(or BBCM...gotta use acronyms...they're the only thing short about this post, lol)
List of accusations/explanations
1). THE ATONEMENT IS NOT COMPLETE
The sanctuary system was to point to the sacrifice and work of Jesus as our savior and high priest. Did the service stop at the sacrifice? No. After the sacrifice the high priest would take the blood of the offering into the holy place every day for the forgiveness of sin. And then once a year on the day of atonement, he would move to the most holy. The atonement is complete right before Jesus comes back.
Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
Hebrews 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Jesus is our perfect High Priest and sacrifice. The old testament sacrificial system was all a type of Jesus work. And it isn't over. We would all be in heaven right now if it was.
2). BELIEVERS ENTER INTO A JUDGMENT OF WORKS WHICH DETERMINES THEIR SALVATION
2 Corinthians 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad"
Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
James 2:8-11
If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said, also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Luke 13:6-9
He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Luke 3:9
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
John 5:28-29
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Matthew 16:26-27
26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."
�But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death� (James 1:14,15).
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
The bible is full of verses that say stuff like that. Seems like we will be judged by our works. Thankfully God's grace covers our bad works if we choose Him.
3). WORKS PLUS GRACE EQUALS SALVATION
some of the verses above apply down here too.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
After we are saved by grace through faith, we must work or our christian life is dead. If our christian life is dead are we going to heaven? Maybe. I want to at least try to do everything God asks me. Your problem with this comes from what I believe is a twisted doctrine. Once saved, always saved. The bible doesn't support it. And even if it does, you still say there are people that are the stony ground, or the ones that are choked by weeds. They appear to be christians but they aren't really. How...do...you...know...that...isn't...you? You don't. Not honestly anyway. I don't either. But I have hope, not presumption.
4). SATAN BEARS OUR SINS
Sanctuary service again. What happens on the day of atonement? Two goats are chosen. One is the Lord's goat. One is the scape-goat. One is sacrificed for sin, the other bears the responsibility. Which one represents Jesus? Jesus is innocent. Jesus died for our sins. He paid the price, but he does not bear the responsibility. He never sinned. Satan bears the responsibility of our sin. He will be lead away into the wilderness to die, like the scape-goat. It will be shown that sin was his fault. That is why he is going about as a roaring lion. He wants to cause as many as possible to be lost, so that his punishment will be lessened. He doesn't want to suffer for your sin like Jesus did. He knows he has lost, he's just trying to hurt God and spare himself some pain.
5). CHRISTIANS WILL STAND BEFORE GOD WITHOUT CHRIST'S INTERCESSION
But the people were not yet ready to meet their Lord. There was still a work of preparation to be accomplished for
them. Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealed. Another message of warning and instruction was to be given to the church. Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. Besides the coming of the Lord to His temple, Malachi also foretells His second advent, His coming for the execution of the judgment, in these words: "And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not Me, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 3:5. Jude refers to the same scene when he says, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15. This coming, and the coming of the Lord to His temple, are distinct and separate events. The coming of Christ as our high priest to the most holy place, for the cleansing of the sanctuary, brought to view in Daniel 8:14; the coming of the Son of man to the Ancient of Days, as presented in Daniel 7:13; and the coming of the Lord to His temple, foretold by Malachi, are descriptions of the same event; and this is also represented by the coming of the bridegroom to the marriage, described by Christ in the parable of the ten virgins, of Matthew 25. In the summer and autumn of 1844 the proclamation, "Behold, the Bridegroom cometh," was given. The two classes represented by the wise and foolish virgins were then developed--one class who looked with joy to the Lord's appearing, and who had been diligently preparing to meet Him; another class that, influenced by fear and acting from impulse, had been satisfied with a theory of the truth, but were destitute of the grace of God. In the parable, when the bridegroom came, "they that were ready went in with him to the marriage." The coming of the bridegroom, here brought to view, takes place before the marriage. The marriage represents the reception by Christ of His kingdom. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the capital and representative of the kingdom, is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife." Said the angel to John: "Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." "He carried me away in the spirit," says the prophet, "and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God." Revelation 21:9, 10.
She says "with the grace of God", "With the sprinkling of blood", "with diligent effort". Is there something about God's grace making us perfect that is unbiblical? Is there any place in the bible that tells us we don't have to avoid sin? I don't see the problem unless you believe in "once saved".
Saith the Lord: "They have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace." "With lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life." Jeremiah 8:11; Ezekiel 13:22
Once saved always saved?
6). WE CAN BE SINLESS
Same as #5. In order to have Adams previous condition, we would have to keep all of the commandments. We will be sinless in heaven. We are supposed to cease from sin. Thankfully God's grace covers our ignorance and our mistakes. If you don't know it is sin, then you aren't accountable under grace. If you make a mistake and repent, then it will be forgiven as long as you are truly repentant and continue to honestly strive against sin. God's grace is sufficient. As long as we are under grace then we are "perfect". Willful sin would cause us to fall out of grace.
7). THE SABBATH IS THE SEAL OF GOD AND THOSE WORSHIPING ON SUNDAY WILL RECIEVE THE MARK OF THE BEAST
It is a fact generally admitted by Protestants that the Scriptures give no authority for the change of the Sabbath. This is plainly stated in publications issued by the American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union. One of these works acknowledges �the complete silence of the New Testament so far as any explicit command for the Sabbath [Sunday, the first day of the week] or definite rules for its observance are concerned.��George Elliott, The Abiding Sabbath, page 184. . . .
Roman Catholics acknowledge that the change of the Sabbath was made by their church, and declare that Protestants by observing the Sunday are recognizing her power. In the Catholic Catechism of Christian Religion, in answer to a question as to the day to be observed in obedience to the fourth commandment, this statement is made: �During the old law, Saturday was the day sanctified; but the church, instructed by Jesus Christ, and directed by the Spirit of God, has substituted Sunday for Saturday; so now we sanctify the first, not the seventh day. Sunday means, and now is, the day of the Lord.�
As the sign of the authority of the Catholic Church, papist writers cite �the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; . . . because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church�s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin.��Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, page 58. What then is the change of the Sabbath, but the sign, or mark, of the authority of the Roman Church��the mark of the beast�?
The Roman Church has not relinquished her claim to supremacy; and when the world and the Protestant churches accept a sabbath of her creating, while they reject the Bible Sabbath, they virtually admit this assumption. They may claim the authority of tradition and of the Fathers for the change; but in so doing they ignore the very principle which separates them from Rome�that �the Bible, and the Bible only, is the religion of Protestants.� . . .
Romanists declare that �the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.��Mgr. Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, page 213.
The Great Controversy, pp. 447-448
In the movements now in progress in the United States to secure for the institutions and usages of the church the support of the state, Protestants are following in the steps of papists. Nay, more, they are opening the door for the papacy to regain in Protestant America the supremacy which she has lost in the Old World. And that which gives greater significance to this movement is the fact that the principal object contemplated is the enforcement of Sunday observance�a custom which originated with Rome, and which she claims as the sign of her authority. It is the spirit of the papacy�the spirit of conformity to worldly customs, the veneration for human traditions above the commandments of God�that is permeating the Protestant churches and leading them on to do the same work of Sunday exaltation which the papacy has done before them.
If the reader would understand the agencies to be employed in the soon-coming contest, he has but to trace the record of the means which Rome employed for the same object in ages past. If he would know how papists and Protestants united will deal with those who reject their dogmas, let him see the spirit which Rome manifested toward the Sabbath and its defenders.
The Great Controversy, pp. 573-574
With Protestant teachers there is the same claim of divine authority for Sundaykeeping, and the same lack of Scriptural evidence, as with the papal leaders who fabricated miracles to supply the place of a command from God. The assertion that God�s judgments are visited upon men for their violation of the Sunday-sabbath, will be repeated; already it is beginning to be urged. And a movement to enforce Sunday observance is fast gaining ground.
Marvelous in her shrewdness and cunning is the Roman Church. She can read what is to be. She bides her time, seeing that the Protestant churches are paying her homage in their acceptance of the false sabbath and that they are preparing to enforce it by the very means which she herself employed in bygone days. Those who reject the light of truth will yet seek the aid of this self-styled infallible power to exalt an institution that originated with her. How readily she will come to the help of Protestants in this work it is not difficult to conjecture. Who understands better than the papal leaders how to deal with those who are disobedient to the church? . . .
And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And had she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. Protestants little know what they are doing when they propose to accept the aid of Rome in the work of Sunday exaltation. While they are bent upon the accomplishment of their purpose, Rome is aiming to re-establish her power, to recover her lost supremacy. Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured.
God�s word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare.
The Great Controversy, pp. 579-581
As the controversy extends into new fields and the minds of the people are called to God�s downtrodden law, Satan is astir. The power attending the message will only madden those who oppose it. The clergy will put forth almost superhuman efforts to shut away the light lest it should shine upon their flocks. By every means at their command they will endeavor to suppress the discussion of these vital questions. The church appeals to the strong arm of civil power, and, in this work, papists and Protestants unite. As the movement for Sunday enforcement becomes more bold and decided, the law will be invoked against commandment keepers. They will be threatened with fines and imprisonment, and some will be offered positions of influence, and other rewards and advantages, as inducements to renounce their faith. But their steadfast answer is: �Show us from the word of God our error��the same plea that was made by Luther under similar circumstances. Those who are arraigned before the courts make a strong vindication of the truth, and some who hear them are led to take their stand to keep all the commandments of God.
The Great Controversy, p. 607
As the Sabbath has become the special point of controversy throughout Christendom, and religious and secular authorities have combined to enforce the observance of the Sunday, the persistent refusal of a small minority to yield to the popular demand will make them objects of universal execration. It will be urged that the few who stand in opposition to an institution of the church and a law of the state ought not to be tolerated; that it is better for them to suffer than for whole nations to be thrown into confusion and lawlessness. The same argument eighteen hundred years ago was brought against Christ by the �rulers of the people.� �It is expedient for us,� said the wily Caiaphas, �that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.� John 11:50. This argument will appear conclusive; and a decree will finally be issued against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment and giving the people liberty, after a certain time, to put them to death. Romanism in the Old World and apostate Protestantism in the New will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts.
The Great Controversy, pp. 615-616
Men in responsible positions will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath themselves, but from the sacred desk, will urge upon the people the observance of the first day of the week, pleading tradition and custom in behalf of this man-made institution. They will point to calamities on land and sea�to the storms of wind, the floods, the earthquakes, the destruction by fire�as judgments indicating God's displeasure because Sunday is not sacredly observed.�Signs of the Times, January 17, 1884
In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. . . .
And then the great deceiver will persuade men that those who serve God are causing these evils. The class that have provoked the displeasure of Heaven will charge all their troubles upon those whose obedience to God's commandments is a perpetual reproof to transgressors. It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of the Sunday sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced; and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people, preventing their restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity.�Great Controversy, pp. 589, 590
The class that have provoked the displeasure of Heaven will charge all their troubles upon those whose obedience to God's commandments is a perpetual reproof to transgressors. . . . Thus the accusation urged of old against the servant of God will be repeated and upon grounds equally well established: "And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel? And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim." 1 Kings 18:17, 18.�Great Controversy, p. 590
Here's a quote from a protestant minister. In February of 2005, various media outlets, like WorldNetDaily.com, picked up a story about the comments of John MacLeod, a prominent minister of the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland. You can read his comments firsthand in the February issue of his church's magazine, posted on FPChurch.org.uk. Here is what John MacLeod has to say about the reason God allowed the tsunami to wipe out more than 200,000 lives:
"Does He not reveal the reason why, in the days of Noah, He brought in the flood upon "the world of the ungodly" and, later on, why He rained fire and brimstone from heaven upon Sodom, where they were "wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly"? Do not worldliness, materialism, hedonism, uncleanness and pleasure-seeking characterize our own generation to a great extent and does not this solemn visitation in providence remind us that He remains the same God still? "No calamity happens, except through God" is Calvin's paraphrase of the scripture: "Shall there be evil in a city and the Lord has not done it?" . . . In other words, He is no idle spectator of what is happening here in time and He treats men with "sharpness and severity" in order that they "may know their vices". Some of the places most affected by this tsunami attracted pleasure-seekers from all over the world. It has to be noted that the wave arrived on the Lord's Day, the day that God has set apart to be observed the world over by a holy resting from all employments and recreations that are lawful on other days. We cannot but fear that it found multitudes unprepared for the eternity into which they were ushered so suddenly and without warning. There is much sorrow over those who perished and much sympathy for those that survived, especially for the bereaved and the destitute � and rightly so. But, as far we are able to judge, there has been, as yet, little acknowledgment of the hand of God in the matter and no evidence of repentance."
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This one is true, but it only applys to the end of time. Right before Jesus comes. There will be a test of God true believers. The test is going to be the commandments of God. It will be painfully obvious at that time that Sunday is not God's day. Anybody that rejects it then will be in the wrong camp. The Adventist church believes that the majority of true Christians do not keep the 4th commandment. But the point is...when they see what is happening in the last days, they will choose to keep it. They won't become Adventists...but all true Christians will be united at the end by keeping all of the commandments, whether it's on purpose or not. The "remnant church". The "leftovers" of God's people. The true Sunday-keeping Christians that have died before the test will still be saved, even if they did keep Sunday. It's not a salvation issue unless you know it's the truth and refuse to follow it. Everyone who follows the truth they have will be saved. It's a issue of habit. If God's knows they will keep all His truth that they have received...then He knows they will keep any new truth He would show them in the future.
8). SOUL SLEEP
9). A DENIAL OF THE BIBLICAL DOCTRINE OF HELL
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. ... For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.
John 5:28, 29 All that are in the grave shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.
Acts 2:34 . For David is not ascended into the heavens.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Ezekiel 18:4 . The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 . We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ... and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
John 11:11, 14 . Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; ... Lazarus is dead.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
2 Samuel 7:12 Thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 Them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The Saved /
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The Unsaved /
2 Peter 2:6 . And turning the cities of sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.
John 12:48 . The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to ... reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.
Matthew 13:40-42 So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather ... them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.
John 5:28, 29 . The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the dead shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; ... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Job 21:30, 32 The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. ... Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Psalms 37:10, 20 . For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be. ... But the wicked shall perish, ... into smoke shall they consume away.
Malachi 4:1, 3 The day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; ... and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up. ... And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.
