This is going to be a long post but it has to be in order to address yours.
JOEY: Good point Cattleman~love is a gift and fruit that will never be done away with, even in heaven.
I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, by laying on of hands of other believers baptized in the Holy Spirit, the same Friday night in 1971 that I was found by Jesus. It was real, it is a promise to us and and I received that gift by Faith in Him.
WALTER: There is no separate baptism of the Holy Spirit. Once we are Baptized in water it is there that the Holy Spirit comes into us to dwell in us. There is only one Baptism.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM; NKJV
As we can see there is only one Baptism, not multiple baptisms or a separate Baptism of the Holy Spirit to receive gifts.
JOEY: "For the promise [of the gift of the Holy Spirit] is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" Acts 2:39
WALTER: Joey you are misinterpreting this passage and placing a meaning upon a word that is not Biblical if you are intending to mean that the word "GIFT" here implies spiritual gifts. Let's look. Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
"The GIFT" of the Holy Spirit is not spiritual gifts. It is the Holy Spirit HIMSELF. That is the promise we are given for those who become believers.
JOEY: The laying on of hands was not an uncommon practice for the Jews for various things but it is not the ONLY way to receive this gift:
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" Luke 11:1-13.24
WALTER: Come on now Joey. This passage is not talking about "spiritual gifts". The context is about God providing for our basic necessities of life. You cannot take a word and then try to twist it in order to make your case.
JOEY: Peter preaches the word to the Gentiles at Caesarea that "every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name," and at that very moment the Spirit "fell on all who heard the word" Acts:10:43-44.
WALTER: This is the only event other than Pentecost where the Holy Spirit imparted spiritual gifts without the direct laying on of one of the 12 Apostles hands. It is clear as to why the Holy Spirit did this. Peter had not as yet comprehended that the gifts were to be extended to Gentiles. He had thought it was just for Jews. The Holy Spirit had to show Peter that his thinking was incorrect so that he would get with the program. Other than this incident, the Holy Spirit did not impart any spiritual gifts to anyone else unless it was through one of the 12 Apostles of Christ by their laying on of their hands.
JOEY: One does Not need to be an apostle to lay hands on a believer who needs prayer for this or anything else but must have a devoted life to Christ and have the gift themselves:
WALTER: So far you have not proven your case. In fact you have not even gone to my post and disproved anything I presented to be in any error. Look carefully at what Simon observed.
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw.... THAT THROUGH... the laying on of ....THE APOSTLE'S HANDS..... the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe? That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts through the Apostles of Christ by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated.
JOEY: Ananias is no apostle: he is simply described as "a disciple at Damascus" Acts:9:10. Ananias comes to Paul, "And laying his hands on him he said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit'" 9:17. ~
Thus were hands laid not by an apostle but by a Christian brother. The important matter is not that Ananias was executing an apostolic office but that he was fulfilling a specific command of the Lord Jesus. Ananias is later described by Paul as "a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there [in Damascus]" Acts 22:12~
Note he was a man of strong faith and perhaps peculiarly prepared through his devotion to the law to minister to Saul the Pharisee. It may be suggested that a combination of factors, the most fundamental being his devoutness~10~ made him suited to exercise the role of ministering to Paul's need. Hence, to repeat, the basic qualification for the imposition of hands was not that of apostolic office or function.
WALTER: There is a very important point that you are missing from this passage. Remember that The Apostles had been laying hands on people and people were RECEIVING spiritual gifts that they could exercise. Some people like Ananias obviously had received the gift of healing. Ananias was NOT imparting any GIFT or GIFTS to Paul. Receiving a gift and exercising that gift like "healing" is no where even close to having the special supernatural power to impart Gifts that only the Apostles of Jesus Christ had. Do you see the difference? This is critical~!
It is the same situation in the passage about Simon.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, SEEING THE MIRACLES AND SIGNS THAT WERE DONE.
Phillip clearly had received supernatural gifts through the laying on of the Apostles hands but notice that while he could EXERCISE those gifts....he was not able to transfer or impart those gifts to anyone else. That is why Apostles OF Jesus Christ had to go to where Phillip was so THAT they could impart spiritual gifts and that is what Simon observed.
