It has been my experience that the answer is no. We all know and understand that HaShem is order, and that all things that truly show His Light and Love are as well. I ask that if you can't follow the simple request placed before you, please don't post on this thread.
Any debate on the Laws of HaShem, goes off the deep end, with passage after passage being posted. In just one post we may find as many as 15 if not more. This is an unproductive way to handle this, or any topic. As it can leave any one wishing to reply, with little option, Leave a post that is pages long, or leave a vague post filled with even more passages and little substance. This is what leads to endless debate with no answers, as well talking in circles.
For this reason, it is always best to look at ONLY ONE PASSAGE at a time. Now once that passage is called up, Both sides must look at it from both sides. i.e. Be ready and willing to argue the points you don't follow.
If the only thing we do is push one side of a topic, we fail to really look at the other side, and in most cases, fail to even hear the other side. So here is my propose, it is open to every one that truly wishes to open their hearts and minds to TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth, and not your churches truth. Rather BIBLICAL TRUTH.
As almost all study of OT vs NT is centered around the Law of HaShem, (Know here after as TORAH) the first thing that must be found is, "How valid is Torah today?" Not an easy answer for many.
So here we go.
When it comes to Torah, the one passage that comes up more than other is Mat. 5:17. So lets look closely at this passage.
(NLT) Mat 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
(KJ same passage) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
One must always take note of the passage opening. Here we are told not to think that something is Yeshua's reason for coming. From that we are safe to say that anything that follows, (until a change of topic) is what we shouldn't see as coming topass. After all He just THINK NOT, or in my words, (Don't put words in my mouth, or forget the important words I use.)
So let's do a full brake down of this passage. Looking at from both sides.
First we have THINK NOT, or Don't misunderstand. Both give the same thought behind the words. Just tell us not to entertain the idea that Yeshua came to do any of the following. So what is it he didn't come to do?
(KJ ) I am come to destroy the laws or the prophets:
(NLT) I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets.
If we read this passage for what it tells us, rather than what we wish it to say, we find that the Torah, and the Prophets are placed together. From this one should conclude that they work together, and we can not remove one from this passage with any hope of keeping the whole context of the passage.
Also, if we remove any part of this, then apply the new contextual meaning to the full passage, as well as any that may follow, do we not teach a lie, based on what we hope is true? SO any teaching on this passage must hold true to both Torah and prophets. With this understanding, one must walk carefully. If we say Yeshua removed the Law, nailed it to the cross, and so on, We also say that He has removed the prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Like His second coming, Judgment of all man kind, and many others.
(KJ) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(NLT) No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Now the most common word to be pushed by them that stand in opposition to Torah is the word FULFILL. So lets take a look at that word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill Has this to say.
a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house— Willa Cather
2a : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations— Leslie Rees
3 archaic : to make full : fill her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson
Now in this we find both sides, we find that it can mean to being to an end, yet we must ask, has it all been brought to an end? Are we wrong to say Yeshua will be coming back? After all He has brought to an end the Prophets, then that would also mean all prophecy has been fulfilled, or removed as they no longer hold meaning. i.e. there is no need for them.
Yet if we now look at this from a more contextual view, we know He must return for the WORD to hold truth. After all if any part of what the WORD tells us is not true, then we place our salvation in the hands of sin. Just saying.
We also know from the fact that Yeshua must come again, we must understand that He is still working to FULFILL scripture.
On the flip side.
At best I can here, so I leave something our please let me know.
This passage is clear that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, nailed it the cross, and removed it. He know that man kind can not live up to it's standards, and that to be held to that standard would leave us all devoid of hope. The passage is clear in that it tells us Jesus removed law. As is clear in your own use of Webster.
Matthew 5:17,18: Jesus says, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to **FULFILL THEM**! I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law **UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED**!"
Acts 3:18-20: This is how **GOD FULFILLED** what He had foretold through the prophets, saying that the Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus!! He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as He promised long ago through His holy prophets!!
Ephesians 3:8-11: Although I am less than the least of all of God's people, this faith was given to me to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches in Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom 0f God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to His **ETERNAL PURPOSE** which He **ACCOMPLISHED**in Christ Jesus our Lord. In Him and **THROUGH FAITH IN HIM** we may approach God with freedom and confidence**
The following Scripture proves that Jesus completely **FULFILLED** the OT prophesies and **ACCOMPLISHED SALVATION** so that we are no longer in need of the OT Law!!
Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, "**ALL AUTHORITY** in heaven and on earth has been given to **ME**. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to **OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU**. And surely I am with you always!!"
I Corinthians 9:21: I am under **CHRIST'S LAW**!!
Galatians 6:2: Fulfill the **LAW OF CHRIST**!!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the {**OT**} law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE {**OT**} LAW!!"
*WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!
Galatians 2:14-16,20,21; 3:2,5,10-13;23-25: Paul said, When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH AND NOT BY OBSERVING THE LAW, because by observing the law no one will be justified.!"
Galatians 2:20,21: The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3:10-13: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." **CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW** by becoming a curse for us!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!"