Revelation 20:9 . They went up on the breadth of the city, and compassed the camp of the saints about, ... and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
2 Peter 3:10 The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Isaiah 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
Matthew 10:28 Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
When it talks about unquenchable fire it just means that no one will put it out. Doesn't mean that it won't go out when there isn't anything left to burn. The garbage pit outside of Jerusalem was compared to hell with unquenchable fire. It's not there anymore. Sodom and Gomorrah aren't still burning. The unsaved are not tortured forever and ever throughout eternity. They are punished each according to his works. And then it's over. God will destroy evil when the city of God rests on this earth. The unsaved will be resurrected and punished right there. Then God will make everything new. You say they are there right now. Before God even judges them. Cain has been burning 6,000 years longer then Hitler? Cain killed one man. Hitler was responsible for millions. Sound just? Nope. God says we will be judged according to our works. It's not just because it's not true. Do you believe Satan looks like a little red devil with a pitchfork? Pagan belief? No? But that's quite a few scriptures that disagree with your belief anyway. You say the righteous dead are in heaven looking down on us. God says the dead know nothing done under the sun. You say we have an immortal soul? God says fear not the ones that can destroy the body, but fear the One that can destroy both body and soul in hell. Just food for thought. This is what I believe. I see a ton of biblical support for my belief. And I see a ton of pagan support for yours. Just because it's old doesn't make it true. How happy would you be in heaven or on the new earth..knowing that your sweet slightly good grandma that didn't believe in God, is burning FOR ALL ETERNITY WITHOUT END? I don't think I could handle 60 seconds of fiery torture without passing out. How about a year? How about 100 years? A billion years? Eternity is only just beginning after a billion years. 1 billion down...um...billions upon billions to go. God will judge us and reward/punish us according to our works. Hitler is going to burn longer than Cain. Satan is going to burn the longest.
-------Great Controversy Chapter 41 pg. 658
Now the event takes place foreshadowed in the last solemn service of the Day of Atonement. When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, then the scapegoat was presented alive before the Lord; and in the presence of the congregation the high priest confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat." Leviticus 16:21. In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness. {GC 658.1}
The revelator foretells the banishment of Satan and the condition of chaos and desolation to which the earth is to be reduced, and he declares that this condition will exist for a thousand years. After presenting the scenes of the Lord's second coming and the destruction of the wicked, the prophecy continues: "I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." Revelation 20:1-3. {GC 658.2}
That the expression "bottomless pit" represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness is evident from other scriptures. Concerning the condition of the earth "in the beginning," the Bible record says that it "was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." [THE HEBREW WORD HERE TRANSLATED "DEEP" IS RENDERED IN THE SEPTUAGINT (GREEK) TRANSLATION OF THE HEBREW OLD TESTAMENT BY THE SAME WORD RENDERED "BOTTOMLESS PIT" IN REVELATION 20:1-3.]
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Genesis 1:2. Prophecy teaches that it will be brought back, partially at least, to this condition. Looking forward to the great day of God, the prophet Jeremiah declares: "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down." Jeremiah 4:23-26. {GC 658.3}
Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound: there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight. {GC 659.1}
The prophet Isaiah, looking forward to the time of Satan's overthrow, exclaims: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! . . . Thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the Most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; that made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?" Isaiah 14:12-17. {GC 659.2}
For six thousand years, Satan's work of rebellion has "made the earth to tremble." He had "made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof." And he "opened not the house of his prisoners." For six thousand years his prison house has received God's people, and he would have held them captive forever; but Christ had broken his bonds and set the prisoners free.
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{GC 659.3}
Even the wicked are now placed beyond the power of Satan, and alone with his evil angels he remains to realize the effect of the curse which sin has brought. "The kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, everyone in his own house [the grave]. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch. . . . Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people." Isaiah 14:18-20. {GC 660.1}
For a thousand years, Satan will wander to and fro in the desolate earth to behold the results of his rebellion against the law of God. During this time his sufferings are intense. Since his fall his life of unceasing activity has banished reflection; but he is now deprived of his power and left to contemplate the part which he has acted since first he rebelled against the government of heaven, and to look forward with trembling and terror to the dreadful future when he must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for the sins that he has caused to be committed. {GC 660.2}
To God's people the captivity of Satan will bring gladness and rejoicing. Says the prophet: "It shall come to pass in the day that Jehovah shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy trouble, and from the hard service wherein thou wast made to serve, that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon [here representing Satan], and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! . . . Jehovah hath broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers; that smote the peoples in wrath with a continual stroke, that ruled the nations in anger, with a persecution that none restrained." Verses 3-6, R.V. {GC 660.3}
During the thousand years between the first and the second resurrection the judgment of the wicked takes place. The apostle Paul points to this judgment as an event that follows the second advent. "Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of
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the hearts." 1 Corinthians 4:5. Daniel declares that when the Ancient of Days came, "judgment was given to the saints of the Most High." Daniel 7:22. At this time the righteous reign as kings and priests unto God. John in the Revelation says: "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them." "They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Revelation 20:4, 6. It is at this time that, as foretold by Paul, "the saints shall judge the world." 1 Corinthians 6:2. In union with Christ they judge the wicked, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Bible, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then the portion which the wicked must suffer is meted out, according to their works; and it is recorded against their names in the book of death. {GC 660.4}
Satan also and evil angels are judged by Christ and His people. Says Paul: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" Verse 3. And Jude declares that "the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude 6. {GC 661.1}
At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead and appear before God for the execution of "the judgment written." Thus the revelator, after describing the resurrection of the righteous, says: "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5. And Isaiah declares, concerning the wicked: "They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22. {GC 661.2}
-----Great controversy Chapter 42 pg. 667
And now before the swaying multitude are revealed the final scenes--the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging upon the cross; the haughty priests and the jeering rabble deriding His expiring agony; the supernatural darkness; the heaving earth, the rent rocks, the open graves, marking the moment when the world's Redeemer yielded up His life. {GC 667.1}
The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work. Each actor recalls the part which he performed. Herod, who slew the innocent children of Bethlehem that he might destroy the King of Israel; the base Herodias, upon whose guilty soul rests the blood of John the Baptist; the weak, timeserving Pilate; the mocking soldiers; the priests and rulers and the maddened throng who cried, "His blood be on us, and on our children!"--all behold the enormity of their guilt. They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun, while the redeemed cast their crowns at the Saviour's feet, exclaiming: "He died for me!" {GC 667.2}
Amid the ransomed throng are the apostles of Christ, the heroic Paul, the ardent Peter, the loved and loving John, and their truehearted brethren, and with them the vast host of martyrs; while outside the walls, with every vile and abominable thing, are those by whom they were persecuted, imprisoned, and slain. There is Nero, that monster of cruelty and vice, beholding the joy and exaltation of those whom he once tortured, and in whose extremest anguish he found satanic delight. His mother is there to witness the result of
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her own work; to see how the evil stamp of character transmitted to her son, the passions encouraged and developed by her influence and example, have borne fruit in crimes that caused the world to shudder. {GC 667.3}
There are papist priests and prelates, who claimed to be Christ's ambassadors, yet employed the rack, the dungeon, and the stake to control the consciences of His people. There are the proud pontiffs who exalted themselves above God and presumed to change the law of the Most High. Those pretended fathers of the church have an account to render to God from which they would fain be excused. Too late they are made to see that the Omniscient One is jealous of His law and that He will in no wise clear the guilty. They learn now that Christ identifies His interest with that of His suffering people; and they feel the force of His own words: "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me." Matthew 25:40. {GC 668.1}
The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}
It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion. The far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory was despised when offered them; but how desirable it now appears. "All this," cries the lost soul, "I might have had; but I chose to put these things far from me. Oh, strange infatuation! I have exchanged peace, happiness, and honor for wretchedness, infamy, and despair." All see that their exclusion from heaven is just. By their lives they have declared: "We will not have this Man [Jesus] to reign over us." {GC 668.3}
As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law, the statutes which they have despised and
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transgressed. They witness the outburst of wonder, rapture, and adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the multitudes without the city, all with one voice exclaim, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints" (Revelation 15:3); and, falling prostrate, they worship the Prince of life. {GC 668.4}
Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, "son of the morning;" how changed, how degraded! From the council where once he was honored, he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. He has seen the crown placed upon the head of Christ by an angel of lofty stature and majestic presence, and he knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his. {GC 669.1}
Memory recalls the home of his innocence and purity, the peace and content that were his until he indulged in murmuring against God, and envy of Christ. His accusations, his rebellion, his deceptions to gain the sympathy and support of the angels, his stubborn persistence in making no effort for self-recovery when God would have granted him forgiveness --all come vividly before him. He reviews his work among men and its results--the enmity of man toward his fellow man, the terrible destruction of life, the rise and fall of kingdoms, the overturning of thrones, the long succession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions. He recalls his constant efforts to oppose the work of Christ and to sink man lower and lower. He sees that his hellish plots have been powerless to destroy those who have put their trust in Jesus. As Satan looks upon his kingdom, the fruit of his toil, he sees only failure and ruin. He has led the multitudes to believe that the City of God would be an easy prey; but he knows that this is false. Again and again, in the progress of the great controversy, he has been defeated and compelled to yield. He knows too well the power and majesty of the Eternal.
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{GC 669.2}
The aim of the great rebel has ever been to justify himself and to prove the divine government responsible for the rebellion. To this end he has bent all the power of his giant intellect. He has worked deliberately and systematically, and with marvelous success, leading vast multitudes to accept his version of the great controversy which has been so long in progress. For thousands of years this chief of conspiracy has palmed off falsehood for truth. But the time has now come when the rebellion is to be finally defeated and the history and character of Satan disclosed. In his last great effort to dethrone Christ, destroy His people, and take possession of the City of God, the archdeceiver has been fully unmasked. Those who have united with him see the total failure of his cause. Christ's followers and the loyal angels behold the full extent of his machinations against the government of God. He is the object of universal abhorrence. {GC 670.1}
Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of heaven would be to him supreme torture. His accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced. The reproach which he has endeavored to cast upon Jehovah rests wholly upon himself. And now Satan bows down and confesses the justice of his sentence. {GC 670.2}
"Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest." Verse 4. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy has now been made plain. The results of rebellion, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, have been laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The working out of Satan's rule in contrast with the government of God has been presented to the whole universe. Satan's own works have condemned him. God's wisdom, His justice, and His goodness stand fully vindicated. It is seen that all His dealings in the great controversy have been conducted
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with respect to the eternal good of His people and the good of all the worlds that He has created. "All Thy works shall praise Thee, O Lord; and Thy saints shall bless Thee." Psalm 145:10. The history of sin will stand to all eternity as a witness that with the existence of God's law is bound up the happiness of all the beings He has created. With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints." {GC 670.3}
Before the universe has been clearly presented the great sacrifice made by the Father and the Son in man's behalf. The hour has come when Christ occupies His rightful position and is glorified above principalities and powers and every name that is named. It was for the joy that was set before Him--that He might bring many sons unto glory--that He endured the cross and despised the shame. And inconceivably great as was the sorrow and the shame, yet greater is the joy and the glory. He looks upon the redeemed, renewed in His own image, every heart bearing the perfect impress of the divine, every face reflecting the likeness of their King. He beholds in them the result of the travail of His soul, and He is satisfied. Then, in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He declares: "Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages." And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12. {GC 671.1}
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King
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of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething
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lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}
While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.
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{GC 673.3}
"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}
Ok...this is getting long so....break time....sorry guys, thats a lot of reading...
**6. Do Seventh-day Adventists teach Jesus is Michael the Archangel?**
I believe "Michael" is just another name for Jesus. This article does an excellent job of explaining it. I do not believe Jesus is "a created angel", like Jehovah's witnesses do. The bible says that Jesus is the presence of God. He is the "messenger" between God and human. He is the divine Son of God. He is God. You're kinda assuming that an "angel" is some kind of specific race, instead of just a "messenger"
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
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**6. Do Seventh-day Adventists teach Jesus is Michael the Archangel?**
The name Michael has an important meaning as well, it means: (one) who is like God. The computer lexicon describes Michael as: one of, the chief, or the first archangel who is described as the one who stands in time of conflict for the children of Israel. In the new Testament, Michael is described as: the first of the chief princes or archangels who is supposed to be the guardian angel of the Israelites.
12. Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:12-13
20. Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. Daniel 10: 20-21
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:1-3
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Revelation 12:7-12
No, I do not think Jesus is a created being. Some would have you believe that Jesus is just a created being, that he is the first one to be created. They believe that he was an angel who was elevated to the position of, possibly a lesser god.
We need to understand what the Bible says. Jesus is Divine just like the Father. Also Jesus said He was the Son of God several times. The Jews understood Him clearly, they saw that Jesus was saying He was equal with God so they picked up stones to stone Him!
Jesus also accepted worship when He was on earth! Even the angels in Heaven did not do this. In the last book of the Bible, John was stopped from worshiping an angel who was in front of him: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Revelation 19:10) Yet many times, Jesus accepted the worship of those around Him.
The Ten Commandment specifically says: You shall have no other gods before Me. Exodus 20:3. It also says: You shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God Exodus 20:5 (first part). Now, if Jesus was not God, He would be causing others to sin as well by not stopping this worship of Him. Jesus would be an enemy of God.
Satan is the one who wants to be worshiped as if he were God. That makes Satan the enemy of God, because Satan wants to take God's glory for himself!
So, this idea that Jesus is not God cannot be true! We know that Jesus is God with the Father. That is why He accepts worship. On the other hand, the angels in Heaven certainly do not accept worship at all.
I believe that Jesus came to die for our sins and that we are saved through the shedding of His Blood. An angel could not do this for us. These are the very central pillars of our Christian Faith!
So, with this thought in mind, that Jesus is not a created being, but that He is fully divine as is the Father, let's get back to Michael. I have been looking at the statements on Michael and I see evidence that suggests that Jesus could have been known as Michael in heaven, before He came to Earth as Christ.
The word angel merely means messenger. Archangel merely means chief of the angels. So many times in the old testament, The Angel of the Lord comes, yet when we read the text a little closer, we see that it is really God! It is not an angel at all but it is God!
Could this be Jesus?
In trying to make sense of all these texts (that you will see below), I have come to the conclusion that when the word angel is used that it does not have to mean the created race of beings that we know to be called Angels.
