Although, I am ordained as an Evangelist/Missionary, my views are very different than many women in ministry in that, I do not think God intended or has called women to be as PASTORS over a church. I'm not speaking about His call on women in ministry or the spreading of the gospel, because there are many examples of women in ministry in the Old and New Testament.
My view and reasoning, is based on what is in Ephesians chapter5, and God's setup of the original family in the beginning with Adam and Eve over the garden (home) which is like unto the church. He put man in charge of the garden, just as he put man in charge of the home.
On the other hand, I feel, if there is not a man to be in this position, and a woman minister is available, she is able to stand in until a man is there to take over. I base this on Genesis chapter 29, wherein Raechel is recorded as being the first woman shepherdess tending sheep, up UNTIL Jacon came , then she turned it over to him. Same principle...
God has an order of roles and postions for the man and the woman, and the unity of marriage is compared and symbolic to the church. And just as He never intended nor purposed in the beginning nor called or placed women to be heads of households, He never called or place a woman head of His church.
When the man is out of place, it is reason for the woman to take the lead and be head of her household, BUT, this was not in God's original painting of the family. When a man and woman are married they are one therefore, if the man is the pastor of a church, would it not go to reason that his wife is co-pastor along side of him? Therefore, she would be UNDER his covering yet, she still does not have authority OVER her husband OR the church. She is only CO-pastor with him.Just as she would be co-head of the household along side of her husband in the home.
What your thoughts about women who have the title of PASTOR over the church?
Do you think the SBC is wrong for their actions in this case?
Baptists to Cut Ties with Ga. Church Over Female Pastor
By Audrey Barrick|Christian Post Reporter
A more than 95-year-old church in Atlanta may be ousted from the Southern Baptist Convention over a woman pastor.
The Rev. Mimi Walker has been serving as co-pastor at Druid Hills Baptist Church with her husband, the Rev. Graham Walker, since 2003. But earlier this month, leaders of the Georgia Baptist Convention recommended cutting ties with the local congregation.
"It seems sad that they decided to go backwards in time," Mimi Walker told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I'm not sure what the value is of trying to go back in time when women were held in subservience."
According to the Southern Baptist Convention's 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, the office of pastor is "limited to men as qualified by Scripture."
In keeping with the confession statement, the state convention voted on March 16 to declare Druid Hills "not a cooperating church."
It added, "The GBC has never been opposed to women serving in ministry positions other than pastor," according to Associated Baptist Press.
This is the second time the Georgia Baptist Convention has moved toward severing ties with a local church over a female pastor. Last year, the convention voted to end its relationship with First Baptist Church in Decatur over the congregation's decision to bring a woman to the pulpit. Julie Pennington-Russell became senior pastor of First Baptist in 2007.
"I�ve seen women in the ministry and worked with women in Presbyterian and Methodist churches," Walker told AJC. "They are moving forward in the process of keeping women involved in the ministry and moving toward equality.
"Our disagreement is related to how you interpret Scripture."
Amid ongoing conflicts over female pastors, some Southern Baptist leaders have made clarifications to what they believe.
Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said the Baptist Faith and Message does not state that "women are to be subservient to men." They are of equal worth before God, he stated earlier.
And though women are gifted for service in the church, Land says the New Testament teaches that "a woman is not to usurp authority over the man" and thus women are not to serve as pastors.
The Georgia Baptist Convention, which has roughly 3,600 churches and is one of 41 state conventions throughout the country, will vote in November on the recommendation to sever ties.
I Forgot... So Walter, when God gave out the requirements and qualifications as I've listed for the positons for men in leadership in the church. You stated that God cannot contradict His word, so does God contradict His word when there are men in leadership positions as pastors, bishops, elders, deacons, and they are HUSBANDS OF MORE THAN ONE WIFE?... just asking:zzzz:
Everyone knows that we have to keep our women barefoot and pregnant! Oh, and in the kitchen,too.:rocknroll::ROFL:
I do believe a man shoul be a leader. If he is not,he needs to mature for a while before starting a family. Leader does not mean boss. Most people will follow a good leader without even thinking about it. It just comes naturally.
I see you continue to not give sound exegesis of the passage in question.
Before I begin, let me give you some information that will help in your understanding of what Elder, Bishop and Pastor means. They are all the same office.
Elder: Who he is
Bishop: Job description.
Pastor: How he does his job.
First off, that God is sovereign is not the question nor an answer. Can God do whatever He wants to do? Yes as long as it is in within His Character and Nature. God cannot sin, God cannot lie. God cannot go against His written word. To go against His written word is to make God a liar, which is what you are implying but may not realize it. The cannon of scriptures is sealed. No more is being added to God's word. What He has given us in scripture is complete and cannot be changed nor altered. This is His Word, signed sealed and delivered. If anyone teaches or preaches something contrary then that person is teaching falsely. But as scriptures states, that is to be expected and has been prophesied to occur.
