Thread: IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
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IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 23 Aug, 2009 09:41 AM
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
The answer as you will shortly learn, is "NO!"
There has been much debate over the tongues of what must be referred to a "modern pentecostalism!" We are not going to conduct an indepth exhaustive exposition of the subject of tongues, at this point, for it is not necessary to prove this one point, and that is, "modern pentecostals cannot all speak with 'THE GIFT OF TONGUES!'"
Please, allow me to explain.
First of all, I was in what may be termed "a pentecostal church," for about 11 years, so I know all about the subject of tongues, and that the scripture is VERY CLEAR about the spiritual gifts, and that "the tongues" that all pentecostals are encouraged to get, in order to demonstrate that one is "filled with the spirit," cannot be biblical, or valid.
Here is the passage Paul wrote, when he was confronted with the same, "so-called pentecostals," then, as we are now. There were men who claimed to represent the Holy Spirit, but something was very wrong with their tongues, as it is still the case, today. So-called charismatic or spirit-filled churches were springing up, claiming that they were pentecostals, with the gifts of the spirit; and so Paul addressed the administration of the gifts of the Spirit, and as you are about to learn, Paul shotdown their claims, saying that there was no such thing as everyone having the gift of tongues, at the same time.
"NOW THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF GIFTS, BUT THE SAME SPIRIT. AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATION, BUT THE SAME LORD. AND THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, BUT IT IS THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL. BUT THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO EVERY MAN TO PROFIT WITHAL. FOR TO ONE IS GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT THE WORD OF WISDOM; TO ANOTHER THE WORD OF KNOWLEDGE; TO ANOTHER FAITH BY THE SAME SPIRIT; TO ANOTHER THE GIFTS OF HEALING; TO ANOTHER THE WORKINGS OF MIRACLES; TO ANOTHER PROPHECY; TO ANOTHER DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; TO ANOTHER DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES; TO ANOTHER THE INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES: BUT ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND SELFSAME SPIRIT, DIVIDING TO EVERY MAN SEVERALLY AS HE WILLS!" [I Cor 12:4-11]
The GIFT OF TONGUES, was administered, SEVERALLY as the Spirit was want to do, therefore, it was NEVER GIVEN TO ALL BELIEVERS - in any church, which is what the pentecostals, each claim they possessed, in Paul's day, in every church, and that they still claim to this day!
So, you see, not all pentecostals cant have the same gift, for they were never adminstered in such a way!
Not all pentecostals are in fact, even true believers, as is evident by this passage where Jesus Christ, Himself says: "NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, WILL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN;BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY, LORD, LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? AND IN THY NAME CAST OUT DEVILS? AND IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? AND I WILL PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY!" [Matt 7:21-23]
Please notice that Jesus did not say that He would tell them to "depart because we had a problem," or because "you backslid"; He said that He will tell them that He "NEVER KNEW THEM!" For they are not of God, and their claims to "the gifts of the Spirit," are "iniquity," to Him, and His Father, which is in heaven!
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 05:57 PM
Dear Walter,
Let me clarify.
WALTER: Actually is doctrinally correct to state that the distribution of the gifts died out with the Apostles because it was only through the Apostles that the Holy Spirit distributed gifts.
Daniel: Base on what verse? Joel 2:28 specifically stated no Apostle is required. Acts did not said that gift can be only beimparted through Apostle. It only said that one of the power of the Apostle is to pass on gifts. You know there is exception then (in Acts), why there not now? Romans 1: 11 did not exclude others, it only said Paul can do this but never exclude other. In Romans 12, we saw evidence that spiritual gift. So is it contradictory? No, what Paul said is that so the church is established, that's why he is imparting some spiritual gift.
Walter: Simon made an important observation. It was through the laying on of the Apostles hands that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given. These were supernatural gifts. There are differences in gifts, some supernatural and some are not. If you look at the church of Rome you will see that they had not received any of the supernatural gifts that the Corinthian church had. Why? Because no Apostle of Christ had laid hands upon them. That is one of the reason why the Apostle Paul wanted to go to Rome....