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was weak and useless; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: "The time is coming." says the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".... By calling this Covenant "NEW", He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and aging will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is Mediator is SUPERIOR TO THE OLD ONE, and it is founded on better promises.
Colossians 2:16,17: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a *SHADOW* of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ!!!
Matthew 24:35: Heavenand earth will pass away, but My Words will never pass away!"
Law can not be self righteous, it is only as righteous as it's giver. If you are asking how salvation was found in OT times, It was granted by HaShem to the faithful.
end quote.
That's right the Torah Law is not self righteous because it only points out what sin is, it also points to the righteous Law Giver of course! Again you are right and I agree that salvation was given because of FAITH in the OT as well as our NT times today! FAITH is the only means of salvation. Example, was Abram faithful and righteous?
Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
Was Abram/Abraham a Jew or Israel? Nope! What was the evidence of now "Abraham" to his righteous faith but not the means of his salvation? Genesis 26:5 gives the answer! Abraham kept the Torah Law, all of it!
But you kind Sir are breaking your own rules and getting off topic. Har har! Back to the topic. When I get time I'm going to show both views as I have had all my life! What you wanted someone to do but nobody has yet.
Trust me, if you are still here, and speaking in a friendly manner, I am here to help in anyway I can.
End quote
Yes. I am as brave as any Native American Indian and as harmless as a purring kitten.
Quote :
KJVonly
If you are willing, please tell me from 2 opposing view points what is meant in Mat. 5:17.
End quote
Wonderful chapter! So much material to absorb!
The law was a school master a prophetic shadow of that which was to come. As Paul states, the substance is of Christ. He is the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. He is the perfect sacrifice. He fulfills that aspect of the law, therefore the sacrifice was made one time for all and was not destroyed but fulfilled as the old covenant/Mosaic Law demanded BLOOD.
So when the law and prophets are fulfilled then heaven and earth will pass away as both stand in relation to one another but are not the same.
In context: until EVERY prophecy is fulfilled to its fullest, those prophecies which remain in need to be fulfilled
Most people today believe that Yehushua is yet to return and even some suggest that the fall feasts have not be fulfilled. Some are waiting on a literal new heaven and earth --a new "big bang" if you will!.... Since we have determined what fulfill and destroy means we need to look at the other words pertaining to the verse and their meaning: Disappear" and "accomplished".
That is, when ALL is accomplished, the Law and the Prophets will “disappear”, “pass away”.
In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:
For verily I say unto you, Till
heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
tittle shall in no wise pass from
the law, till all be fulfilled.
The World English Bible translates the passage as:
For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven
and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter
or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away
from the law, until all things are>> accomplished<<.
So in light of what we have just read, Yeshushua did not set aside anything, thereby destroying it.
Disappear:
Strong's Concordance
pasas: to disappear, vanish
Original Word: פָסַס
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pasas
Phonetic Spelling: (paw-sas')
Definition: to disappear, vanish
Brown-Driver-Briggs
II. [פָסַס] verb disappear, vanish (si vera lectio, compare Assyrian pasâsu, >>>do away, blot out (especially sins)); <<<<
Dictionary:
Disappear:
cease to be visible.
"he disappeared into the trees"
Similar:
vanish
pass from sight
cease to be visible
vanish from sight
recede from view
be lost to view/sight
fade
fade/melt away
withdraw
depart
retire
retreat
go
pass
ebb
wane
dissipate
be dispelled
dematerialize
evaporate
evanesce
Opposite:
appear
reappear
Similar:
die out
die
become extinct
cease to be/exist
be no more
come to an end
end
pass away
pass into oblivion
expire
perish
wither away
peter out
fizzle out
leave no trace
Opposite:
survive
live on
Accomplish:
Strong's Concordance
asah: accomplish
Original Word: עָשָׂה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: asah
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-saw')
Definition: >>do, make<<
Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. עָשָׂה2622 verb >>do, make<<< (Late Hebrew = Biblical Hebrew; MI23, 26 עשתי, l.3; l.9 ואעש, l.24 Imperative עשו; Old Hebrew proper name עשיו, אלעשה, מעשיהו; not Aramaic, and not certainly found in South Semitic languages; on Sabean see especially DHMSB Berl. Akkadian 1886, 849); —
Dictionary:
Accomplish:
verb
achieve or complete successfully.
"the planes accomplished their mission"
Similar:
fulfill
achieve
succeed in
realize
attain
manage
bring about
bring off
carry out
carry off
carry through
execute
conduct
effect
fix
engineer
perform
do
perpetrate
discharge
complete
finish
consummate
conclude
effectuate
Opposite:
fail in
give up
fill in (a form).
"once this form has been accomplished, the applicant needs to secure supporting documents"
**WE ARE ALL WAITING FOR THE NEW HEAVEN THE NEW EARTH AND THE ETERNAL NEW JERUSALEM**!!
**Except for the Preterists like KJVonly who believe all the prophecies in God's Word took place in AD 70???
Hebrews 12:26-28: God says, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens. The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken--that is created things--so that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a *KINGDOM* that can not be shaken let us be thankful...for our God is a consuming fire!