We know that there was a war in Heaven and that 1/3 of the angels were kicked out with Lucifer. Today, we know them as the evil angels of Satan, or demons.
Why would Satan want to attack God? Did he not respond to God's love? What about the angels who listened to Satan? Did Satan lie about God? When we realize that this happened in heaven, we might wonder why these fallen angels believed Satan. I think it extremely possible that it became necessary for Jesus to act as a go between in Heaven for the angels, much like He has for us on this Earth. so that Michael could show the Father to the angels.
However no matter how strange this idea is, don't for one moment think that I believe Jesus is a created being! Or that I think Jesus was an angel that later was elevated to a lesser god status. Jesus is fully Divine as is His Father. He is the Son of God! Let's not forget that!
I am just wondering. Could it be that we are seeing the activities of Jesus before the New Testament when we look to Michael? Is the Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Could His name, in the past in Heaven, be Michael?
I'm curious how you fit all these Bible Texts together to make sense? Please, look at the Scripture that I have and then, if you are able, give me another possible answer for all these Bible Texts.
So now I will ask you the same question again, now that you know that I am NOT saying that Jesus is just an angel or a created being.
Is it possible that Michael could be part of the Godhead? In other words, is Jesus Divine? Could Michael even be Jesus Christ? In the Jewish literature, Michael is described as the highest of the angels and identify him as the angel of Yahweh which is often mentioned in the Old Testament as a divine being.
In fact I have found that many Bible scholars, such as Charles Spurgeon and Matthew Henry, actually identify Michael as being Christ, the Son of God.
In the New Testament Michael is easily identified as being Jesus, when a few texts are compared. Let's do a comparison right now:
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
In Thessalonians we see that the Lord is descending from heaven and He is shouting with the voice of the archangel. Most people seem to think that it is the archangel that is shouting and not Jesus. Actually there are two possible meanings to the text: (1) the archangel could be shouting for Jesus; or (2) Jesus could be doing the shouting Himself and he is using the voice of an archangel because He is the Archangel.
Now lets see what Christ said when He was on Earth.
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27. And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:25-29
If we compare the two Bible texts above (1 Thessalonians 4:16 and John 5:25-28) we see one of the strongest cases for supporting the idea that Michael is Jesus.
We saw that there were two possible meanings to: "the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice" 1 Thessalonians 4:16. They are: (1) the archangel could be shouting for Jesus; or (2) Jesus could be doing the shouting Himself and he is using the voice of an archangel because He is the Archangel.
Which one is it?
John 5:25,28 solves the problem: "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God". So in 1 Thessalonians, its the archangel's voice, but in John 5, it is the voice of the Son of God! One cannot be wrong and the other right. Michael the Archangel must be Jesus!
Now that we know that it is Jesus Himself who is doing the shouting, we can read 1 Thessalonians 4:16 with new eyes. What 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is really saying, is that Jesus descends from heaven shouting with the voice of the Archangel. This comparison shows that the Archangel really is Jesus.
Also, in both Thessalonians and John we see that the voice causes the resurrection of life. The dead in Christ will rise when they hear His voice! This is the same event and Jesus and Michael must be the same person.
Let's look in the Old Testament for some more evidence. In the book of Joshua, we see that Joshua also saw Michael the Archangel:
13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15. And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Joshua 5:13-15
This account in the book of Joshua is very interesting because we can now "nail down" who Joshua saw. Joshua met the captain of the Lord's host and we find that it is God. Joshua worshiped Him, and He did not stop Joshua in his worship. This is significant.
In Revelation, when John tried to worship an angel, the angel told him not to do that: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10) We are only to worship God!
So, what Joshua saw was God Himself. Joshua is told that this ground is holy and to take off his shoes. He is in the presence of God. Also, we see that this Being accepted the worship and the reverence that Joshua gave Him. He actually invited Joshua to worship and reverence Him! Angels will not accept worship at all. When John tried to give honor to an angel, the angel stopped him:
We also see that Jesus accepted worship when He was on earth! Many times, Jesus accepted the worship of the people around Him (Matthew 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Hebrews 1:6).
In much of the Old Testament, this Being is identified as the angel of the Lord, but to Joshua, He identifies Himself as the captain of the Lord's Host! Who is that? Who is the captain of the Lord's Host?
In Revelation 12:7 we saw that it is Michael that led the angel forces in Heaven.
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Revelation 12:7
Now we find that the angels in Heaven are Michael's angels and that Michael leads His angels in battle against Satan! So, we can see that Michael is indeed the Captain of the angels. He is their leader.
Putting Joshua 5 and Revelation 12 together, we see that Joshua saw a man who identified Himself as the Captain of the host of the Lord. That man is Michael, who is also God. Also we must remember the meaning of Archangel. Archangel means the chief of the angels. This does not mean that Michael is an angel, but that He is the Chief or Leader of the Angels in Heaven! He is the Chief of the angels! He is their commander, the Commander of the LORD'S army in Heaven, God's angels.
Now, in Revelation 19, we see a very interesting change in the leader of the armies of heaven. Michael will be called by a different name.
11. Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11-14
We now see in verse 13 that it is The Word of God who leads the armies of heaven! From John 1:1 we read: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So, the Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is leading the armies of heaven!
Before in Revelation 12 we saw that it was Michael who was leading the army of angels. Now in Revelation 19 it is Jesus. Why?
Things have changed. Jesus now has aspects of Himself that did not even exist before He came to the earth. Jesus now has a new name which no one knows: Revelation 3:12 "And I will write on him My new name." and in Revelation 19:12 "He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.".
His description is also changed. He is now called "Faithful and True" (see Revelation 3:14). And His robe is dipped in blood. This is indeed Jesus. and He is identified in a way that reflects what He has done for us.
We can also see that Jesus now has eyes like a flame of fire [Isaiah 66:15] and He also has many crowns on His head.
15. For behold, the LORD will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16. For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many. Isaiah 66:15-16.
These descriptions show that Jesus has now been given authority to combat Satan and to judge all flesh.
So, what is it that makes this change in Jesus? Obviously, His dying on the Cross. But also, there is a court session in heaven that is to take place when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet. At that time Satan's dominion will be taken away from him, and Jesus Himself is the one who will lead the armies of Heaven to judge and make war against Satan.
26. But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his [Satan's] dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. Daniel 7:26.
When the Seventh Trumpet sounds, the court in heaven will decide to give everything to The Father and Jesus.
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Revelation 11:15-18
So, it will not be until the Seventh Trumpet sounds that the Kingdom of God will also include the kingdoms of this world, in other words, the earth. At that time, Jesus will reign for ever and ever and all the angels of heaven will rejoice because Jesus has taken His great power and has finally began to reign.
Following on in Revelation 19, we see that in verses 14, 19, and 20; the army of heaven is indeed His army.
14. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
19. And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:14, 19-21
Satan gathers together all his armies to battle against Jesus and His army in the final battle in the time of the end. This is when Satan is utterly defeated and all those who follow Satan are either placed alive in the lake of fire or they are killed with the sword (Rev 19:21). (In Revelation chapter 20, we see that Satan is bound for 1000 years before he is completely destroyed.)
So, In Joshua 5 and Revelation 12 we saw that Michael is the chief of the angels. He is the leader of the armies of angels in heaven. But in Revelation 19 we saw that it is Jesus Himself who leads the armies of heaven against Satan and his armies. It is the same person. Its just that Michael/Jesus has a new name.
Remember that we already saw that "the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice" 1 thessalonians 4:16 and we also saw that "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God" John 5:25..
So when Jesus comes to reward His sleeping saints He will shout with a voice that is identified as both that of the archangel and that of the Son of God.
Jesus destroys Satan at the same time He brings back the righteous dead to life.
30. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31.
This all shows that Michael the Archangel must be Jesus and is fully divine. He is also the chief of the angels, or the captain of the host of the Lord. He is the one who leads the angels to victory and destroy Satan and his dominion!
The Angel of the Lord
Let's look at this subject from another angle. Jesus is called the Word of God:
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14
So Jesus must be the one who speaks to us, since He is the Word. Then He became a man and lived among us.
18. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18
It is Jesus who has declared the Father. This makes sense since He is the Word of God. He is the one who expresses the thoughts of God. Also, which is interesting; No one has seen God (the Father) at any time. If no one has ever seen the Father, then it must have been Jesus, or Michael who was seen by Moses and the others throughout history.
When Steven was brought before the Jewish Leaders in the Sanhedrin, just before he was stoned; Stephen started telling the story of their fathers. In that story, he says that Moses talked with the Angel on Mount Sinai.
37. "This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, 'The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear'.
38. "This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, Acts 7:37-38.
Stephen's story agrees with John 1:18 in the specific example of Moses, saying that Moses actually talked to the Angel or Michael the Archangel on Mount Sinai.
Look at this text:
10. Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11. searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11.
In the text above, we find that it was the Spirit of Christ that was in them. It was His spirit, the Spirit of Christ that inspired the prophets in the times of the Old Testament.
So, if the Spirit of Christ had inspired the prophets of the Old Testament, then it makes very good sense when John says that Jesus declares the Father to the world. After all, Jesus is the word of God! If Jesus has been the one who has communicated with man then we can see why "No one has seen God at any time".
Early on, in the Exodus, God promised to send an Angel to go before them.
20. Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
21. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. Exodus 23:20-21
So, this Angel has God's name. He has the name of Jehovah or Yahweh (YHWH) because God's name is in Him.
Now Paul just comes out with it and tells us that this Angel is Jesus!
1. Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2. all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3. all ate the same spiritual food,
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.
That Rock was Christ. Who is Paul talking about? Let's go to Exodus and find specifically who it is that Paul is referring to, because I have always thought that the angel led them. He didn't follow the camp of Israel, did He?
19. And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
20. So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.
21. Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided.
22. So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
23. And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh�s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24. Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the LORD looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. Exodus 14:19-24.
Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 is specifically speaking of the crossing of the red sea and of that cloud where God was. So Paul identifies Him as Jesus. Now in Exodus, we see that it is the Angel of God who is in the cloud that went behind to go between the camp of Israel and the Egyptians.
So Paul is clearly saying that the Angel of God is Jesus. When the LORD looks down and causes trouble for the Egyptians, we now know that it was Jesus who did these things because He has God's name in Him.
Isaiah adds to this thought by saying that the Angel of His Presence has saved, redeemed, and carried Israel all throughout the days of old. Isaiah says that this angel became their Savior!
7. I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD And the praises of the LORD, According to all that the LORD has bestowed on us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
8. For He said, "Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie." So He became their Savior.
9. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old. Isaiah 63:7-9
So the angel that has The Father's name in Him, who is also called the Angel of His Presence has always been the Savior of Israel all through the days of old. He has saved, redeemed, and carried them. It is no wonder that Paul identifies Him as being Christ.
These things about the Angel of God help to confirm that it has always been Jesus all along who has led God's people, even through all the days of old.
18. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18
It has been Jesus all along who has lead God's people! And He has been identified as the Angel of God and the Angel of His Presence.
Now, let's get back to God's name, the idea that "My name is in Him". To the Hebrews at the time, it meant, "He is my heir, my descendent, the one who will carry on my legacy" (Examples of this same use of language for heirs of Abraham and others are found in: Gen 48:16, Isa. 66:22, Deut. 25:6-7, 2Sam. 14:7). This idea of having God say: "My name is in Him", agrees with what is written in Hebrews about Jesus:
4. having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5. For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? Hebrews 1:4-5.
Elsewhere, in the Bible, we find that Jesus is the Son of God. He is not a created being, but rather, He is the Son of God. So naturally, Jesus has a more excellent name by inheritance than the angels.
Now, lets look into something that is very interesting, and I think, very powerful. When The Angel of the LORD appears before Manoah and his wife, which are Samson's parents; The Angel of the LORD says something different. He identifies Himself as having a name that is wonderful!
15. Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You."
16. And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)
17. Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?
18. And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?
19. So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on--
20. it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.
21. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
22. And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!"
23. But his wife said to him, "If the LORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Judges 13:15-23
Who's name is it that is wonderful? It is none other than Jesus Christ!
6. For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
The Hebrew word for "wonderful" in Judges 13:18 is the very same Hebrew word for "Wonderful" in isaiah 9:6. The Strong index number is 6382 and it means incomprehensible, beyond our understanding, wonderful.
So The Angel of the LORD says that his name is wonderful. His name is beyond our understanding and it is incomprehensible to us. In Isaiah 9:6, we find that Jesus' name is also incomprehensible and beyond our understanding. Jesus and the Angel of the Lord are described in the same way.
So, the Angel of the LORD's name is wondeful and we know from Exodus 23 that God's name is in Him. Both of these points help us to identify the Angel of the Lord as Jesus because He has a more excellent name. We are actually looking at one who's name is incomprehensible to us and beyond our understanding. We are looking at the Son of God!
We have already seen that He is also called the Angel of God's Presence!
8. For He said, "Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie." So He became their Savior.
9. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old. Isaiah 63:8-9
The description of the Angel of God's Presence describes an activity that is Divine in nature where He became their Savior and was afflicted in all their affliction. In His pity, He redeemed them.
So, this angel was the Angel of God's Presence, the Angel in whom was the Name of the Great GOD, and His name is Wonderful!
In the Jewish literature, Michael is associated with the Angel of the LORD which is often mentioned in the Old Testament as a divine being. Lets look through the Old Testament to see if any further clues can be gathered. You will see many indications showing that the angel of the LORD is indeed God!
Perhaps the best Old Testament source for connecting the angel of the Lord with God is the burning bush experience of Moses:
2. And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
7. And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; Exodus 3:2-7
The angel of the Lord appears before Moses in a burning bush that does not burn up, yet as we read into the experience (above) we see that it is God Himself. Also notice that the same thing that was told Joshua was also told Moses. Both were instructed to take off their shoes since they were now standing on holy ground. It is because they were now in the presence of God! This must be none other than Jesus/Michael the Archangel!
Later, when asked what His name was, He identified Himself as: "I am".
13. Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
14. And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
15. Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.' Exodus 3:13-15
In verse 15 we have a very interesting statement: This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations. In Isaiah, we see that His people will know Him by His name and when He comes, they will know it:
6. "Therefore My people shall know My name; Therefore they shall know in that day That I am He who speaks: 'Behold, it is I.'" Isaiah 52:6
Who is it that is speaking here in Isaiah? When Jesus was saying: Behold, it is I, many rejected Him, but His people knew Him!