Daniel: How can one regards the words of Simon as correct. His word is not the Word of God. What he said has no biblical grounds. In Romans, they have the gift of prophesy, no doubt this is supernatural gift. Even in Corinthian church, gift of help and administration is consider of spiritual gifts. There is no differences in gifts as supernatural or natural, all of them are from the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor 12 explains this clearly.
WALTER: Mark 16 explains why God chose the distribution to be through the laying on of the Apostles hands which I covered in a previous post.
Daniel: Again not exclusively the Apostle. Not mentioned in Mark that only Apostle can do this.
WALTER: There are differences of gifts. There are some that were only given through the 12 Apostles of Christ while others not so. Compare the Roman church to the Corinthian church.
Daniel: Which verse said so? You compare gifts from 2 churches, ignore the similarity then concentrating on the differences, then concluding there is differences.
Walter: Paul even made it clear that certain gifts would cease "when that which is perfect comes" and the gift of tongues would cease all on their own before "that which is perfect comes".
Daniel: When did the perfect comes?
Walter: I am not saying that God could not revive certain gifts like tongues today since Israel is a nation again. Let me quote how my Pastor put it.
"We take no definite position on whether God has or may at some point give similar gifts. But, we see nothing in Scripture to indicate a prophesied restoration of the gifts in the end times. The exception, of course, being the "two witnesses" in Revelation who will prophesy for 1,260 days, as forerunners to Christ's second coming.
The gifts recorded in the New Testament were permanent abilities given to specific people by the Spirit through the Apostles' hands. Despite the cessation of the gifts, God has always worked among His people in supernatural ways. He still heals and does all kinds of supernatural things. However, in the absence of the New Testament gifts, modern interventions by God are typically responses to prayers of faith rather than acts done by "gifted" persons." www.pfrs.org
Daniel: I don't know your point here. First you say supernatural gift stops. Then you say, there may be exception to this, later you said that acts done by "gifted" persons is not biblical. however earlier you said these persons may exist. So what is your point? Clarify pls. Is there spiritual gifts today? Is a yes / no question.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 29 Aug, 2009 12:39 AM
wow, this post is going on and on and on.. Good to get some more insight on this. Well, i can kind of see where Walter is getting at.
You see, no one today has the gifts which the apostles had, and no one after them ever had those kinds of gifts. The apostles gifts were equal to that of Jesus, they could heal anyone whom they were prompted to heal just like Jesus, irrespective of whether the person believed or not. Similarly they had the power of driving out demons, they had the authority, they had the gift of tongues, meaning to speak in another language when they addressed people of other nations, and they could use these gifts at their discretion. NO one after the apostles had the gifts that way. The Apostles were special that way. No one had the gift of healing like the way the apostles had it ,after the apostles, No one had the gift of driving out demons the way the apostles had it. Whatever healing happens now, and driving demons more happen through prayer than through authority. Like a person can pray for a person's healing. But he cannot heal everyone the same way Paul did, heal blind people, and make lame people walk instantaneously, (Whatever is shown on TV, most of it is faked) Even Paul did not heal Timothy when he was sick but instead told him to take wine. And No one now like the Apostles can lay hands and impart gifts to others, that was also reserved only for the Apostles, And if someone has any kind of gift today, it is individual, means the person might have a gift, but cannot impart it to anyone, nor does he have the same authority as did the apostles. It is true indeed that people who receive Spiritual gifts today also, but it is not the same as it was during pentecost. That outpouring of the Holy Spirit at pentecost was a special one, and more as a sign for people of all nations and for the church to increase dramatically. That ceased with the Apostles, I'm sure the gifts would have been given by Holy Spirit, but it is not the same way as during the times of the apostles when there were an abundance of Spiritual gifts. At least this is the way I can think about it.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 29 Aug, 2009 10:11 AM
WALTER: Actually is doctrinally correct to state that the distribution of the gifts died out with the Apostles because it was only through the Apostles that the Holy Spirit distributed gifts.