JOEY: This promise is for ALL of us and I find the ones, I have talked to, who deny the gifts for today have NEVER asked for it. I challenge all of you who deny it is for today~~to ask for it if you are dedicated to Jesus and a person of prayer.
WALTER: Sorry Joey but that is simply not accurate. So far you have not proven your case at all. Your statement could be deemed offensive by implying that those of us who do not believe in the "Gifts" for today are somehow less dedicated to Jesus and not people of prayer. Do you see how that smacks of "spiritual superiority"?! So far scriptures do not support the conclusions and assertions you have been making regard "Gifts" being for today. In fact the scriptures have clearly proven otherwise.
JOEY:Why would God not want this gift to operate in the last days which are foretold to be very wicked and evil? The purpose of the baptism is to endow us with the gifts and to help us be strong witnesses:
WALTER: No Joey that is not correct as there is only one Baptism. Your conclusion is faulty because your foundation is faulty. Gifts are not needed to be strong witnesses. Our walk, out holiness, our righteous living, our commitment, our obedience to Christ's commandments, how we show our love for one another, even our enemies is what makes us strong witnesses. That is how our light shines to a darken world.
JOEY: Acts 1~you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth
While these gifts come from Christ, they are quite different from each other. The first-forgiveness of sins-has to do with conversion, a radical turning to Christ from sin; the second-baptism in the Holy Spirit-relates to immersion in the reality of God's presence and the ensuing power for witness and ministry. The former has to do with becoming a Christian, the latter with Christian ministry. Together the two make up the fullness of Christian discipleship.
WALTER: I have already demonstrated that your belief in this is not built upon any solid scripture but upon misinterpretations of scriptures. Remember there is only ONE BAPTISM, not two.
JOEY: Where in this scripture does it indicate APOSTLES only?
WALTER: I have already shown you the scriptures but you do not address them. Why? LEt me show you again.
Acts 8: 18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
If an Apostles of Christ was not necessary then why did Paul say this?:...Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I MAY IMPART TO YOU SOME SPIRITUAL GIFT, so that you may be established�
If the Holy Spirit had not exclusively been giving gifts through one of the 12 Apostles of Christ then the Christians in Rome would not have need Paul to go there and Paul would not have made that statement.
Here is another passage dealing with the special powers given exclusively to the Apostles.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
I want to point out a few things here. First when the scripture here referes to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
JOEY: Joel2:28~And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Was this directed to the apostles only?
WALTER: Well Joey let's look at the verse above what you quoted to see if it does or not. But let's look at Peter's quote in Acts because there is make an important point.
When you read Acts 2 and when the Holy Spirit descended upon those in the upper room, people were witnessing a fulfillment of a prophesy. This actually requires another thread LOL but I will make it short. The 120 in the upper room were speaking in various "tongues"...actual languages and they were saying something specific, a particular saying in different languages. "This is the refreshing". Then Peter answering the inqusitors said this: Act 2:16 But THIS IS what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
In other words what was happening AT THAT TIME was a fulfillment of a prophesy. The prophesy does not say how long this would continue. The text does not give us that liberty. BUT there in that prophesy is a dual fold prophesy. Part of that Prophesy was not as yet to be fulfilled and that is pertaining to "The Day of the Lord". That is yet to be fulfilled after The Great Tribulation.
JOEL: James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick , and the Lord shall raise him up ; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed . The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
WALTER: Good passage but it does not apply to supernatural gifts being passed on or imparted or even exercised. It is simply asking GOD for HIS divine healing. That is a far cry from an Apostles laying on hands and that person being immediately healed.These are different operations.
JOEY: Granted~ America is full of unbelief which hinders the moving of the Holy Spirit and the WOF T.V. evangelists have made the gift of the Holy Spirit look like a circus but Jesus is still the same yesterday, today and forever.
WALTER: Yes Jesus is the same but that statement refers to His character not how He chooses to operate at different times.