Next let's get this straight about what Paul has said.
1Corinthians 14:34 the women must keep silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak out, but must place themselves in submission, as the law also says.
35 If they want to learn anything, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is inappropriate for a woman to speak out in church.
36 Did God's word originate with you? Are you the only people it has reached?
***37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
38 But if anyone ignores this, he should be ignored. (ISV) ***
Everything Paul has written are direct COMMANDMENTS of the Lord Himself. There were just a couple of exceptions and in those exceptions where Paul gave his "opinion" he made it clear that is what he was doing. HOWEVER in none of those cases was it dealing with women keeping silent like in the passage above or with Leadership positions so designated to be filled by men ONLY.
1 Tim2: 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
***12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.***
Let's examine this carefully. We see that women must dress themselves modestly. That is another topic. Then we have a clear command placed upon WOMEN. They are not permitted to teach or have authority over a MAN. Now if a woman were to be allowed to be an Elder, which is what a Pastor is, then she would have authority over a man and be in a position to TEACH men in the church. This is clearly FORBIDDEN by THE LORD. Nowhere in the New Testament has God allowed for any exception to this. Period. Please show me where God/Jesus/an Apostle made any statement that if a man who was a Pastor failed at his job that HE would raise up a woman to take up that leadership position. You know what God would do? He would raise up another MAN among one of the ELDERS and not go against His written commandments.
Next.
1 Tim 2:1 � This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, {Literally overseer} he desires a good work.
2 A bishop THEN MUST BE blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, temperate, sober�minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
Among the *** "MUST BE"*** qualifications for this is that this person MUST BE a Man because a woman cannot be a Husband and a woman as in 1 Tim 2 is forbidden to teach or have a authority over a man.
Dennis,
You said: Freinds I have been busy the last few days and missed this. A few pointers that you can not over look.Paul in his writings speaks to Tabatha A woman pastor who died and was brought back to life.What of Lydia?A pastor of a church.Our souls are neither male nor female. Please look at the text correctly my friends. What of the 7 daughters of Philip, they were all prophetess? What of Debra she was a judge,old testament? Did not a prophetess seek out the baby Jesus. It is a fact that on occassion a women are in leadership. So, before you say it is not so friends remember god never said a woman can not lead.
WALTER: I am sorry my Friend but you have got this completely wrong. These women were never Pastors or church leaders. No scriptures says what you are claiming. Furthermore a "prophetess" is not a church leadership position. Leadership positions for Christ's NEW Testament Churches are given specific qualifications and one of them without exception is that they must be MEN. The scriptures are more than clear on this.
DENNIS: Oh, that statement about women not speaking in church was for a reason.many non jews were getting saved and some churches had a problem with women gabbing during the service and being a disruption.Paul had to enforce a line of order to keep control.
WALTER: While that is partially true Dennis, the rest of the passage concerning this is also clear in that women are forbidden to TEACH or have authority over a men. A Pastor/Elder/Bishop are positions of authority over the whole congregation and those positions TEACH in the churches. So that would preclude women from holding these offices.
DENNIS: Walter, to say that any woman in the role of a pastor is a liar is just so wrong.God never says that.Please examine that train of thought. On occassion god does choose women to lead.That is not our call to debate or judge. I think you are out of line using words that were that strong.My examples show that I am right.
WALTER: I believe I have proven from scriptures that the position I hold to is the Biblically sound one. Your examples do not prove your case at all. You have not demonstrated with any scriptures that these women held the specific positions of Elder, Bishop or Pastor, because they never did nor could. Again I will state that if any woman claims that God called her to be a Pastor, Elder or Bishop, then I say that according to God's written word, she is a liar, utterly deceived and the truth in not in her.
2Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. NKJV
You said: Well Walter according to you a lot of women are caught in sin
But we will go by the word.
WALTER: Not according to me but according to God's written word Phillip.
PHILLIP: How many times are you going to try and say woman can't speak in the church, or to the church. Of course you can find scriptures that prove otherwise, so go back and ask for help from the lord to understand that verse and verses.
WALTER: Thanks for the suggestion, presumptuous as it is. The Lord has already helped me to understand this. Perhaps it is you who is not understanding this as you have not presented any scriptures with any sound exegesis to prove your position nor have you demonstrated where any of my exegesis is in error.
PHILLIP: Walter that does not fit either to this truth:Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
WALTER: Ok Phillip, what is your point here? Neither passage has anything to do with the topic at hand. Neither passage can negate the clear commandments of the Lord in what Paul specifically laid out as to the gender specific rolls for church leadership.
:zzzz:...oH gOODY...ANOTHER gENDER specific debate...Ok Class...now dont forget ta use clear scriptures an ya havta Prove ( Yer ) point in the debate...Add as many of your own interpetations an opinions an allow extra time for the bashin an tearin apart the LORD's words...You will be graded on this when the Bell Rings for recess...and afor I forget...Have FUN....On yer MARK...Get Set...Ready...GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....:bouncy:...xo
P.S. Lady's...Any of ya up for a game of Hearts as we let the Men play Spades..???...:goofball:
@Walter: What do you think, what is the difference in the ways to use the bible between Satan and Christians? For Satan knows scripture perfectly and uses it.