Daniel: Base on what verse? Joel 2:28 specifically stated no Apostle is required.
WALTER: Please show where Joel stated "specifically that no Apostle was required". No such language is stated or implied. This is simply a prophesy describing an event.
DANIEL: Acts did not said that gift can be only beimparted through Apostle. It only said that one of the power of the Apostle is to pass on gifts. You know there is exception then (in Acts), why there not now? Romans 1: 11 did not exclude others, it only said Paul can do this but never exclude other. In Romans 12, we saw evidence that spiritual gift. So is it contradictory? No, what Paul said is that so the church is established, that's why he is imparting some spiritual gift.
WALTER: Ok your first two sentences contradict each other. First you say that Acts does not say that gift can only be imparted through an Apostle and then you say it only said that one of the powers of the Apostles was to pass on gifts. You are right in the second sentence and you correctly made the observation that it was the Apostles that had the power to pass on gifts. No one else is said to have this specific power and no one else is recorded in scripture as having this power.
Daniel: How can one regards the words of Simon as correct. His word is not the Word of God. What he said has no biblical grounds.
WALTER: This is where you made some serious error. Simon did not record this information about his observation. It was Luke who wrote Acts and he was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so how can you say this is not the Word of God? The scripture rightly records what Simon observed. Let's examine this passage in more detail because I believe you are overlooking some very important information.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
It is important to notice that Phillip had been performing signs and miracles. Why or How? Because he had received supernatural gifts and was exercising those gifts but also notice that at no time did anyone RECEIVE any supernatural gifts nor did Phillip impart any gifts because he did not have that power. Notice that Simon also himself became a believer.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
It is important to understand the phraseology about "receiving the Holy Spirit". It is not talking about the Holy Spirit like when someone becomes Born Again/Saved, it is referring to "THE GIFTS" of the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Notice that it wasn't until the Apostles had laid hands upon the already Born Again believers that they received the Holy Spirit...meaning the Gifts. If it was not a necessity, if the mode of the distribution of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit did not require an Apostle OF Jesus Christ to lay their hands upon someone then it would not have been necessary for the Apostles to travel to these people in order to do just that. These people would have already received these gifts without the need for the Apostles to lay hands upon them. It is clear from the Word of God that mode of distribution was through the Apostles hands. That is waht scripture records as a fact.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
Simon made an observation. Luke recorded this observation. What did Simon observe? that "through the laying on of the APOSTLES hands the Holy Spirit,...meaning the Gifts...were given, i.e. imparted.
20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
Notice how Peter even confirms that Simon tried to buy this specific power that he observed that only the Apostles had. Peter called this "the gift of God".
DANIEL: In Romans, they have the gift of prophesy, no doubt this is supernatural gift. Even in Corinthian church, gift of help and administration is consider of spiritual gifts. There is no differences in gifts as supernatural or natural, all of them are from the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor 12 explains this clearly.
WALTER: Actually not all the gifts are supernatural. The Roman Church and the Corinthian Church had only one common gift and that was "prophesy". This can be easily explained because just like in Acts where Phillip had supernatural gifts being a disciple of an Apostle and no doubt an Apostle of Christ had laid hands upon him, the same situation could have been the case with the Roman Church. There is no doubt that the person who started the Roman Church had heard the Gospel message from an Apostle and received a supernatural gift imparted to them by an Apostle most likely while in Jerusalem perhaps at Peter's preaching. That is the only reason we can conclude why this gift of "Prophesy" was within the Roman Church. We also know that Paul wanted to go to Rome so that he could impart spiritual gifts. Other than this one gift though, the Roman Church did not possess any of the other gifts the Corinthian Church had.
Corinthian Church Roman Church
1. Word of wisdom 1. Gift of prophecy
2. Word of knowledge 2. Gift of ministry
3. Gift of faith 3. Gift of teaching
4. Gift of healing 4. Gift of exhortation
5. Working of miracles 5. Gift of giving
6. Gift of prophecy 6. Gift of ruling
7. Discerning of spirits 7. Gift of mercy
8. Gift of various languages
9. Gift of interpretation of languages
WALTER: Mark 16 explains why God chose the distribution to be through the laying on of the Apostles hands which I covered in a previous post.