When Jesus was on earth, He also identified Himself as "I am".
56. "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57. Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58. Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59. Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59
Jesus used the same name that He used in talking to Moses. Everyone knew Who Jesus was referring to when He said "I AM", and they acted immediately. They picked up stones to stone Him because Jesus was telling them that He is I AM, He is the God of the Old Testament who spoke to the various patriarchs.
Another interesting point is what Jesus said in verse 56. Jesus told the Jews that Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus in His day. He appariently said it in such a way that the Jews realized that Jesus was saying that He knew Abraham personally and had talked with him. They were incredulous: You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
It should be clear that Jesus was actually identifying Himself as the I AM, that it was He who had talked to Abraham and Moses. By saying: I AM, He was specifically quoting the Old Testament. And He knew what would be their reaction, because they knew what "I AM" refered to, and they would not allow themselves to believe that all the prophecies were being fulfilled.
All these Scripture, when put together, help us to realize that the Angel of the LORD is really Jesus. Jesus is I AM. He said that He knew and talked to Abraham and that Abraham knew Him!
Now, in Zechariah 3:1-2, we see another example where the Angel of the Lord is identified as being God. Let's also compare it with Jude 1:9.
The Angel of the LORD Michael the archangel
1. Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.
2. And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"
3. Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.
4. Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, "Take away the filthy garments from him." And to him He said, "See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes."
4. And I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the LORD stood by. Zechariah 3:1-5
9. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude 1:9
In Zechariah, we see Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord. Satan, the accuser, is also present to oppose what the Angel of the Lord is doing. In the second verse, the Angel of the Lord starts speaking to Satan. In this verse The Angel of the Lord is actually called "the LORD". We know that it is not the Father speaking. Why would the Father say: "The Lord rebuke you"? No, it is not the Father. It is the Son! One Lord is speaking of the other Lord.
Jude 1:9 is an interesting parallel which helps to confirm that it is the Angel of the Lord and not the Father who is speaking in Zechariah. Because the Angel of the Lord in Zechariah is doing the very same thing that Michael the archangel does in Jude.
The three things in common that connect Zechariah 3:1-2 and Jude 1:9 are: (1) They are referring to the same person. The Angel of the Lord is Michael the archangel. (2) In both texts, Satan is confronted. (3) Both times, He does not not accuse Satan directly, but he refers the rebuking of Satan to the Father. Both times He says: "the Lord rebuke you". So Satan is approached in the same way.
So we again have the Angel of the Lord as being identified as being the Lord. The Angel of the Lord is shown to be God.
Some use Jude 1:9 to show that Michael and Jesus are not the same individual (Jude 1:9 is more thoroughly discussed at the end of this web page). However we now see that Jude in connection with Zechariah is really an evidence showing that the Angel of the Lord is actually the Lord, it is Jesus.
Jacob also saw and wrestled with a man who turned out to be God:
24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.Genesis 32:24-30
All the rest of the examples are listed below.
10. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
15. And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16. And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17. That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Genesis 22:10-18
It is very interesting that when the Angel of the LORD speaks of God, He speaks in the first person. I will bless thee, I will multiply thy seed, For now I know that you have not withheld your son from me!
Now look at verses 15 and 16. This is extremely important! The angel of the LORD calls to Abraham out of heaven and says: By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD . . I will bless thee and . . . I will multiply thy seed . . . because you have obeyed my voice. Yes, this must be Jesus!
11. And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
12. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.
13. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred. Genesis 31:11-13
In Genesis 28, we see what Jacob bowed.
20. Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on,
21. "so that I come back to my father's house in peace, then the LORD shall be my God.
22. "And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God�s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You." Genesis 28:20-22
So again, the Angel of God speaks in first person and He actually declares Himself as God. He must be Jesus!
19. And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
20. So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night. Exodus 14:19-20
In Exodus 14 we have the Angel of God who goes before the camp of Israel, but in Exodus 13, it is the LORD who goes before them.
21. And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night. 22 He did not take away the pillar of cloud by day or the pillar of fire by night from before the people. Exodus 13:21-22
Here we have evidence showing that The Angel of God is the same as the LORD.
21. And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22. And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
23. And the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the donkey turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the donkey, to turn her into the way.
24. But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
25. And when the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
26. And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
27. And when the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the donkey with a staff.
28. And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
29. And Balaam said unto the donkey, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
30. And the donkey said unto Balaam, Am not I thine donkey, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.
31. Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
32. And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine donkey these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
33. And the donkey saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.
34. And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.
35. And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak. Numbers 22:21-35
1. And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
2. And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
3. Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
4. And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept. Judges 2:1-4
Who brought the Israelites out of Egypt? The Angel of the LORD, Jesus.
11. And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
12. And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
13. And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
14. And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
15. And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.
16. And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
17. And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.
18. Depart not hence, I pray thee, until I come unto thee, and bring forth my present, and set it before thee. And he said, I will tarry until thou come again.
19. And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it.
20. And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
21. Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
22. And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
23. And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die. Judges 6:11-23
Many Adventists agree that these statements are the most shocking ever penned by Ellen White:
But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p. 64
Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men.
A fourth generation Adventist and his wife searches out the truth about the chuch and resigns. An honest heartfelt report on the can of worms they uncovered in their research.
There are now two distinct camps in Adventism. The split became apparent in the late 1970s when pastors of many years' standing began to question their prophetess, Ellen G. White. They began to question her peculiar doctrines which could not be supported fully by the Scriptures. Many were disillusioned by the revelation of her plagiarism, which was very extensive, and documented in the book, "The White Lie" by former SDA pastor, Walter Rea.
When you are deceived by someone whom you believed was a Christian or by an Organization claiming to be speaking for God who is at fault. You or the person who deceived you? What does the bible say on the matter?
"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken but the prophet hath spoken presumptuously thou shalt not be afraid of him" ( Deut 18 :2 2 )
Recounting her 'vision' of Dec, 1844, Ellen speaks of her and Jesus as "In a moment we were winging our way upward�" Seeing this, in the light of her calling Him Michael the Archangel, in Desire of Ages p. 99 & 379; Spiritual Gifts, Va, p.158; and Prophets & Kings, p. 572, one is led to question if she did not, in fact, really view Him as just that-an angel! And if so, what of His deity and bodily resurrection?
"If They Speak not According to this Word" John 4:1 warns .....
---- "test the spirits --- for many false prophets have gone out" One such Bible test is Isa. 8:19+20 "If they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them". Vs 19 says they have a familiar spirit. SDA Believe p.223 says we're to so test Ellen White, who challenged "Are not the positions taken in my writings in harmony with the teachings of Jesus? If not, point it out to me." (Review 9, 6, 1906); stating her work was 'all of God' or 'all of Satan' and no half-way in the matter. We thus test her, compare her writings to the Bible:
Seventh-day Adventists won't tell you they are behind the "Revelation Seminars" they sponsor. They act all" interdenominational" if questioned. Watch out for these SDA outreaches as well: Voice of Prophecy, Faith for Today, It is Written, The Quiet Hour, Amazing Facts etc. They also hide behind Heath oriented shows on the networks, and sponsor stop-smoking clinics etc, all as introductions to Seventh-day Adventism.
Often, the only tip-off that what you are reading originates with them is that it is published by "Pacific Press". They produce bright and colorful Children's books, often seen in medical and dental offices, and of course, unsuspecting Church libraries.
They very much want to be perceived as Evangelical Christians, seeking a place on the ministerial fellowships. All this is good PR for them, but what do they really believe?
"Work out your Salvation" What (work) must I do to be saved?
Cult groups and Christians alike often wonder how much "work" is needed to be counted as righteous before God. They often ask us this question.
Groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses with their endless meetings, door to door ministry, placing their magazines and counting meticulously all the time they spend in these pursuits and efforts, believe that somehow God will approve of their efforts and reward them. They can never be certain that they have "done enough" and always feel driven to do more.
PRESUMPTION "God was speaking through clay. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne." VISIONS OF MRS. E. G. WHITE TESTIMONY 31 p. 63
"When I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have thereby insulted the Spirit of God." E. G. WHITE TESTIMONIES Vol 5 p. 661
The investigative judgment doctrine, peculiar to Seventh-day Adventists, teaches that in fulfillment of Old Testament sanctuary typology, Christ entered into the second apartment of the sanctuary in heaven in 1844 in order to begin a work of "investigative judgment" to see who was worthy of eternal life, both of those still living and those dead.
Most Christians are amazed to learn that SDA teaches that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, but Ellen White said He was Michael, so if they changed this, they'd need to reject her as 'the spirit of prophecy' and they'd not be the remnant church! So now they hold He's both God the Son, and Michael.
It makes a great difference who Jesus really is for 2 Cor 11:4 says, there'll be those who teach another Jesus, preach a different gospel and have another spirit. These marks identify cults, who invariably attack the Doctrine of Christ. Early SDA denied His deity saying He's the archangel. Their Commentary vol 5 p 1129 cites Ellen "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty"
Adventists believe that they are the Only True Religion, the ultimate Christianity After all, aren't they the people who keep all Ten Commandments and have the "Testimony of Jesus" [their prophet Ellen White]
After we first discovered the sordid truth about Ellen White's plagiarism in 1980, we started to research into Adventism's relationship with Christianity. It took years, but by the middle 199O's we felt we had reached the core of this relationship. For Adventist theology is very similar to an onion: it may be shiny and attractive on the outside, but the inner layers become progressively stronger and ranker until they are simply insufferable.
An SDA tried to defend the following EGW position........ A good example of poor logic and misuse of scriptures. Follow the sequence of correspondence and our reply.
Acts 4:12. "Neither is there salvation in any other for there is none other name under heaven given among men. whereby we must be saved."
At certain seasons of the year, we find many religious celebrations being conducted. We find that the natural man wants to be religious and at times will do many things thinking that he is performing an act of worship unto God. But the Word of God teaches that religion is not salvation! The Word of God teaches that you ran be religious and miss heaven!
We are told that Seventh-day Adventism is just another denomination with just a few obscure teachings. In the historical Christianity, the believer's hope is to experience eternal life with God through their confession of faith in Jesus Christ. If the Seventh-day Adventists are just another denomination, you would expect they would have a similar if not the same hope for the future. Do Adventists anticipate the gift of eternal life and to be bodily resurrected? Upon investigating what the views were from various Adventist sources, I was surprised to discover the following:
Each person baptized as a SDA receives a "Certificate of Profession of Faith". Each person being baptized must sign a thirteen-point statement entitled "My Commitment". As we read the first five points, the document appears perfectly, fundamentally Christian.
However, by point six, we find the deviations beginning. Point six reads, "I accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians, and it is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord." Point eight has the convert believing, "that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church". Point thirteen identifies the Seventh-Day Adventist Church as the "remnant church of Bible Prophecy."
While the Seventh day Adventist Church today espouses the doctrine of the Trinity, this has not always been so. The evidence from a study of Adventist history indicates that from the earliest years of our church to the 1890's a whole stream of writers took an Arian or semi Arian position. The view of Christ presented in those years by Adventist authors was that there was a time when Christ did not exist, that His divinity is a delegated divinity, and that therefore He is inferior to the Father. In regard to the Holy Spirit, their position was that He was not the third member of the Godhead but the power of God.
It's important for us to review some of Ellen G.White's 'failed prophecies' which witness against her claimed pro-phetic gift, for Deut 18:20-22 shows if her prophecies fail to come to pass, she is a 'false prophet' as Christ warned against in Matt 24, as a sign of the end of the age. Yet before seeing some of her predictions, we must first note the claims she is a prophet:
When one seeks to clarify issues which he feels have been wrongly interpreted or defined, especially concerning a subject as important as the Sabbath, it would be expected that he should himself surely avoid using preconceived or assumed definitions of the key Biblical terms, but instead by using concordances, Bible dictionaries, lexicons, commentaries. etc., which are recognized scholarship, show what are the correct definitions of these key terms and proper interpretations of Scripture passages. As well one would expect to see valid hermeneutics used and proper procedures followed.
National Sunday Law - Fact or Fiction? Origins of the National Sunday Law
The saga began in the early 1840's in the Northeastern United States where farmer-turned-preacher William Miller made a startling discovery. This self-taught Bible student determined from his studies of prophecy that Christ would return in a few short years. As he continued studying the Bible he developed 15 "proofs" that Christ's return would happen in the fall of 1843. Armed with these "proofs," Miller began raising the alarm in local communities and soon developed a small following.
Are you told not to question what is being taught because the leaders are honest and want the best for you so you must trust them. Has someone replaced your own choices in life.
Are you told not to ask questions why anyone left, your to accept the answers the leaders give you such as: they fell into sin, they didn�t receive correction, they weren�t open or they had a bad heart and didn�t want to be disciples
Are you told that you must be with their certain church or group to be saved and not by Jesus Christ.
If you want to leave are you being told their is no other church that practices truth, you will go to hell.
Are you made to feel your failures, that your performance is not up to par for the bibles standard
Are you being rebuked for things such as the way you say hello or how you respond to being asked to do something for a leader or disciple. Do they tell you its a matter of the heart how one complies.
Are they putting down other church�s and building themselves up. Do they sometimes use people as examples of what you are to be doing and others on what you are not to be doing.
Do they bring attention to what they do, and ignoring others that may be doing the same things outside their church.
Do they put down others to make themselves look better, calling themselves righteous and others unrighteous
Do they call those who leave fall away�s and enemies, dogs returning to their own vomit, using the examples of Korah or Judas.
Do they stop you from reading anything negative about themselves calling it spiritual pornography or recommend you not to read it for your own spiritual protection.
Do they recommend for you to be around their people expecting you to be at all the group activities. If not you're spirituality and dedication are questioned.
Do they defend all that they do even though it can be harmful or wrong.
Do they operate by humility or are they arrogant and demand you to obey if you are considering otherwise. Or is it done subtly by manipulating you into obeying by statements such as, real Christians obey their leaders or if you were following Jesus you would see what I�m saying is right. true disciples did not question Jesus.
THINGS TO BE AWARE OF
People telling you how talented you are and saying you can really go places. (flattery goes a long way in cults)
An instant bonding of friendship without your knowing who they are or they really knowing you, they act as your best friend (love bombing still works).