Is there any way to find out who stands behind it, Satan or Holy Spirit? A way that has nothing to do with wits and intelligence and is thus open for every believer and not dependend on the doing?
Listen, my friend, sorry, but I didn't spend 4 yrs. in seminary for nothing getting my Masters in Biblical Studies, and if the Lord is willing I will get my doctrate in December, graduating with a 4.0 ....
Your request was that I "address Husband of one wife." My complete answer to this can be found on page 3 (three) of this thread. I think I did very well addressing your request, considering your request was not for purpose of learning or understanding of this requirment, but to prove your own point.... and I do await your response to my comments on page 3 (three). You tend not to respond to certain comments directly, because you are focus on making your points and not hearing or listening to what others say.
Again, and I must add ths requirement or qualififcation IS NOT one that disqualifies nor prohits women from leadership ministry, if God calls her... I'm speaking about GOD, NOT IF WALTER CALLS HER! If this is all you can come up with, then, many pastors, deacons, bishops, and elders have need to set down and not get into ministry, because the scripture says HE MUST BE THE HUSBAND OF ONE (NTO TWO OR THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE) WIVES, and this sinve you and other men who don't like the idea of women in leardership in ministry are so set on following what Paul says, then so are you and all the rest prohibited and or disqualified form leadership positions and any form of positions of authority in the church and ministry, based on this "HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE" .
But the facts remian God placed men in authority over the church and home. Many homes are wihtou men, and many church are without men, who ever qualifiy or can meet the requirments BUT there are many women who can. So do you think God is going to sit back and watch and see if a man is going to setp up to the plate as a pastor? I don't think so.
I think You are the one who is not spirutally discerning the spiritual things of God nor are you discerning God Himself as being sovereign. You keep covering trying to make your points. Sorry, the points have already been made, God made them when He said HE was GOD, NOT you or me or anyone. He is God and YOUR WAYS or not His ways, nor are YOUR thoughts HIS thoughts. I think everyone is granting God His free will and power to do as He please, but you are trying to make Him stick to what you THINK Paul said about women in ministry in the church. It ain't happening..:rocknroll:
Again, I, nor anyone has said God has NOT put man in authority and leadership over His church just as He has put man in rank position over the home. Our point is that becasue HE IS GOD, He and only HE, not YOU, He will and can allow women to be in any position He pleases.
SUBMISSION is the principle point of Paul statement , and women learning to keep her mouth silentin the church as in speaking out over the speaker is the APPLICATION. She is Not prohibited from skeaing in the church, she is prohibited from speaking out asking questions over the speaker in the church.
YOU seem to be forgetting WHO GOD IS, and you're determined to prove your stance and that you're going to have it your way. Well, butster brown... as I said, God doesn't listen to you or me or anyone. No, God's word isn't out of order, nor does women pastors or co-pastor contradict or make Him a liar. MEN are out of order and refuse to take control and authority in the position God has given him, and the contridicts the word and makes God a lair, becasue men are to be in authority in the home and church, just as Adam was out of order in the garden.
So why is that men are not getting into ministry as women?
Why is it that many men are leaving ministry? Aren't they in power. Well, I suppose the word fulfilled, many are called but only a few are chosen...So, who do you think God is going to raise up over His people?
God gave Adam the rules and regulations and authority, not Eve. But he sat back and turn everything over to her and then had nerves to blame God. This is why Adam is mentioned in Timothy,. Paul is trying to help the men by explaining to then that it is their responsibility to fulfill their duties in the church as the ones God ordained in authority over the church.
And you seem to be dismissing my questions. You continue to state that a woman can't because Paul states that women are not allowed to speak in the church or have leadership positions in ministry. I say, where on earth do you find this written? The evidence is all aorund you, its that YOU refiuse to accept it, that every position or role women were a part of in ministry with Jesus and Paul were leadership roles in ministry and the church.
In I Corinthians Chapter 11:5, Paul speaks about women praying and prophesy in the church... well, sir, if they were allow to pray and prophesy in the church, were they praying silently and writng their prophesies on paper? Or what? Or were they praying only with women and prophesying only to women?... is not being a prophetess a leadership position and role in the church?
It seems this is what Paul writes in Ephesians chapter 4, GOD gave some apostles,and some PROPHETS/PROPHETESS, and some EVANGELISTs, and some PASTORS, and TEACHERS. for the equipping of the saints, forthe work in ministry. Oh, I forgot, I bet according to YOU , this is no longer in effect. This was for the first century church only. If this be the case, Wouldn't it also be true that if women were told not to speak in the first century church, this would not apply for the 21st century church? ...just asking.