JOEY: Look at what is going on in third world countries~~~
Joey, sweet sister in the Lord. I'm in agreement with you and others that have, believe, seen and expieranced the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. No one is going to tell me or convience me that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not real or moving through us in the world today. Praise God !..xo..:bow:
dear folks, what do you do with this verse then ? here the HOLY SPIRIT came upon the peoples before they were water baptized.. and they spoke in tongues .. it was then after that, that peter commanded them to be water baptized in the name of the LORD..
acts 10:44-48 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days
again ill say its never about a man or what a man can do its only about the HOLY SPIRIT and what HE can do.. and the gifts are distributed to whom the HOLY SPIRIT gives to individually as HE wills. and we all have been given a gift or a variety of gifts..
im a man that believes in keepin it simple.. so lets look at the spiritual gifts mentioned in corinthians chapter 12 and a dose of chapter 13 ..
the manestifation of the SPIRIT is given to each for the prophit of all.
the word of wisdom
the word of knowlege
faith
gifts of healings
working of miracles
prophecy
discernment of spirits.
different kinds of tongues
interpretation of tongues
then we see what GOD has appointed in the church
apostles
prophets
teachers
miracles healings
helps
administrations
varieties of tongues
lets also note that it doesnt say apostles only for any of the gifts..
then in chapter 13 we see the gifts of faith hope and love mentioned..
so see folks if you believe one gift does not belong today then youd have to say none of these gifts belong today..
and thats just not the way it is .. see the gifts you can relate to well they seem right to ya but its the ones you cant really relate to thatll hang you up..
see if you believe the simple ones that most every christian will in fact acknowlege today.. say the gifts of wisedom,knowlege,faith,discernment of spirits,teachers, helps, administrations,hope ,love, if you believe that these gifts are handed out individually as the HOLY SPIRIT WILLS,,,, then you understand that the other gifts can be be as well. cause there is not a verse that states the HOLY SPIRIT ever stopped giving out these gifts and you can grasp that the simple gifts are still handed out today.. so why not believe that the other gifts can be too?
Dear Brother Cattle, Oh my Goodness ! I will accept that as the infallible �Word�. If I may, here is another Biblical view of Baptisms. And Jesus* him self spoke these "Words" its printed in Red, KJV John 3:5 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of (water) and (of) the (Spir'it), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. He didn�t say which order. He just spoke it in the order that it came to him an I don�t wanna be questioning what the Lord says. Its been my personal experience every time I have, and asked God why, how come, but, ? He answers without fail �Because I said So!�..xo..:bouncy:
Did any of you really "STUDY" my post? Because you sure did not address my post.
For those of you who "think" you have experienced the "manifestation of the Holy Spirit" in supernatural gifts, then does your experience line up soundly on God's written Word? Not at all as I have proven. People can have all sorts of "spiritual experiences" but it does not mean it is "from or of God". Satan can also influence and deceive Christians. I have witnessed people speak in what they think is a tongue but it was merely gibberish and clearly not of God. It was that same gibberish that cults and the "Occult" speak. The same tongues that those who deny the deity of Christ speak.
Let's test the "spirits" shall we? Let's see who is a faker, a fraud, a decieved person or if you genuinely possess a "SUPERNATURAL Gift" from the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Above is clearly an application to ALL Christian as the GRAMMAR is clear.
Mar 16:17 And these signs WILL FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELIEVE:
[ If "those who believe" applies to believers for TODAY then the Grammar requires ALL believers TODAY to possess ALL the abilities listed below. ]
In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." NKJV
So if this passage is applied for us TODAY then EVERY Christian without exception MUST possess these supernatural gifts. If any of you truly understand "The established method of Biblical Interpretation", if any of you really understand basic Grammar then you will know that the grammar gives no wiggle room here.
How many of you are foolish enough to put this to the test?
How many of you can pick up a Green Momba, one of the world's most deadly snakes and not be harmed? Let's use the snakes that are of the region of the Apostles.... Vipers. Cobras another deadly snake. Care to play with one and see if you are harmed or killed?
How about having some deadly poison with your dinner? Would you like some cyanide straight up or on the rocks?
Let me save you from certain death.
The above passage does NOT apply for Christians today. The GRAMMAR irrefutably is directed to those Believers AT THAT TIME because those believers had the benefit of the APOSTLES OF Jesus Christ in their supernatural ability, given to THEM by God, to lay hands on Believers and give them "Supernatural Gifts".