Daniel: Again not exclusively the Apostle. Not mentioned in Mark that only Apostle can do this.
WALTER: Of course it is exclusive. Acts confirms this as stated above. Mark also confirms this. The grammar of Mark 16 is irrefutable.
Mar 16:20 And they [the Apostles] went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [the Apsotles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
What signs? The signs that the Apostles were performing. What was the most significant sign the Apostles did? The one Simon observed. The power to impart gifts of the Holy Spirit that no one else could do.
My day is getting away from me and I have much to do. This should suffice for now. I will answer your other questions after I return.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 29 Aug, 2009 02:51 PM
WALTER: Please show where Joel stated "specifically that no Apostle was required". No such language is stated or implied. This is simply a prophesy describing an event.
Daniel: Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
First, it is written that God shall pour my spirit upon all flesh, not only the Apostle. And it is written, I will pour not I will pour through the Apostle
Second, it is written that daughters are involved. Now in Acts 2 it is only the man involved so this prophesy is not for the pentecostal. It is an continuous act of God.
WALTER: Ok your first two sentences contradict each other. First you say that Acts does not say that gift can only be imparted through an Apostle and then you say it only said that one of the powers of the Apostles was to pass on gifts. You are right in the second sentence and you correctly made the observation that it was the Apostles that had the power to pass on gifts. No one else is said to have this specific power and no one else is recorded in scripture as having this power.
Daniel: No they don't.
Acts: One of the gift of the Apostle is to impart gift. (it is not equivalent to "gift can only be passed on through Apostle")
Joel: God impart gift to human by pouring out His spirit to human. (No mentioning of Apostle, and it definitely did not refer to incident in Acts 2 only)
OT: God impart gift to human directly.
Romans: Paul said he has the power to impart gift. (He never said that gift can be begotten only through him.)
So, "Acts did not said that gift can be only be imparted through Apostle" is true as it can be directly from God as noted in OT.
WALTER: This is where you made some serious error. Simon did not record this information about his observation. It was Luke who wrote Acts and he was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so how can you say this is not the Word of God? The scripture rightly records what Simon observed. Let's examine this passage in more detail because I believe you are overlooking some very important information.
Daniel: The title of the book said it all: The Acts of the Apostle, So, it recorded the acts of Apostle. Not a doctrinal book. Take the appointment of the twelfth Apostle. Revelation 21:14 state that there is 12 Apostle of the Lamb. So who is it? Paul or Matthias.
So back to Simon, what I meant is that Simon words cannot be consider to be correct, and His observation may be wrong since he did this with an evil intention. I think the following explain me better.
1."The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."" is actually found in Psalm, 14:1. So is there really no God or the fool get it wrong? The same case apply here.
2. The incident of Saul consulting Samuel (by that time Samuel is dead). Does it mean we can consult the dead?
Even if Simon was right here, this does not exclude the probabilities of direct gift from the Holy Spirit as it mere point out that this is one of the ways.
WALTER: Actually not all the gifts are supernatural. The Roman Church and the Corinthian Church had only one common gift and that was "prophesy". This can be easily explained because just like in Acts where Phillip had supernatural gifts being a disciple of an Apostle and no doubt an Apostle of Christ had laid hands upon him, the same situation could have been the case with the Roman Church. There is no doubt that the person who started the Roman Church had heard the Gospel message from an Apostle and received a supernatural gift imparted to them by an Apostle most likely while in Jerusalem perhaps at Peter's preaching. That is the only reason we can conclude why this gift of "Prophesy" was within the Roman Church. We also know that Paul wanted to go to Rome so that he could impart spiritual gifts. Other than this one gift though, the Roman Church did not possess any of the other gifts the Corinthian Church had.