When you ask questions about their history or the group they are vague in their answers or avoid answering them. (not answering or postponing it makes it go away)
Are you required to attend studies, going through the program before you are allowed to be a Christian. (this will attach you to the groups goals)
Are they emphasizing their church and who they are, more than Christ. They teach that one can only be a Christian by joining them. (exclusive spirituality appeals to our pride and works well today)
Cults will always divide the family unit instead of bringing them together. They will make you choose between God and their church. they use scriptures such as Jesus came to bring a sword not peace or one must give up brothers sisters wife and house for the kingdom and be a true follower Children often become the most hurt because of strict rules enforced on them.they lose their childhood and are deeply affected being unable to adjust later on in life.Religious systems that are not balanced can be socially and psychologically disastrous for innocent children. (click here to go to facts on Jehovah Witnesses and children)
What to do when confronted to join
Say you're not interested and do not put up with their badgering and phone calls.Tell them you want time to think about what they are teaching before you become committed to their group. If they pressure you for attendance or continuing in their studies then you know this is not something good.
If you are already a member, leave while it may be easy because it doesn�t get easier to leave later on.
KNOW THE RIGHTS YOU HAVE
You have every right to ask questions, lots of them in fact. Ask about what other churches they are affiliated with.
What is their history and the people involved and those they look up to for spiritual teaching. What books influenced them or what do they read.
What is their doctrine, is their basic beliefs and philosophy of ministry on paper. If not, why not.
Can you review on paper their revenues, are they open to the people and public. Do they review who gives what to the Church. Are peoples finances monitored?
If others left can you find out why, or is mum the word. Do they allow you to speak to former members. If this is not allowed, this becomes the biggest check in joining quickly. Watch if they become uncomfortable in your asking about their origins or teachings.
Give yourself some time if you're seeking to know God or looking for a church he will give you warnings and lead you. Don�t ignore the warning signs or checks on how they conduct themselves no matter how friendly the people are . Love and emotional attachments are an old ruse to have you accepted without any strings attached. This doesn�t last long. Ask what they do on their spare time .Many times ones talent and creativity is smothered as all their time goes toward the group or church.
Where do all the people in cults come from?
Ron Rhodes writes in his book "The Culting of America," "It is a common myth that unbelievers join Cults." Percentages show that those who join these aberrant groups formerly attended Christian Churches.
Dr. Paul Martin of Wellspring Retreat (where cultists adjust from their harmful experiences) writes, "Twenty-five percent formerly attended evangelical, fundamental churches. Over 40 % had backgrounds in large, more liberal Protestant denominations."
Lately the International Churches of Christ probably have the greatest percentage of Church converts. Because their main goal is to go into the Christian Churches and remove people.
Their are 2 categories of cults one is doctrinally the other is sociologically.
1. Almost all cults deny the Apostles creed which consists of the virgin birth, deity of Christ, his resurrection, his atonement aon the cross nd 2nd coming. They have tendency to pronounce other groups as apostate and they alone have the truth.
3. They devalue or deny the deity of Christ.
4. They have Extra sources of biblical revelation they may use Gods word with something else to interpret it
5. They have salvation by works -either denying God's grace or add performance. It will not always be easy to spot. Mormons say they are saved by grace-this means from death and not the penalty of sin.
6. They will deny a major doctrine. Cult like groups take a minor doctrine and make it a major. Ex: you must speak in tongues to be saved.
The following are basic patterns, or characteristics, found in almost all cults that one can easily identify.
Additions - Cults add to the Word of God by having additional writings they call scripture, or by saying that only the Bible is God's Word but you cannot understand it without their interpretation from their own teachers or books. The Bible is discouraged to be read alone.
Subtraction - Cults subtract from the Person of Jesus by saying he is something less than Eternal Deity. Or they will add their own teacher as deity.
Multiplication - Every false religion has works as part of their system of salvation. They also usually specify what works must be performed at a certain level for acceptance to their group and God.
Mediators- They will always have others involved for ones salvation by others. For the J.W.�s it is the 144,000. for the International Churches of Christ its discipleship partners. For Mormons it is to join their church for salvation and use their materials- Doctrine and Covenants, Journal of Discourses and the Melchizedek priesthood.
Divisive - Cults have people choose by dividing a person's loyalty. It's God through their leadership by claiming to be the only Spokesman or group for God. They also require obedience to their leadership to be in right standing with God. They do not tolerate another�s differing opinions and it is looked upon as being divisive or of the enemy.
1. A leader or group of leaders, prophet, prophetess, that claims to speak for God.
Fulfillment: Ellen G. White, the Seventh-day Adventist�s prophetess makes the following claims:
We could stop here with the first quote of EGW as she claims to replace Jesus Christ and is now speaking for God. This in itself shows that Adventism is a cult when comparing it with Hebrews 1:1-2.
EGW: "In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue."-- Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 661.
Bible: Heb 1:1 - 2 (NIV) 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
The term "the testimonies of His Spirit", by Ellen G. White is referring to her own prophetic ministry as recorded in her books and letters, and is understood as such by the SDA denomination. God never told his church that Jesus would be replaced by Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith or Ellen Gould White or any other prophet or prophetess.
Further EGW claims that God is instructing "his people more earnestly" now than did the prophets, apostles and even Jesus Christ through her testimonies. Heresy!!! Of course in EGW's mind "his people" are the SDA sabbath keeping people that believe that she has the "spirit of prophecy".
EGW: "In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne." --Testimonies 5 p. 67.
Do you believe that it is Jesus speaking to his church (SDA denomination) or do you accept the heresy of EGW and her testimonies?
2. What they write and teach their followers, contradicts Bible.
Fulfillment: Read, "Ellen G. White Contradicts the Bible Over 50 time" EGW holds strict authority over its members in respect to, finances, wills, diet, dress, amusement, associations, etc. as taught in her books such as Testimonies to the Church.
3. Many members taking issue with the authority of the leader are excommunicated, (disfellowshipped), shunned, or not allowed to hold office in the church, etc.
Fulfillment: EGW: "When the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has on earth, is exercised private independence and private judgment MUST NOT be maintained, but must be surrendered." Testimonies 3 p. 492.
Look at the SDA pastors that were fired for not believing in some of Ellen G. White�s teachings. Also members who have been put out of office and disfellowshipped for not accepting Ellen G. White as a prophet or her teachings.
4. Cult leaders teach infallibility in their teachings or the writings of their cult leader, in this case Ellen G. White.
Fulfillment: "It is from the standpoint of the light that has come through the Spirit of Prophecy (Mrs. White�s writings) that the question will be considered, believing as we do that the Spirit of Prophecy is the only infallible interpreter of Bible principles, since it is the Christ, through this agency, giving real meaning of his own words." G.A. Irwin, General Conference President, from the tract The Mark of the Beast, p. 1.
On February 7, 1887, the General Conference passed the following resolution -- "That we re-affirm our binding confidence in the Testimonies of Sister White to the Church, as the teaching of the Spirit of God." SDA Year Book for 1914, p. 253
"Our position on the Testimonies is like the key-stone to the arch. Take that out and there is no logical stopping-place till all the special truths of the Message are gone...Nothing is surer than this, that the Message and visions (of Mrs. White) belong together, and stand or fall together." Review and Herald Supplement, August 14, 1883.
5. The cult members believes that they are superior to others because of their unique teachings as they have knowledge of God�s will that other Christians do not have. Because of the false teachings of their prophet or leaders, they consider themselves especially chosen by God, and look at themselves as the "Remnant Church," or "The True Church".
Fulfilled: Ellen G. White and the Seventh-day Adventist Church view themselves as "the Remnant Church" alone especially called by God in 1844, over all other churches, which they called Babylon. The Adventist still considers themselves the Remnant Church. Read, "Seventh-day Adventist Believe 27," Chapter 12, The Remnant and Its Mission, p.153.
Seventh-day Adventist Believe: "One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy, This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White." "Seventh-day Adventist Believe 27," p.216.
Without Ellen G. White and her Bible Contradictions, the Seventh-day Adventist Church could not call itself the Remnant Church. In fact the Word of God never calls any denomination a remnant church.
6. Adventist leaders and their members use the writings of Ellen G. White to interpret the Scriptures. EGW's writings are the final arbitrator of doctrines.
Fulfilled: The Adventist�s claim to hold the Bible above all teachings, but in fact they interpret the Bible by the writings of Ellen G. White. This is demonstrated in their Sabbath school Quarterlies, sermons, and articles in their church paper, "Adventist Review." Her counsel is to be followed as Scripture.
7. They publish their own Bible and insert their own doctrines in the text.
Fulfilled: The Seventh-day Adventist Church publishes The Clear Word Bible. It is a cultic Bible that does not separate the Bible text from the author�s personal commentary, opinions, which slants the text to agree with the writings of Ellen G. White and whatever else to make the text say what he wants it to say. This corrupt piece of work, makes the Word of God unclear to the reader.
Adventist scholar Dr. Sakae Kubo say�s, "I am concerned about how our membership regard and use Blanco�s Clear Word. Behind my remarks is a history of Bibles of this sort that have a terrible bias. The Jehovah�s Witnesses� New World Translation is an obvious example�the divinity of Christ is removed and His createdness is brought out along with other tendential characteristics. The very obvious and serious danger is that our own people will be confused as to what the Bible really says. Interpretation has been so mixed in with the text that our people will think that the interpretation is part of the Word of God." Adventist Review, April 1995, p.15.
It's been over 2 years now since leaving Adventism. All the warnings that they gave me, that I would fall into a life of sin and immorality by accepting the doctrine of "cheap grace" have ...well...I'm more active than ever in Bible study, prayer, and fellowship with the saints!
I'm Spirit filled; fire baptized, and just sense the life of God at work in my life, like never before! Being set free from the real sins of my life and realizing my place in Christ. What a blessing!
I've come to realize that the call on my life is not to live a Christian life, but to die a Christian death!
Thanks for your ministry and God bless!
Loving Jesus,
J.C.
Praise God that your website is still on the Internet! As a former Adventist, your ministry and the information on this website has helped me personally in my search for Bible truth and has also been a tremendous help in my witnessing to legalistic SDA's and now some EX-SDA's! Praise God!!! God bless you and your ministry and don't ever give up in spreading the true gospel of God. We appreciate all of your effort and so does God!
J.B.
I just wanted to thank you all for such an awesome website and outreach. I was a member of the Adventist Church for over 8yrs and I even went to many of their schools. I was always uncomfortable with some of their doctrines and beliefs but I lacked the knowledge and wisdom to find out just what it was. It was a little over four years ago that I left the Adventist Church for being persecuted for questioning the very things that you guys provided the answers to. I have since been able to share the information on this site with my parents and other 7th day friends of mine in order to lead them out of "religion" and into a true loving relationship with Jesus. Thanks so much for all of your hard work and dedication to this issue, you have certainly won more souls for the kingdom!!
Happily serving my Jesus,
K. - Virginia
I have just finished reading The Ten Commandments Twice Removed (TCTR) review by Jon Zens located on your site. I�m really impressed with the concise way he has "hit the nail on the head". We really needed his brilliant review 30 years ago to ably present the comparisons between the straight and crooked sticks. This compliments the other excellent material on this site. I am also following Mazzafarri's detailed critique on 1844 on the link you guys have provided. We were involved with Adventism in the period leading up to the "heady 80's era" running forum's etc. to allow a much wider platform for discussion and thought exchange that was not tolerated by the SDA Church controlled sector. It is great to see that more and more of the "Adventist flock" are daring to start searching and doing independent studies, apart from the Adventist drip fed diet. Thanks for all the other information that you have available on your site enabling us to be much more effective concerning Adventism. Of much more importance is the Calvary facility which is so effectively communicating the New Testament Scriptural Gospel. Thanks to your team for your appreciated efforts to get the word out to all of us who need it worldwide. God will keep blessing as we all continue to make ourselves available to finish the work of spreading the true gospel.
God bless,
A.R. - Australia
Just a quick note to thank you and your ministry so much. I was ready to join the SDA's until I came across your website and began to read and listen to your material. The Gospel and the Covenants just blew me away. Praise Jesus He has set me free indeed to follow Him! Once again thank you for your love and boldness.
T. - Australia
Thank you, thank you, Pastor Mark!
I can't tell you what a source of comfort your site has been. All my in-laws are SDA... I started dating my husband when we were just teenagers and I was told everything from "You're not going to Heaven if you don't keep the Sabbath" to a 6 year old telling me "You're not going to Heaven if you eat that chicken sandwich". I never could agree with that, but didn't have the experience or the maturity to dispute it. However, my husband and I loved each other so much we just got to the point of avoiding the topic. (I did question him an awful lot, though).
Now we have two beautiful young children and I am doing all I can to equip them, as well as protect them from any EGW inspired accusations or suggestions. I love my in-laws, and they've come to love me as well over the years. I really don't want to cause any tension or alienation between us. However I will do everything I can to keep my kids from getting sucked into the SDA culture.
My husband has attended church with me for the last 3 years. He's been slowly getting involved in our congregation and has started lending his skills to our church. At the same time though, he won't mention that at all to his parents... He told me recently that if he became a member of our church it would be like stabbing his parents in the back. He's unbelievably afraid of hurting his parents to the point of it making me feel slighted.
Which brings me back to you. I prayed about this situation over the years, but about 6 weeks ago, I really reached into my heart and asked the Lord for some direction. Sure enough, I wound up on your site in one of the testimonies you posted. What a welcome relief! I felt like someone had crawled into my life. Believe me, I was thanking Jesus all afternoon. I've been reading like crazy, but my favorite resource is the audio section. That has helped me as much as anything.
Pastor Mark, thank you very much for your putting this site together. You are such a blessing.
God bless you so much!!
L. A.
I always check www.exAdventist.com often. Thanks for posting the issue of Lamplighter dealing with Seventh-day Adventism. In the issue was a picture of the Investigative Judgment in heaven. The man is looking down and the Ten Commandments are in the foreground. I hadn�t seen that painting since I was a kid in Sabbath School! I remember a lot of other ones, I�m sure you do too, where angels were abandoning sinners, or Jesus was judging someone. We would sing �Jesus loves me� and �With Jesus in the family, happy, happy home!� in Sabbath School. It just doesn�t fit the underlying doctrines. As kids, we didn�t know any better. Ever since I was saved, when I see these things, I thank God for His grace and peace.