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, [ the Apostles] He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles] went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
I want to point out a few things here again. First when the scripture here refers to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them... BY the Apostles. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
Acts 8: 18 And when Simon saw THAT through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
No one had this supernatural power except for the 12 Apostles of Christ and no one could obtain this specific power.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I MAY IMPART TO YOU some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
If an Apostle of Christ is not needed to impart Supernatural Gifts to a Christian, then why was it necessary for Paul to go to Rome so that these Christians would have gifts imparted to them through Paul?
dear walter, you know i love ya bro and i respect you ..but im havin a very hard time figuring out this statement here..
your words here
I have witnessed people speak in what they think is a tongue but it was merely gibberish and clearly not of God. It was that same gibberish that cults and the "Occult" speak. The same tongues that those who deny the deity of Christ speak.
mine here
it appears here that you have been given the gift of intrepretation of tongues.. hehe or that you have been given the gift of discernment to be able to distinguish between a fake and the real tongues.. to know that it was only gibberish and to be able to discern what is of GOD and what isnt..
you see walter my friend i know you have been given the gifts of faith,love,hope,discernment,knowlege,wisedom and maybe some more i dont even know about, all given to you by the HOLY SPIRIT , the same one that hands out gifts individually as HE wills. so i am hoping that you realize those gifts you have been given are some of the same spiritual gifts that were mentioned together in the bible ..
and that the HOLY SPIRIT can hand out any of the other spiritual gifts mentioned in the bible individually as HE wills as well.. the key words are as HE wills.
you cant deny that you have been given these gifts and you have them today.. ..
so how can anyone deny that the HOLY SPIRIT can hand out any of the gifts in the bible to anyone HE wills ,any time HE wills ...
1 corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
I think what you may not be seeing is that there are specific "Supernatural gifts" and other types of gifts. A good comparison would be to look at those supernatural gifts that the Corinthian church had which was established by Paul and then compare those gifts to those in the church of Rome. When you do that you will find different types of gifts with only one mutual exception. Someone had the gift of prophesy. No doubt that someone had had an Apostle of Christ lay their hands upon them in order to have received that gift otherwise why didn't the Holy Spirit distribute the Supernatural Gifts to the rest of the Christians in Rome? Why was it necessary for Paul to go to them for the purpose of imparting supernatural gifts to them?
As far as Tongues is concerned. Tongues is a known language on this Earth. It is not a "prayer language" as there is no such thing in scripture or a language of Angels as Paul never suggested that we could speak in an Angelic tongue. He was using a hyperbole. I do not have a gift of interpretation but I have heard a great many languages before and can usually guess what it is. Gibberish however is not of God and that is what I hear being spoken in Charismatic type churches.
Tongues served a particular purpose back in the day and it was a fulfillment of a particular prophesy given to Israel to rebuke the leadership of Israel because of their rejection of the Messiah. In fact Paul clearly said that "tongues" would cease all on their own without any event causing them to cease.
dear folks,, we as humans try to use logic to explain away things that totally defy all logic.. the things that we dont understand or grasp or that we cant relate to as in we havent experienced this ourselves..
i dont think youll find too many folks that was or is more skeptical than myself .. but whats kinda ironic is lots of times with skeptical folks ,they will say hey gotta be careful as satan can hand out gifts...
and im like you believe satan can hand out gifts but yet youre unwiling to believe GOD can and does hand out good gifts? i will leave you all with a few verses here.. first one shows that folks who were not with JESUS and the diciples were able to perform miracles in JESUS S name.. and JESUS forbid em to stop em ..
mark 9:38-39 38 Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us."
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
1 corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 corinthians 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
1 corinthians 14:13-15 13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding
folks as with anything always check their fruits..
dont be ashamed of the gifts you are given.. use them for the GLORY OF GOD..
Why have you not addressed the scriptures I have presented?
Please explain these.
Acts 8: 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon SAW THAT THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLE'S HANDS the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe?
That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts through the Apostles of Christ by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated.
"According to Mark's account of the Great Commission, the gifts were given to believers to confirm the testimony of the Apostles as they went out to preach the Gospel. The distribution and continued exercising of supernatural gifts was specifically to confirm the Apostolic testimony of Christ's teachings and His resurrection.
There is abundant testimony in Acts to miraculous deeds being done by the Apostles. With the coming of the Spirit's power at Pentecost came certain supernatural "gifts" upon the Apostles themselves. But, we also find that others besides the Apostles received spiritual gifts after Pentecost. The question before us now is, what was the mode of transmitting spiritual gifts to ordinary Christians as the Gospel spread through the witness of the Apostles? Jesus told His Apostles that "signs shall follow them that believe," as they obeyed the Great Commission. But how would this occur?