Daniel: Are you saying that gifts in the Romans church is not supernatural, while the Corinth's is? You missed out that the Corinthians and the Roman share the gift of ruling ( or the gift of administration). In both circumstance, Paul said gift is given at the discretion of the Holy Spirit not the Apostle. so the Apostle never determine what gift you receive, it just impart the gift that the Holy Spirit want to give you.
WALTER: Of course it is exclusive. Acts confirms this as stated above. Mark also confirms this. The grammar of Mark 16 is irrefutable.
Mar 16:20 And they [the Apostles] went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [the Apsotles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
What signs? The signs that the Apostles were performing. What was the most significant sign the Apostles did? The one Simon observed. The power to impart gifts of the Holy Spirit that no one else could do.
Daniel: Can you see the differences between us? For you, all these verses is exclusive that it is only through them. For me, it is not, as it did not said so. There is no the word "only". This is further supported by the facts,
1. They are future prophets (I mean true prophets), an where did their power came from?
2. OT: many instances God give the gifts to people directly.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 31 Aug, 2009 11:54 AM
Hi Daniel,
Let's examine one scripture for the moment.
When Pentecost came the Holy Spirit descended upon those in the upper room. After some outsiders observed the events Peter made a statement that must be considered and kept within the context.
Act 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
The events of that day were a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophesy. I say partial because the last part concerning the Day of The Lord was and is to be later. Joel's prophesy, the first part, was being fulfilled "AT THAT TIME". We cannot take this part and assume that this was something that was going to continue into modern Christianity. To do so would be taking the context to far.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 31 Aug, 2009 03:33 PM
Personally, I think if we're going to take Mark 16 as a statement about how to confirm sealing in the Holy Spirit, drinking poison would be the best confirmation out there. So who's with me? Who wants to go first?
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.�
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 1 Sep, 2009 05:12 PM
I believe in the gifts of tongues and in the demonstration of other gifts (word of knowledge, healing et al) in our time. I am impressed too at the # of people here that believe in same, knowing how unpopular its become. The dissension, IMHO is a trick of the enemy - another simple attempt at disunity in the body of Christ. God help us all!
The trick about scripture is that you can almost find a reference to support any perspective. Putting it in context resolves many things but I would argue gray areas still abound.
Just a quick one on Mark 16 - I have a friend who recently got healed of cancer. She wasn�t one to say "no doctors" so she went through chemo and all. But she also held on strongly to God for healing (which she did get aside from the chemo - but that�s a whole book to write in itself). Anyways, she stood on Mark 16. She drank all the poison (as Chemo/Radiotherapy is supposed to do to some body cells) but she lost not a strand of hair. she had not a moment of nausea, not a single adverse symptom. God gave her that scripture and she held on to it. So should it be taken literarily? Its up to you!
I believe in the Holy Spirit and the gifts all the way. Couldn�t do life in Christ without it! I also believe in moderation and haven�t been known to attend �free for all� prophetic services where members of congregation come from no where and prophesy over you and �lay hands�, pushing people until they fall. I believe in falling �under the anointing�, not under physical force. I don�t fancy that because deception is ungodly and much of this congregational kinds are exposed to deception. Also I want my Pastor laying hands on me, and not just any strange person I don�t know. What all have they got that they are transferring by that laying of hands? Who knows � deception spirit, adulterous spirit, arrogance, etc?
On unity - I love the approach of a preacher I listened to not too long ago - he doesn�t believe in Pentecostalism but had a profound perspective on dissensions. He states: "On the White & Black, we stick with doctrine, on the gray areas, we seek respect and unity in the body". We often times miss that and want to doggedly push our perspective.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 2 Sep, 2009 11:54 AM
Hi Shunammite,
There are some misunderstandings that I need should be addressed.
SHU: I believe in the gifts of tongues and in the demonstration of other gifts (word of knowledge, healing et al) in our time. I am impressed too at the # of people here that believe in same, knowing how unpopular its become. The dissension, IMHO is a trick of the enemy - another simple attempt at disunity in the body of Christ. God help us all!