B.
My husband's family is Seventh-day Adventist and I just wanted to thank you for your informative site which has not only helped me understand their beliefs but has also helped me get answers to some of the accusations they throw at me about breaking the commandments (Sabbath). Thanks so much.
J. P.
I am member of a Baptist church in Germany. Recently I met a 7th-day Adventist and I learned some of their doctrines, and it makes me so sad that people can distort so much the Word of God. He is very well "trained" to justify what he believes, since he is a teacher in his church.
I was very glad when I came across your website. It is very good to hear that God can still reveal Himself and His grace even for people who are so firm in a different belief. I really like your approach of telling the truth in love, rather than attacking and even mocking their 'ignorance,' as I saw in other sites.
M. S. - Germany
I just want to thank the Lord for Mark Martin. I have downloaded most of his talks regarding Adventism. I just listened to his sermon on knowing you are saved. Since Adventism, I continue to struggle with those doubts and lies from satan. Please let Mark know that his words are blessings from the Lord. I love Jesus; and Mark through the direction of the Holy Spirit has communicated Gods wonderful great news of Jesus saving work.
Jesus� work is done and our work is to Glorify and worship the risen Christ.
God bless in Jesus name,
C. B. - Avon, MN
M. K.
I am praying for inspired voices like yours, Professor Desmond Ford, Pr. Robert Brinsmead, Pr. Walter Rea and Smyth van Rooyen. I have been following your inspirational internet site and updates since 2002. Keep up the blessed work. The world needs you.
Kind regards,
M.
Dear Pastor Mark,
I was attending an SDA church for two years, and now I have to give you a feedback on how your website worked in my life.
As a child I was attending a Catholic church (I am living in a catholic country) on my own interest. When I found out, that I have to do all things over and over again, then I did not go there again. I lost sight of God in my life. 15 years later a friend (SDA) invited me to a Bible study group. I went for the first time and it was interesting. I then started to attend that group and after a while I went to church. Firstly all the people were friendly (actually over friendly). I did not examine what we were doing at the Bible groups, I started to take it for granted. In the time I made a couple of "friends" in SDA circuit and I even went on two conferences (youth). The second was for the whole Europe in Poland. The different groups I was participating were from Monday to Sunday. Every day was a group or a thing in Church. So you see my input was huge.
After a while I started to feel Sabbath as a big burden. There were too many of them and the pressure rose on me in the Church, so on their opinion I should get baptized. I had a big problem. I did not want to get baptized in an organization.
Then I have started to research on the web about SDA. From a Slovenian site on SDA I have come across your site. I have studied everything on it and I still listen to your messages in my car on MP3. It was a real blessing. At that time I got saved. I have learned, that I can not do anything to deserve heaven, it is Jesus who paid the price. I would really like to express a big thanks to you and your ministry.
Then I looked at www.calvaryphx.com to see, where does a former SDA Pastor go to Church. I have checked all over your site, with the answers, I have even watched your live services. I was blessed. I thought to myself, if only we here in Slovenia had a Church like that. Than after a week or so I went researching again, and I found a site calvarychapel.com and I looked at the churches in the US and I have also found out that there is a world map of churches. I was really shocked when I saw a small dot in Slovenia. I was amazed. I wrote an email to the Pastor and he answered inviting me to the church.
So I went and since then I have been attending that church. It is not my town (it is a 40 miles distances) so they recommended me to visit also a Church in Maribor, my home town. My life went up and I really thank God and you for my salvation. I thrust that if I am ever in the States, that I come and visit you. I would really like to shake your hand.
Under the mercy of God,
S. C. - Slovenia, Europe
Pastor Mark,
As a third generation Adventist and son of a well-known minister, I left the church and its legalism after working with an SDA outreach group, then attending Andrews University. I headed as far away from the denomination and God as I could get. I ran to drugs, drink and all sort of illegal activities. I now joke that the SDA school system should have a course on appropriate alternatives when you leave the church!
But He never stopped knocking, and one day I found the FAF web site and started studying the Word (along with my Catholic wife). His acceptance of a sinner is amazing and I praise His name every day. At last, I am saved and feel His love and a grace. Today I am an active member of a community church in my city. At age 50 I find it such a pity that I spent valuable years of my life running from a god that didn't really even exist. He was a creation of EGW and the church. WOW
I'm devoting some of my time to reaching out to SDA friends (some out of the church; some ministers) to spread the wonderful truth of a good and wonderful God, and the difference He can make in one's life through grace; amazing grace.
Thank you for your ministry and the light that you helped shine for me.
In His Grace,
Name withheld by request
I am a Christian and have been saved for over 14 years now. I was raised in a Christian home and have been an active member of the Presbyterian PCA church in my hometown for quite sometime now. How does the SDA Church pertain to me you ask. Well I recently dated a SDA. He is a wonderful guy. I knew going into the relationship that he and I had different beliefs, but he was very open minded so I thought I could make it work. This was not the case. We had very few talks about religion and this upset me because Jesus is such a huge part of my life. We recently broke up and I know it was a "God Thing". It was his way of protecting my heart from more breakage.
I am continuing to read and seek more information from your website because I want to be more knowledgeable about this denomination. I find it all so fascinating. It is a GREAT ministry and a wonderful tool for those seeking more information about the SDA Church.
I can not thank you enough for your website!
A.D. - South Carolina
Hello, I am a former Seventh-day Adventist, I came out of Adventism one year ago last month and my spiritual life has been progressing in such a wonderful way, your website was very helpful in my search for the real TRUTH, God bless you for being able to help people in this way. During my studies I was led by God to start writing an article about Adventism, I have so many Adventist friends that are miserable in that faith but haven't researched it and are stuck because it's all that they know.
Thank you and may God continually bless you!
L.D.
Pastor Mark,
I was enlightened by listening to one of your sermons online when you talked about how the Sabbath was never intended to end and that Sabbath rest was initially intended to be a state of rest and not a day of rest. What an awesome revelation! That is a very important point that many Adventist don�t study or understand. My heart really goes out to people of the Adventist faith. In my circle of Adventism here in Ohio I have been in contact with so many of them who are confused and extremely unhappy with their churches but they are afraid to leave because of the Sabbath day. It is so incredible to hear you speak and to read other testimonials on all of the things about Adventism that I only last year started to realize. I was extremely active in my former church and I believe that God allowed that precedence to be set so that He can now use me to free others. Many aren�t willing to listen but I still will be willing to tell the truth about our Lord and only Savior Jesus Christ! Please pray that I will continually stay under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Thank you so much for your witness!!
L.D. - Ohio
Anonymous from California
Thank you very much for this ministry� I grew up in Seventh-day Adventist Church and left when I was 16 years of age, as I felt I couldn't live up to their standards. Thanks very much for your outreach site, as I find much of this info comforting, as I have chosen to try and forget about God and the church for many years. I felt that I have been living an unfulfilled life for many years, thinking things will get better tomorrow, but never did. I started to do some research on the net, and found your site. I have come back to faith in God in the last year at 44 years of age, but I still feel haunted by some of beliefs of the SDA Church . With the info on your site, I can fin al ly sort out many of the misconceptions that I had learned in my childhood. My mother, father and brother still attend this church, therefore I'm not able to share my joy of being a Christian with them, as you know that they believe that al l other churches are wrong!! I'm very glad that my wife has turned to Christ as well and we are both actively involved with our new church here� my only regret is that I didn't find Christ earlier, as both of my daughters don't believe. The youth are very proactive in our church, praise God. I pray to God that they may see how great God really is and what He can do for them.
Anonymous
I was an SDA for 25 years until finding out the truth about Ellen White through some fascinating dreams that the Lord had given me and through the ministry of sdaoutreach.org and the former SDA sites. Praise God for people like you. It would have taken me much longer to figure out what was wrong with the church if it had not been for these articles. Before leaving the church my friend and I shared as much of this information as we could with members of the church as well as pastors and a conference president. We are trusting God to water the seeds planted. January 2005 I received confirmation of my resignation from the SDA Church . We have been very blessed after leaving the SDA Church. We now are"FREE INDEED". I am so grateful.
C.T. - Massachusetts
God bless you and your ministry!! I've been greatly helped by your website. I was meeting with a really nice Seventh-day A dventist once a week for most of this past year . He slowly convinced me (by double and triple tag teaming me) that I should start keeping the S abbath and quit eating bacon. Man, I was SO CLOSE!! But I found your website and was set free from the guilt and condemnation that was heaped onto me by that SDA doctrine. The link that you had to Canright's stuff was great. When I mentioned his name to the SDA folks � you could see that look in their eyes� �Oh, no� We're gonna lose this guy�. They tried to say that he was delusional and renounced his Baptist faith. But I found out that they were just lies.
R.T.
I wrote you some months back concerning my little girl's desire to join the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I knew when I read your website that you could help me in finding out both sides of the truth about them. Since my child's father's family was all Seventh-day Adventists, she had visited with them quite a lot and had grown to love the people. But when she came home and was talking of wanting to join with them, that's when I searched out and found your website.
I had not been a good example for my children since marrying her Dad. I left the Church that I had always loved and lived as my husband did (he doesn't attend anywhere since he quit going to the Adventist church). But all their beliefs remain with him. Since talking to you when you wrote me and your generous help by sending me the video of Ellen G. White. We all viewed it and that was my deciding factor. I would tell my little girl I forbade her to join. So I did. I decided that husband or not I had to take the "bull by the horns" and grow up. I started taking my little girl to an old timely little Baptist Church. And Praise God! She LOVES it! She is fitting right in and is so very happy. She wants to go every time the doors are open.
I thank you so much for telling me to get my child in a Christ loving Church. It made me grow up and try and be a better mother.
Sorry such a long letter, but I just wanted you to know that you have really helped me to help myself and my little girl. I look at her while she raises her little arms and claps her hands praising God! Please let others know my story if you get a chance. It might help someone else. Thank you again.
L.B. - Alabama
Hello!! I've attended Sabbath worship and Bible study for about 2 months, but I started to feel/think "Something is wrong with SDA's doctrines", so I looked for information through Internet. A few days ago I found your website, and I read all articles, listened to all RealPlayer files including your sermons. All of them answered my question "Why I feel 'Something is wrong'?", and you made it very very clear what's the problem of SDA's teachings. That's so great!! Today (on Sunday) I visited Southern Baptist church in Yokohama (where I live) and I attended both Bible study and Sunday worship. Wow, they are really so wonderful!! Unlike SDA's Bible study, I could read Gospel of Matthew verse by verse with people of this church, and on the worship service I listened to very great sermon...The pastor will be preaching from Epistle to the Colossians throughout the Autumn months, and he recommends church members to bring notebooks to take notes to understand Colossians and the Christ-filled life from Apostle Paul. That's really incredible. I've attended some churches of some different denominations since my childhood by my will (My family is not interested in Christianity), but I've never taken such a wonderful Bible lesson!!
Although I am not SDA member, I almost started to believe SDA's doctrines are true. I want to say "Thank you" for your eye opening work!! Arigato (Japanese word, meaning "Thanks") and May God bless you!!
A.O. - Japan
I was born into the SDA church. All I knew was that I couldn't do this or that from sun down on Fri till sun down on Sat. And that there were a lot of rules to go by and I learned that it was no fun going to church. I always felt out of place as a child because I didn't fit into one of the clicks that the children tend to form. Now the people in general are very nice and caring, but when it comes right down to it I feel that if you had little money then you were always at the bottom of the list. You were pressured to give more money than you could for this or that and in my own opinion it was unnecessary. We would give what we could and then be asked why we were not giving more and made to feel bad about it. Now I don't recall specifics just a lot of hurt feelings as I was growing up. My sister and I were enrolled into the SDA elementary school and from my viewpoint as a child at the time I'm very glad it didn't last very long. I think the best part about the church school was that they incorporated the Bible into the curriculum. I stopped going to church when I was 15 or 16 and I wasn't too unhappy about that. Growing up my parents made me go weather I wanted to or not so this just made me not want to go even more. Well, the years went by and I would drop in here and there to see if I might want to walk my path again and every time I went I never felt welcomed. I gave it several chances and it never seemed to be right for me. Well, I got married and had children and all the time I felt something was missing in my life and it was God who was missing. It wasn't until I was divorced and on my own again that I found my way back to God. I knew I needed Him and I wanted to find the right place for me. It was hard. I searched many churches until one day at work a friend of mine told me about his church. Calvary Community Church. He told me all about Pastor Mark and his past SDA dealings and I thought that I had to give this church a chance since we already had something in common. So I went and I did completely feel at home with the group of people. I decided that this is where I want to be. This is my new home and family. I can't think of a better place to worship than with others who love God so much! I was saved on Christmas Eve 1999. Praise God!!!!!
Thank you for reaching out to me and accepting me into your flock.
Much love,
R.P. - Phoenix, Arizona
Greetings,
I pastor a non-denominational church start currently renting space in a 7th Day facility but soon to be relocating to our new site. Because we share space (and the 7th Day Elders have encouraged me to do so) I have read many books from 7th Day sources.
I can say your site is right on target. Your site is factual when quoting their sources and has been very helpful to me lately. I have been in dialogue with one of their members who is preparing for their pastoral ministry and have taken the questions you offer to him.
Thanks for your ministry. Many can't, and shouldn't, read their material to the degree I have and your site makes research so accessible.
Again, you offer a valuable resource on 7th Day Adventism.
(name removed to preserve anonymity)
Hi,
I am a SDA and have been one since I was 17 (I am now 50). I happened to come upon your website - sdaoutreach.org - by accident when researching something else. I try to have an open mind and always wondered why so many people didn't see the importance of keeping the weekly Saturday Sabbath. I listen to Chuck Swindoll, Hank Hanegraaff (the Bible Answer Man) and enjoy their programs and admire their faith and knowledge, but always wondered why even these people don't believe that keeping the weekly Saturday Sabbath is important now. Well, to make a long story shorter, I sent away for some tapes and books from Calvary Chapel. I've concentrated more on the law and the covenants, and I can't believe I've never seen (or really understood) how all of it fits together so perfectly. I think I've listened to the two tapes on the law and the covenants about 10 times (when I'm driving to and from work). I can't believe all these years I've been keeping a sign of the Old Covenant.