If the purpose of distributing miraculous gifts to converts was to confirm the Apostles' own testimony, we would expect that reception of the gifts by believers would take place only when Apostles were present, as they testified to the Gospel of Christ and His resurrection. If the distribution of gifts by the Holy Spirit was intended to operate independent of the Apostles (without their personal touch or presence), we would expect to see the gifts being bestowed at any place or at any time the Gospel was preached in truth. But that is not the case either in Scripture or early Church history.
Without exception, the Biblical record indicates that at least one of the 12 Apostles were present in every instance where spiritual gifts were bestowed by the Spirit. In all but two of these, the Apostles laid hands directly on the recipients. This was the normal MODE of transmission of the gifts to those who believed the Gospel message preached by the Apostles. Even in the couple of exceptions where direct contact did not occur, the impartation of the gifts was done with Apostles present. In every case where the Gospel was preached without an Apostle being present, no impartation of spiritual gifts is indicated in the historical narrative."
Please explain why Paul had to go to Rome in order to impart
"Spiritual Gifts" to those Christians?
Why didn't the Holy Spirit give out the gifts apart from an Apostle of Christ laying hands on them?
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I MAY IMPART TO YOU SOME SPIRITUAL GIFT, so that you may be established�
NKJV
If it were as Pentecostals and Charismatics claim in that the Holy Spirit normally gave gifts WITHOUT one of the 12 Apostles of Christ laying hands upon a person, then why didn't the Holy Spirit impart supernatural gifts upon the Roman Church and why was it necessary for Paul to go there to lay hands on them so that they would receive these spiritual "gifts"?
I will address the scriptures from your last post. The Corinthian passages were taken way out of context. The other passage in Mark is an interesting one and I will address this one too. :)
dear folks, i think this will be my final thoughts on this here post.. i wanna make it plain that i dont have the gift of tongues or healings or miracles that i know of as of yet ..
but here is what ive witnessed and been a part of..
the whole church laying hands upon one person that had been to the doctors and had been told she has a cancerous tumor in her uterus.. a good sized one. the sunday before she had to go back on monday and they were gonna give her her options... the whole church toutched her and prayed over her for quite some time after the service.. all praying in JESUS name..
the tumor showed on whatever it was they used to see it and they had also done a biopsy on it..
now when she went back on monday well the docs couldnt find any hint of a tumor.. she had been healed.. the good LORD chose to heal her .. praise GOD. it was a good well respected friend of mine..
ive also witnessed the speaking of tongues and the intrepreters told us what was being said. and what was being said was what GOD had already said in the bible.. but was making an exclamation point on it for the church at that time period..
i witnessed one of my singers praying in tongues alone to GOD before we were to go on stage.. they didnt know i was there ..and it was a beautiful thing to see and hear..
when my grandmother had a stroke the first time i was there and she bagan praying in tongues.. as far as any of us knew she never had before as she was a old time baptist.. it was wonderful the HOLY SPIRIT knew what to pray for her..
my great uncle was a healer.. a quiet humble man.. never bragged about his gift.. he healed my mother of things when she was young.. he stopped the bleeding when people got hurt in the fields farming.
my personal experience with him as a young teen i had warts all over my hand and one in my nose , i played with alot of frogs when i was young hehe.. but wed tried everything to get rid of em.. the docs were at a loss. theyd burn em off and theyd come right back.. the last time they came back we were visiting him and my great aunt and it was mentioned about my warts .. as i was very embarrassed by them.. he told me to come over there.. and he toutched my wart covered hand and toutched my nose.. and he prayed something ..it was very low barely a whisper and i couldnt understand what he was saying.. when he was done he said do you believe? and i said yea ,although half heartedly...
it was a few weeks later i happend to see that they were gone .. completely and have never came back.. praise GOD..
so see folks youre gonna be mighty hard pressed to convince someone who has the gifts or has witnessed or personally experienced the gifts of tongues or healings or miracles that they dont exist today.. specially when we know all the other gifts are still being given out today as well. as of right now i dont know of anything else i can add to this discussion..