WALTER: I disagree and have presented scripture that clearly disagrees with you. What I think you are not seeing here is the difference between praying for someone and GOD does the healing as opposed to someone like the Apostles who would lay hands on someone and that person was healed instantly. No one is saying that GOD is not performing miracles today only that God has not given the power to heal people through the laying on of hands like the Apostles. That is a very significant difference.
Another thing I see that you are not distinguishing is that there are different types of gifts. Some are supernatural and others are not. If you look at the church of Rome and the church at Corinth you will see two separate lists of gifts. Corinth had supernatural gifts while Rome did not except for prophesy and in a previous post I explained this.
Tongues were a prophesy given for Israel to rebuke their leadership who would not accept the Messiah/Christ. With the exception of Pentecost and Phillips house, the only and I mean only times the Holy Spirit imparted gifts was exclusively through the laying on of hands one of the Apostles of Jesus Christ. Simon made that profound observation.
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw THAT THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLE'S HANDS the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
Simon observed that the Apostles of Jesus Christ had a specific power that no one else had and that was through the laying on of the Apostles hands the Holy Spirit gave supernatural gifts. The Holy Spirit decided which gifts to impart which the Apostles were the conduit by which the Holy Spirit worked.
The Apostles of Christ are no longer upon this Earth and they did not have the power to give others the power they had to pass on gifts.
After the Apostles OF Jesus Christ died, there were no more distributions of the supernatural gifts from the Holy Spirit. History is very clear about this.
My position on this is not of "the enemy" but what the scriptures clearly teach. I would say that the alleged gifts being practiced today are more of the trick of the enemy and a mockery to the Holyt Spirit as the tongues spoken today are not a known language but gibberish. The same gibberish that is spoken by cults and the occult. The same gibberish spoken by Mormons who deny the deity of Christ.
SHU: The trick about scripture is that you can almost find a reference to support any perspective. Putting it in context resolves many things but I would argue gray areas still abound.
WALTER: People do try and twist the scriptures to suit their bias however if one consistently adheres to the principles of Hermeneutics, (the established method of Biblical interpretation) without allowing personal bias, then the scriptures are clear. The problem is that many people do not like what it says when it refute their beliefs. They are unwilling to accept being wrong.
SHU: Just a quick one on Mark 16 - I have a friend who recently got healed of cancer. She wasn�t one to say "no doctors" so she went through chemo and all. But she also held on strongly to God for healing (which she did get aside from the chemo - but that�s a whole book to write in itself). Anyways, she stood on Mark 16. She drank all the poison (as Chemo/Radiotherapy is supposed to do to some body cells) but she lost not a strand of hair. she had not a moment of nausea, not a single adverse symptom. God gave her that scripture and she held on to it. So should it be taken literarily? Its up to you!
WALTER: The scriptures are suppose to be interpreted literally unless it is obvious they are not like when a hyperbole is used or a clear allegory. Mark 16 is to be taken at face value. The problem is that Charismatics/Pentecostals do not want to because it refutes their beliefs. Chemo medications are not what Mark 16 is referring to.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Deadly poison is a real poison that will kill you not just make you ill. It said it would not HURT them if they drank it. What about deadly snakes? Let's bring some Green Mombas to your next church service and get the congregation who profess to be Christians and pick them up and play with them and see what happens. Let's see how much they really believe they have these "gifts". I wonder if anyone would be so stupid as to try this.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe:
Notice that this is an inclusive statement. It means EVERYONE who believes. So either this is referring to those specifically who believed AT THAT TIME because the Apostles laid hands on them and they received these "gifts" or else EVERY single Born Again believer today should have these gifts / abilities without exception. It is one or the other.
Here's a test: Go to a hospital and lay hands upon everyone who is sick and crippled and see if they instantly get up and walk out 100% completely healed. This is where the rubber meets the road. This doesn't mean that God can't do as it simply means no human has this "GIFT" anyomore as the Apostles did.....as the scriptures state.