I have one daughter, age 15, who has been raised an SDA. I also have 3 stepchildren, age 23, 22, and 20 - all of whom are SDA's. All except the oldest live with my husband and I, who is also an SDA (all of his life). I have talked to my daughter some about the covenants, the Sabbath- and she has listened to one side of the first tape on the law and the covenants. She is interested and wants to listen more and agrees with what she has heard. She also told me though that she doesn't think we should go to another church. I've also talked a little to my step-daughter who told me I should talk to an SDA pastor she knew where she went to school. My husband, when I tried to talk to him a little about what I had been listening to and reading, told me that in the last days the devil will try to confuse people-- so I didn't go any further with him. I don't want to confuse anyone or ruin anyone's faith - especially my daughter's - because of how young she is. There are not any young people her age in our church - only 4 boys a little younger than her and one in his older teens.
I am praying that God will show me the best way to tell my family. Also, my parents are SDA's and my father won't even listen to the tapes. He is part of the historical advent movement. I really want to share with them the freedom in Christ that God wants us to have now that we are under the New Covenant.
Sincerely,
P.H. - Massachusetts
Dear Pastor Martin,
I wish to applaud your excellent study on the Sabbath that appears on your Website. I am also a former SDA minister. I wholeheartedly endorse all the material on your Website. My wife and I are active members of the First Evangelical Free Church here in Lincoln, Nebraska. We officially left Seventh-day Adventism in 2000 after being devout members for over forty years. God called us out of Adventism in His own time. I firmly believe that He redeems our past.
The last major SDA tenet that we overcame was their teaching about the state of the dead. Conditionalism and soul sleep seem to hang on in Adventist minds more than any other doctrine. I have noticed that many former Adventists still hang unto this heresy. The excellent book titled, DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, by Dr. Robert Morey was a great help in our finally accepting the biblical view of death.
I am pleased to learn that you pastor a very large church in Phoenix. I read your account in PROCLAMATION magazine. Please be assured that your able, online ministry touches many lives. May God continue to abundantly bless you and your family.
In awe of Calvary,
D. F. - Lincoln, Nebraska
Hello, Thank you for your website. I was almost sucked in! A few Sundays in a row, I woke up, early mornings and found this "very interesting" and "very likeable" pastor on "Amazing Facts" television. I even called the phone number at the end of the show and in no time started receiving little magazines that were easy to read and made very good sense to me... especially since my dear mother had recently died and I've been angry about it and looking for answers, the big "why" question. I mentioned to one of my relatives that I was reading these "really interesting" pamphlets and they laughed telling me WHO Amazing Facts really was and that was exactly how they get people sucked in. I called the phone number and just came out and asked them if there were associated with SDA and was told yes. I let them know what awful people they were for playing people like that. It's bothered me since then and I started doing searches on the internet to see if I could find out more. Like, why in their booklets and on their TV programs do they not mention this Ellen White? Anyway, thank you for your web site. I really feel betrayed because I ordered the pamphlets hoping to find answers to why my mother was taken from me. I just wish I would have thought to ask one of my relatives before I read all their "stuff".
I am a junior at a University in South Carolina. I discovered your website a few weeks ago and love it! I have enjoyed reading all about the SDA Church while at the same time seeing God's truth revealed and defended by Scripture. Y'all have done a wonderful job!
Thank you, Pastor Mark! You are a blessing!
We just showed the video to about 100 people two weeks ago. It went so well, and people are well equipped to share with SDA people. This is a tool that we use over and over. We are grateful for you making it available to us!
We love you!
J.B. & P.B. - Peru
I was so blessed reading your material. My wife is a former Adventist, but she still needs some help in understanding grace.
I will continue to visit your site and we need your help. I'm a born-again believer in Jesus.
K.
Thank you Pastor,
Thank you for a very truth-honing earth shattering website. We hope the site is sustained. May God bless you and your wonderful work
1. Source of Authority. Ellen G. White claimed to be, "a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." The official SDA Questions on Doctrine (Q.D.) states that, "the Holy Spirit opened to her mind important events and called her to give certain instructions for these last days, and inasmuch as these instructions, in our understanding, are in harmony with the Word of God, which Word alone is able to make us wise unto salvation, we as a denomination accept them as inspired counsels from the Lord" (Q.D., p. 93). (Emphasis added.) Mrs. White claimed to have received more than 3,000 "inspired counsels from the Lord" (i.e., visions) between 1844 and 1868. (From these "visions," she produced over 100,000 handwritten manuscript pages from which were published 54 books!) Therefore, SDAs have a new source of authority in their lives -- according to SDA's dogma, if an SDA does not accept Mrs. White as infallible, they have no salvation!
**Not true. Just because someone doesn't accept Ellen White doesn't mean they won't be saved. There are many that are saved or will be saved that have no idea Ellen White even exists. It doesn't matter. If an adventist says it does then they aren't listening to Ellen White anyway.
2. Mankind. Seventh-Day Adventists do not believe that the whole man or any part of him is inherently "immortal" (Q.D., p. 518). SDAs believe in "soul sleep" for the saved (i.e., no conscious existence from the time of death until the resurrection), and annihilation for the wicked (i.e., the body and soul are destroyed at death rather than experiencing everlasting torment). How, then, can one get to heaven?: SDAs believe that one can have immortality only on the condition that he comes to Christ through Ellen G. White; i.e., a works program, following salvation by grace with light of revelation through Ellen G. White as the infallible guide to Holy Scripture, apart from which one cannot have immortality.3 Then, at resurrection day, the body will be re-created (necessary because of soul sleep) for all those who believe in White's guidance and teachings (while non-SDAs will remain in "soul sleep" forever; i.e., will cease to exist [annihilated] and will not suffer everlasting torment).
**Already covered this....hopefully you read it.
3. Christ. Mrs. White: "Christ took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature ... Christ took human nature and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He took our nature and its deteriorating condition" (Q.D., pp. 654-656) (cf. Jn. 14:30). According to SDA, then, Christ acquired a sinful nature! Of course, if this could have been so, there could have been no sinless sacrifice, no hope for sinners, and no Savior.
**You're interjecting your view of original sin on the adventists view. If our view, all a sinful nature is...is our infirmities, our inherited tendendies. Not actual sin. Jesus suffered in every way as we do. How could He have done that if He was fully God? You're denying the humanity of Jesus. Jesus came after the likeness of sinful flesh.
4. Atonement. "Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ" (E.G. White, The Great Controversy [TGC], 1911, p. 623; TGC has since been retitled and published as America in Prophecy, 1988). SDA teaches that, though saved by grace, we are kept by the Law (i.e., "partial atonement"). Therefore, one must keep Old Testament dietary and ceremonial laws, paying particular attention to keep the Saturday Sabbath and the Ten Commandments, and most importantly, making sure to faithfully pay the tithe.
**Lol...our church leaves tithe up to the members. If they don't pay tithe it's between them and God. It's not a requirement of membership. Unlike a lot of churches, we aren't money hungry. Dietary and ceremonial laws are also optional. They give us a healthier life by following the principles of God. Has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with being a good witness. "If you follow God, He will bless you". Keeping the 10 commandments however...is required to be a member in good standing. If you want to become an adventist, it means you believe the ten commandments still exist. And if you deny one of them it reflects badly on the christian life adventists profess. Why be an adventist if you don't believe in adventism. But otherwise, already covered that too.
Even when speaking of being saved by the righteousness of Christ, Adventist writers refer to imparted righteousness, seldom to the Biblical concept of imputed righteousness. Calling it "Christ's righteousness," while insisting on the believer's perfection of character as a prerequisite to salvation, is at worst a thinly veiled works salvation, or at best an attempt to mix grace and works, something the Bible says is impossible to do (Rom. 11:6). Mrs. White's words are crystal clear -- one will not be forgiven until all sins are eradicated from one's life and one's character is perfected. Precisely the same heresy is found (besides many others) in Mormonism. It is not the salvation by grace alone through faith alone offered in the Bible.
**She doesn't say that. She says we have to strive to live a sinless life. Doesn't mean we will be successful all the time. It's an attitude of hatred of sin. That is how we recieve a christ-like character through grace.
5. Baptism. "� Christ made it clear that He required baptism of those who wished to become part of His church, His spiritual kingdom"; "In baptism believers enter into the passion experience of our Lord"; "� [B]aptism also marks [a] person's entrance into Christ's spiritual kingdom. � it unites the new believer to Christ.� Through baptism the Lord adds the new disciples to the body of believers -- His body, the church.� Then they are members of God's family" (SDAs Believe �, pp. 182, 184, 187).
6. The Investigative Judgment. According to SDA theology, beginning on October 22, 1844, Christ entered upon the "judgment phase" of His ministry, whereby He blots out sin: [The SDA doctrine of the "Investigative Judgment" rests on Ellen G. White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the heavenly Holy of Holies, not at His ascension, but in 1844, wherein He then began to investigate the records of human works (TGC, pp. 362-373) (cf. Heb. 9).] "When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty" (TGC, p. 422). Satan, thereby, becomes the scapegoat of Leviticus 16. This lack of clear distinction between the forgiveness of sins and the blotting out of sins, makes it impossible for anyone to know, even in the hour of his death, whether he is saved or not. (SDAs are not "allowed" to experience assurance of salvation, because then there would be no pressure on them to keep the Old Testament law, as interpreted by Ellen G. White, and especially no pressure to pay the tithe.) Moreover, the concept that the sins of all men are to be laid on Satan, assigns to Satan an indispensable role in the blotting out of sin, thus nullifying the all-sufficiency of the finished work of Christ. [When Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished," i.e. completed, paid in full, it cannot be that there is yet another salvation event more than 1,800 years later, just as essential to salvation as Christ's death on the cross, in which one must believe in order to be saved. This is clearly "another gospel" (Gal. 1:6�9).]4
The "Investigative Judgment" and the "Scapegoat Theory of the Atonement" are, by themselves, so non-Biblical as to contradict Galatians 1:8-9. It is "another gospel," about which the Apostle Paul wrote, "let such be anathema" (i.e., cursed/condemned). Yet according to Ellen White, one must believe this doctrine to be saved:
"Those who would share the benefits of the Savior's mediation should permit nothing to interfere with their duty to perfect holiness in the fear of God � The subject of the sanctuary and the Investigative Judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position [in the Holy of Holies] and work [Investigative Judgment] of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs for them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God � All who have received the light on these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. The sanctuary in heaven is the very center of Christ's work in behalf of men � It is of the utmost importance that all should thoroughly investigate these subjects � The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon a cross. By His death He began that work which after his resurrection He ascended to complete in Heaven" (TGC, pp. 488�89; emphasis added).
**Already covered this too.
7. The Sabbath. "In the last days, the Sabbath test will be made plain. When this time comes, anyone who does not keep the Sabbath will receive the mark of the beast and will be kept from heaven" (TGC, p. 449); "� [T]he divine institution of the Sabbath is to be restored � The delivering of this message will precipitate a conflict that will involve the whole world. The central issue will be obedience to God's law and the observance of the Sabbath. � Those who reject it will eventually receive the mark of the beast" (TGC, pp. 262�63). In one of her most revered works, Ellen White wrote that Sabbath observance would be the "line of distinction" in the "final test" that will separate God's end-time people who "receive the seal of God" and are saved, from those who "receive the mark of the beast" (The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, p. 605). Describing a supposed vision direct from God, Ellen White wrote, "I saw that the Holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers" (Early Writings, p. 33; emphasis added). She also wrote of some Adventists failing to understand that "Sabbath � observance was of sufficient importance to draw a line between the people of God and unbelievers" (Ibid., p. 85).
SDAs have, thereby, made Sabbath-keeping a criterion for a personal relationship with the Lord -- even to the extent of one's salvation! Why? Because, according to SDAs, we are all to be under strict adherence to Old Testament Law, including the Ten Commandments, of which the fourth one says, "keep the Sabbath." (This Sabbath-keeping requirement was supposedly confirmed in a vision received by Ellen G. White, rather than by study of the Bible.) SDAs believe that "Sunday-keeping" will be the mark of the beast in the future.
**Covered. But the sabbath is not the actual "seal" in itself...the identifying marks of God's people in the end time is "commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus". It's probably the holy spirit too. I'm sure the holy spirit is with anyone that keeps the commandments of God and has the testimony of Jesus.
*Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
*James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
8. Ellen G. White, the Prophet. Many rank-and-file SDA members deny that their organization any longer decrees Ellen G. White a God-inspired prophet. Yet in SDA official publications, the SDA church continues to defend Ellen White legends, and maintain there was no difference in the degree of inspiration she received from that received by Bible writers (Review & Herald, 4 October 1928, p. 11; "Source of Final Appeal," Adventist Review, 3 June 1971, pp. 4�6; G. A. Irwin, Mark of the Beast, p. 1; "The Inspiration and Authority of the Ellen G. White Writings," Adventist Review, 15 July 1982, p. 3; Ministry, October 1981, p. 8 (5); see also, Judged by the Gospel, pp. 125�130). And in the SDA June 2000, General Conference, the church voted to more aggressively affirm and support the "Spirit of Prophecy through the ministry of Ellen White" (Adventist Today, [online: July 2000]).
**Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
The reason we support her writings is because they agree with our view of the bible. The same as Calvin agrees with Baptists. Luther with Lutherns...and so on. Show me a Luthren that renounces Luther, and I'll show you a christian that isn't a Luthren anymore. The fact that YOU don't think she agrees with the bible is unimportant. I do. That doesn't make me a cultist. Once again...the egg did not come before the chicken. The foundational beliefs of the Adventist denomination do not need Ellen White to support them..and the claim that they do is false.
Seventh-day Adventists won't tell you they are behind the "Revelation Seminars" they sponsor. They act all" interdenominational" if questioned. Watch out for these SDA outreaches as well: Voice of Prophecy, Faith for Today, It is Written, The Quiet Hour, Amazing Facts etc. They also hide behind Heath oriented shows on the networks, and sponsor stop-smoking clinics etc, all as introductions to Seventh-day Adventism.
Often, the only tip-off that what you are reading originates with them is that it is published by "Pacific Press". They produce bright and colorful Children's books, often seen in medical and dental offices, and of course, unsuspecting Church libraries.
They very much want to be perceived as Evangelical Christians, seeking a place on the ministerial fellowships. All this is good PR for them, but what do they really believe?
What facts won't they tell you?
