Jesus is the Living WORD�.
*These are all just thoughts that come to my mind, but they add to my doubt about the bible being alive and the word of God.
The bottom line here is�You have Doubt�an you do not agree nor do ya havta with anything we have shared with you from scripture or personal interpretation or expression�.So.�.Nothin anyone says or writes Is gonna help ya understand your ( own ) Doubt�Since ya look ta your own understandin�you will probly always have doubt�
Blessins ta you an yours as you continue ta seek the Truth�May ya find it within the pages of a Book titled the HOLY BIBLE�Luv Ya All�.xo
John 1 is speaking of Jesus not the bible. And don't tak the doubt part too literal, I was seeking for another way to say "I wonder"... as said, English isn't my mother tungue, maybe I am not as precise as I want to be.
The Bible is the word of God to those that believe the word.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If you believe you will realize the word and Jesus are the same, or one
The word was made manifest.
!st John!1:1 � That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
0 � My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
The word of God is life and health to all that find it and keep it before the eye's and in the ears.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The word of God received in the heart of man will bring him unto the family of God and cause him to be born again, if it is received, by believing and then acting on the word,by saying it out of your mouth.
The word of God received by faith will renew the mind of man, that man can prove the will of God.
The word of God is able to restore the soul of man if it is heard and received by faith.
1 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The word of God ( Jesus) is Life, and will help you to not sin
Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
John 1 refers to Jesus Christ being the word of God. So does 1st John 1.
Proverbs 4,20ff speaks of the words of God, not the word of God. Is it in your understanding the same? Because I think "word of God" is a fix title while words of God seems not to be, but rather a synonym to the "sayings" after that. That's how Hebrew poetry works, with two things meaning the same following one after the other in some cases...
1. Pe 1,23: Born again of incorruptible seed by the word of God. The "word of God" is here again Christ in my understanding and the incorruptible seed is the faith in His death for my sins on the cross and His victory over devil, death and sin.
And look in 1. Pe 1,25: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
The word endureth forever just like Jesus said about Himself in Mt 28, 20:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
And what is preached by the gospel? Is the bible preached or it it Christ who is preached? I think we preach the resurrected Christ and not a book, though we use the book as a tool to preach about the resurrected Christ.
*The word of God received in the heart of man will bring him unto the family of God and cause him to be born again, if it is received, by believing and then acting on the word,by saying it out of your mouth.
If you mean Jesus Christ with the word of God I agree. If you mean the bible I cannot agree, as I believe we shall recieve God in our hearts and no thing else. The cause for being bor again is in my understanding God who works this through the Holy Spirit. But I do not believe because of the bible, I believe because I have experienced God. And how can I not believe what I have "seen"?
As long as you mean Jesus Christ by "word of God" we two do agree completely. If you mean the book of the bible, I am sorry that I cannot follow your point. The word of God is Jesus Christ for me and not the bible. And the bible is not Jesus Christ.
You quote Jam 1,21 and this is coser to some written down word being meant by "the word". In verse 18 it speaks about the "word of truth", with which He begat us. This seems to refer to John 1 where it is said about Jesus that everything that was made was made by Jesus Christ, the word. Jesus states about Himself in John that He was the truth, so I think even here Jesus Christ could be meant. A Hearer of the word would be someone who listens to Jesus, a doer of the word woud be harder to understand, but maybe James makes a little playing with words. Nobody can "do Jesus", you don't do persons as far as my understanding of Engish goes, at least it wouldn't make sense in German which is a close language...
So one could understand "do what Jesus told us to do". But this what Jesus told us to do is not the same as the bibe, though the bible contains the commandments of Jesus.
But as I said, this part of scripture can possiby be understood differently. I do not see a necessity to see it one way or the other.
Also Psalm 119:11 does not mention scripture but speaks of the "word". One could easily presume that it is spoken about having Jesus in one's heart so one cannot sin. Does this sound so strange? But as the Psalmist speaks about the laws of God etc before and after, the "word" of God could also be referring to something written down or at least something different from Jesus.
But if that is so it does still not say that the word is the same as the bible or the bible being the same as Jesus.
I can agree with you when you say: The word of God is alive, if you mean Jesus Christ and not the bible.
I cannot agree with you when you say: The word of God is also referred to as the bible. I know this tradition in different churches, also my church, but I think there is still a difference between Jesus Christ and the bible, even if both in different traditional lines are referred to as "the word of God".
Like the word Lucifer being used in some traditions to refer to Jesus Christ, though no one would say Jesus was Satan. Usually this is not visible in bible texts today, as the translators usually don't want to confuse people too much. But when the bible uses the word morning star, the Greek has the word phosphoros, which translates to Latin as Lucifer, in English it would be Bringer of Light.
And Jesus was indeed the bringer of Light, He was the Light Himself, Light of the world, but Satan tries to decieve us dressing up like a light-figure, I guess this is how Lucifer became a synonym for Satan.
All I want to say is, that we have to be carefu with words, because sometimes we have the same words that mean different things and sometimes we have different words meaning the same. So Jesus is both, ight of the world and word of God and there are many more titles to Him.
I will get back to you sometimes later. I had a long day, and I have need to read clearly your comments and those of the other posters, before I respond.
I did read some of what you said, but Im' somewhat worn to respond.
I would like to ask you if you believe what John say in chapter 1: 1-18, I think Philip brought it up. Verse 14, and the WORD (Jesus) became flesh... The Biblle is the book which contains the WORD that God breathed out of His mouth.
*I would like to ask you if you believe what John say in chapter 1: 1-18, I think Philip brought it up. Verse 14, and the WORD (Jesus) became flesh...
Sure I believe that. But:
*The Biblle is the book which contains the WORD that God breathed out of His mouth.
Or what you say, PhillipJohn:
*The Word written in the book we call the bible is also Spirit.
I do not know where you take this from. Of course the bible contains quotations of God and Jesus. But if a scrapbook contains pictures of a person, the scrapbook is not itself the person or even the appearance of that person, right?
Thanks for taking the time to read my long comments. :applause:God bless you all.