They won't tell you that they consider themselves to be the only, true, remnant Church. Their prophetess, Ellen G. White, whom they revere and believe without question has told them that
"...Satan has taken full possession of the Churches". (Spiritual Gifts V.l,p.189-90) They also believe our prayers are an "abomination" to God. (Spiritual Gifts, V1 p.190).
That is what they think of you and your church, even if they won't say it out loud in public, or to your face.
They revere their founding prophetess, Ellen G. White, and made this statement in their "Ministry" Magazine of Oct. 1981 and have never retracted it:
"We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other".
They won't tell you too much about Ellen G. White at their public seminars, but their goal is to bring the person attending to the point of conversion and baptism.
Their 2000 baptismal certificate poses questions to which the candidate must answer "yes". Question 8 says,
"Do you accept the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church".
If the candidate says "yes" and is baptised, they soon learn that the "gift of prophecy" is Ellen G. White's writings. Point 13 has them accepting that the SDA Church is the remnant church of Bible Prophecy. They have been baptized into an exclusive group, but they don't know how exclusive it is, yet!
No doubt they will be urged to avail themselves of a "Clear Word Bible". This publication of theirs has inserted the words and doctrines of Ellen G. White right into the Bible text, insuring that the person studying it will have the mind of Ellen G. White.
Slowly, but surely, the new SDA will come to believe these extra-biblical doctrines that set the SDA church apart from Evangelical Christianity.
Seventh-day Adventists, in the early days, denied the Trinity, but now they accept it. However, they have "leftovers" from this heresy. Ellen G. White wrote in Patriarchs and Prophets, page 761, "...He (Jesus) was revealed to them as the Angel of Jehovah, the Captain of the Lord's Host, Michael the Archangel".
Adventists, you can't have it both ways! Either Jesus Christ is God, or He is some kind of an Angel. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth to try to cover up embarrassing statements by Ellen G. White. They won't tell you she was wrong - when its "her or the Bible", she always wins!
If you receive Christ as your Saviour through the SDA's, only your past sins, up to that moment are forgiven. Now you must get to work to earn your salvation. Ellen G. White said in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald of 10-26-1897 this statement,
"...The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. It is plainly stated that the condition of gaining eternal life is obedience to the commandments of God".
Of course, it is the fourth commandment that is stressed, since Ellen saw this one glowing in one of her visions. Salvation now becomes dependent on which day of the week one observes.
Modern Adventists keep sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as the Sabbath, but earlier in their history they kept 6 p.m. Friday to 6 p.m. Saturday.
The rest of us "Sunday keepers" are doomed to receive the "mark of the beast" and lose our eternal life. (The Spirit of Prophecy V. 4, p. 505). They sure don't say this at their seminars!
Christ exclaimed "It is finished" when He died for our sins, but it is not finished in Seventh-day Adventism! EGW wrote in "The Faith I Live By" p. 211,
"At the time appointed for the judgement - the close of the 2300 days, in 1844&endash;began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins...both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works". (Rev. 20:12".
People are never told at Seminars that if they become SDA's and are baptized, a recording angel is watching their every move to determine their salvation eventually. EGW issues this warning in The Faith I Live By, page 210,
"Every man's work passes in review before God...Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered, with terrible exactness, every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel."
It's not much fun being an Adventist and being watched constantly by that recording angel with his "terrible exactness". Prepare to become very uptight.
Christians will say, "sure we slip sometimes into unintentional sin, but we have a mediator in Christ Jesus". No, you don't in Seventh-day Adventism. Be prepared for this SDA doctrine by Ellen G. White:
"...Those who are living on the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil....". (The Great Controversy p. 425).
Obviously they have chosen EGW's doctrine over that stated in the Bible in Hebrews 7:25,
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them".
Where would we all be without Christ as our mediator, EVER making intercession for us?
Christ bore our own sins in his body on the tree according to the Bible. 1 Peter 2:24 says, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree...". Become a SDA, and it will be Satan who will eventually bear your sins! Ellen G. White wrote,
"...so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin...so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate...".(The Great Controversy p. 485).
You won't hear this one at the Seminars! They keep their radical teachings for later.
Seventh-day Adventism grew despite endorsing a false date for Christ's return. What a dubious beginning!
Ellen G. White endorsed a false prophecy by William Miller that Christ would return, first in 1843 and then 1844. Miller repented when Christ didn't show up on his date but Ellen didn't want to be viewed as a false prophetess for endorsing him through her visions. The idea was concocted by one of her followers that the date was right, but the event was wrong. Ellen eagerly accepted this "out", and this explanation was offered to explain away the false prophecy:
Christ didn't come visibly to earth, but He, invisibly, in heaven, changed compartments from the Holy to the Most Holy in 1844 and began the work of "investigative judgment" that we have discussed previously.
This false date and its failure triggered other heresies on the atonement of Christ which continues to this day. Honest-hearted SDA's who have pointed out the error of the 1844 investigative judgment have been shown the door by their Conference. You sure won't be told the true history behind the 1844 doctrine by SDA's!
Embarrassing false prophecies by EGW have been, altered, covered up, and locked up by the SDA's. You won't be told about them, but here are a couple.
One false prophecy done in the name of the Lord marks that one as a false prophet (See Deut. chapter 18).
Ellen G. White said people alive in 1856 would be translated at the 2nd coming of Jesus. (Testimonies, V1, p 131,132).
She said in Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1, p. 259, that the United States would be "...humbled into the dust" by England during the Civil War.
No wonder Jesus told us to "Beware of the false prophets". Time is their enemy. These false prophecies will never be mentioned by the SDA's.
You won't be told at the SDA Seminars about the things they have in common with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.
SDA's share their early history with the Jehovah's Witnesses. An early Adventist, N. H. Barbour co-published with Charles Taze Russell. They had a falling out over (what else?) dates for the end of the world! (1844 and 1874), and parted company.
Both, however, kept heretical doctrines to this day like Jesus being Michael the Archangel, the denial of Hell, and both still advocate soul sleep. Both invented invisible occurrences in heaven for their failed dates for Christ's visible return, investigative judgment for the SDA's and Christ's invisible "presence" for Jehovah's Witnesses.
There is Mormon link also for the SDA's. It is a proven fact that Ellen G. White plagiarized most of her writings. The Church has been challenged by Walter Rea, author of the White Lie to prove that even 20% of her writings are original. They can't. Their weak defense was that there were no copyright laws in Ellen's day, so what she did was legal. You will never be told of her plagiarism by the SDA's.
As Ellen was rising to prominence, Joseph Smith had just died. Her writings contain many phrases used by Joseph Smith. Mind you, he has also been accused of plagiarism. I have a thick file of similarities, but time does not permit details at this time, but it does illustrate just how far her "borrowing" went. You will definitely not be told of her similarities to Joseph Smith at the Seminars!
You really won't be told about Ellen G. White's engaging in necromancy, communication with the dead, expressly forbidden by God in Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone...who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord..."
This particular necromancy occurred after the death of her husband James, whom she called "Father". She recounts the experience in a letter to her son published in "The Retirement Years" p. 161 - 163.
She begins her letter by stating that she was seeking God regarding her future,
"A few days since I was pleading with the Lord for light in regard to my duty"...
It is evident she believed this dream was in response to her prayers to God. James (whom she called "Father") appeared beside her as she was in a carriage. She reported he looked "very pale, but calm and composed". (After all, he was dead!)
She says,
"...I saw you die; I saw you buried. Has the Lord pitied me and let you come back...?"
We are not to have conversations with the dead, but Ellen and James converse back and forth about church matters and their health. At one point James foretells the future for Ellen,
"...Now, Ellen, calls will be made as they have been, desiring you to attend important meetings...".
James, her dead husband, goes on to tell her she must avoid taxing her strength by going to meetings and retire and write instead. He tells her "...Make this your first business".
Ellen now makes an agreement with her dead husband to stay in touch,
"Well, said I, James you are always to stay with me now and we will work together".
This would involve further communication with the dead. Ellen recounts that she then awoke and took the whole matter as being from the Lord in these words,
"...I feel no duty to go to Battle Creek...I have no duty to stand in General Conference. THE LORD FORBIDS ME. That is enough."
Well, that is enough to conclude, not only the letter, but the fact that Ellen consulted the dead and took it all as coming from the Lord. She indicated she wanted to continue this practice.
Can we trust this dream? No, of course not. How then are we to trust her other 200 or so "inspired by God" dreams and visions that occurred over her lifetime? We can't, if we judge matters by the word of God. You won't be told EGW practised necromancy at the Seminars!
Assorted Silliness
Often, cult research is tedious and boring. I am grateful to EGW for being humorous, ridiculous, and just plain silly. Her writings bearing her name are 17 times as long as the Bible&endash;plagiarized or not.
Many of them have to do with her doctrines on health and food.
As an SDA you will be encouraged to become a vegetarian. Ellen indicated that your salvation could be dependent on giving up meat . No meat-eaters will be "translated" at Christ's coming (Counsels on Diet and Foods p. 380).
You won't be told this scripture by SDA's
"...he who is weak in faith eats vegetables only..." (Romans 14:2). (Fun to read to vegetarians).
She taught in Counsels on Diet ..on p. 390 (some editions) that
"...if we subsist largely upon the flesh of dead animals, we shall partake of their nature".
Partake of their nature? This is against God's creation laws of "kind", and Impossible. Also conveniently forgotten is Paul view, "Eat anything that is sold in the meat market, without asking questions for conscience' sake." ( 1 Cor. 10:25). Obviously no vegetarians evident in the early church!
Most of EGW's concerns over diet were in an effort to control what she considered to be an excessive sex drive in the male. She devoted endless pages to discussing "secret vice" (masturbation) and blamed the practice for a wide range of diseases. Here, in "Solemn Appeal" page 12 are a few of the diseases said to be caused by "secret vice"
"...dyspepsia, spinal complaint, headache, epilepsy, impaired eyesight, palpitation of the heart, pain in the side, bleeding at the lungs, spasms of the heart and lungs, diabetes, incontinence of urine, fluor albus or whites, inflammation of the urinary organs... rheumatism, affected perspiration, consumption, asthma, catarrah, polypus of the heart, affection of the bones, fevers, ..etc. etc.
The cure for secret vice was even funnier. The perpetrator was to sit in a sitz bath at as low a temperature as possible. At the same time, he was to have a hot foot bath, while applying cold cloths to his forehead. He was also to wear an abdominal bandage or wet girdle at night "to good advantage".
She concludes, "Cool bathing of the parts affected is also beneficial".
To those SDA's who write me that I must be endorsing masturbation by making this public, let me assure you that this is not the case. Why don't they charge their leader with the same accusation? She wrote about it much more than I ever have! I am merely exposing her silliness in health matters. You'll never hear these ridiculous topics from the Adventists!
Thanks to Ellen White's influence, the Kellogg brothers were inspired to develop cold corn flakes, as hot porridge could "heat the blood" with undesirable results!
She sternly warned against using feather beds for the same reasons, but I found a letter from her asking someone to send her her featherbed! (EGW Vol 3, p. 341).
She also developed a "reform dress" on instructions from God, which was a bulky affair with pants under a long dress. She gave up on wearing hers finally, and so did the other women, after years of suffering discomfort.
Other assorted nonsense included Angels needing golden cards as gate passes to get in and out of heaven. (Early Writings p. 37-39),
She also "travelled" to other planets in her visions, and also claimed to have met Enoch (more necromancy). (EGW: The Early Years Vol.1 p. 114; p.157).
She taught that certain races of men are the result of amalgamation between man and beast. (SG Vol 3, p. 64,75). Which races? You won't be told this one at the Seminars, or even later!
Her silliness extended to wigs as well. Any woman daring to wear one would "...lose their reason and go hopelessly insane". (Christian Mothers, # 2, p. 121).
Well, that's about enough of the silliness. We could go on, but won't.
In conclusion, it is amazing to me that the SDA Church reveres Ellen G. White, choosing her visions, dreams, doctrines and teachings above the Bible. Other women had better run for cover, however, as they wouldn't dream of ordaining a woman in their denomination which is totally male dominated.
Adventists love to quote Walter Martin who was "had" by them as a young man and believed their statements without checking matters out closely, to prove they are not a cult. However, before he died, he made this statement on the John Ankerberg Show:
"I fear that if they continue to progress at this rate, then the classification of a cult can't possibly miss being reapplied to Seventh-day Adventism, because once you have an interpreter of Scripture, a final court of appeal that tells you what Scripture means, as soon as you judge Scripture by that, as soon as you have someone who has made doctrinal errors in the past, even on the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the atonement and other things, and that person is raised to that position or authority, you have polarization around that person".
By their own actions and stubborn clinging to Ellen G. White, her extra-biblical teachings, visions, and doctrines, the Seventh-day Adventists have placed themselves in the category of a cult. They certainly won't tell you this fact! They are a cult!
SDA's often make every effort to appear "evangelical", joining in with inter-ministry groups and trying to "blend in" with the Christian community.
However, make no mistake about it, they believe they are exclusively correct because they recognize and follow Ellen G. White. Among themselves, they mock the Christian's beliefs, calling our concept of salvation, "cheap grace". They privately consider themselves to be spiritually superior to the rest of us. The sources of many of the above points can found in more detail in the other articles on our web and in the book: SDA's and the Writings of E. G. White. Also in the doumentation book that goes along with the SDA video. (Available in our catalog).
I just read some of Kirkpatrick and Matsis sermons from GreatControversy.org. It amazed me how they intertwined the Bible with teachings by Ellen G. White and prefaced these teachings with phrases like: "Heaven gives warning" or The Servant of the Lord says" followed by something SHE wrote. And these aren't old sermons that are out of date - these are from less than a week ago. In some places a Bible passage was quoted, directly followed by an Ellen writing - as if her writings were just as important as scripture!! They also refer to her by using the word "Inspiration," as in "Inspiration tells us..."
dear hitman, thanks for answerin my question.i am very glad to know that you found your salvation and accepted it.. ya know ,ya never know till you ask .. never take for granted someone is saved less you ask em and make sure they done so..
and also dont pay me no mind bout how long your posts are or anyone else here.yawl write as much as you need to...
its just that i cant sit here at my desk that long right now.. i get too uncomfortable.. so i may have some more questions as i have time to read more..
i do agree with what linnie says here that we should never take the word of man over GODS word if theyre disputing the WORD.. or goin against the WORD. thats all from me for now.