2 Peter 3:10-13: But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will DISAPPEAR with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and *EVERYTHING* in it will be burned up {NIV}. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you {**CHURCH SAINTS*} wait eagerly for the Day of God to come. {NIV} That Day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with His promise **WE** {Excluding the Preterists and the RC church} are looking forward to a New heavens and a New Earth, the home of righteousness.
I Corinthians 15:50--51: I declare to you brothers, that flesh and blood CANNOT INHERIT the *KINGDOM OF GOD*... Listen I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."
John 18:36: Jesus says, "My *KINGDOM* is not of this world....But now, my Kingdom is from another place!!"
Matthew 25:31-34: Jesus says, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory , and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another..He will put the sheep on the right and the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come you who are blessed of My Father, take your inheritance, the *KINGDOM* prepared for you!!"
**WE** ARE ALL WAITING FOR THE NEW EARTH, THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE HEAVENLY NEW JERUSALEM!!
Revelation 21:1-5: Then I saw a New heaven and a New Earth, for the {present} first heaven and first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the **NEW JERUSALEM**, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes, There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making **EVERYTHING NEW**!" Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are TRUSTWORTHY and TRUE!"
Hebrews 11:13-16: All these people {Abraham, Sarah Isaac, Jacob, Noah etc} were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were looking for a BETTER COUNTRY--a HEAVENLY ONE. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a *CITY* (The *NEW JERUSALEM*} for them!!
Galatians 4:25,26: Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the **JERUSALEM** that is **ABOVE** is free, and she is our MOTHER !!
The New Jerusaem is described in Revelation 21:9 to Revelation 22:5. The New Jerusalem will be 12,000 stadia long, high and wide as per Revelation 21:16. A stadia is 606 feet long which is the exact same length as the ancient Greek stadium. 606 feet times 12,000 equals 7,272,000 feet which is 1377 miles plus 1,440 feet. A mile is exactly 5,280 feet. {1377 times 5,280 feet equal 7,270,560 feet.} And so the New Jerusalem will be exactly 1377 miles plus 1,440 feet long, wide and high!!
Revelation 21:9-12,15-16,19,23,27; Revelation 22:1-6: The angel said to John, “Come, I will show you the Bride the Wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from from God It shone like the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel. It had a great high wall {1377 miles plus 1,440 feet HIGH!} with 12 gates, and with 12 angels at the gates.
The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the City, its gates and its walls. The City was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the City with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia {A Stadia is exactly 606 feet} in length, and as wide and high as it is long. {1377 miles plus 1,440 feet long, wide and high} The wall was made of Jasper, and the City of pure gold, as pure as glass. The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone....... The great street of the City was of pure gold, like transparent glass...... Only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be able to enter the New Jerusalem!
Then the angel showed me the river of the Water of Life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb {Jesus} down the middle of the great street of the City. On each side of the river stood the Tree of Life, bearing 12 crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month... The throne of God and of the **LAMB** will be in the City, and his servants will serve Him. They will see His face and His name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night!! They will not need the light of the lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign **FOR EVER AND EVER**. The angel said to me, “These words are TRUSTWORTHY and TRUE!!”
JESUS WILL WRITE ON US THE NAME OF THE CITY OF GOD THE **NEW JERUSALEM**!!
Revelation 2:18; 3:12,21: Jesus says, "To him who overcomes I will give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it... I will write on him the name of the City of My God, the **NEW JERUSALEM**, which is coming down out of heaven from My God....And I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."
According to Revelation 22:3 the only 2 thrones in the **NEW JERUSALEM** will be the thrones of the **FATHER** and of the **LAMB** Jesus Christ.
If you are willing, please tell me from 2 opposing view points what is meant in Mat. 5:17.
End quote
Wonderful chapter! So much material to absorb!
“””””The law was a school master a prophetic shadow of that which was to come. As Paul states, the substance is of Christ. He is the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. He is the perfect sacrifice. He fulfills that aspect of the law, therefore the sacrifice was made one time for all and was not destroyed but fulfilled as the old covenant/Mosaic Law demanded BLOOD.””””
True the Torah is the school master. If we work on following it, it leads us salvation. Please note I didn’t say it gives us salvation. Yet if Yeshua removed it, then by right we have no need of forgiveness of sin. The Word tells us this in plane language. Please see 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 5:13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.
So we now have a Biblical meaning for what sin is, and we can see that Biblically if we remove the law sin is not counted against us, so we have no need for forgiveness.
So when the law and prophets are fulfilled then heaven and earth will pass away as both stand in relation to one another but are not the same.
In context: until EVERY prophecy is fulfilled to its fullest, those prophecies which remain in need to be fulfilled
Most people today believe that Yehushua is yet to return and even some suggest that the fall feasts have not be fulfilled. Some are waiting on a literal new heaven and earth --a new "big bang" if you will!.... Since we have determined what fulfill and destroy means we need to look at the other words pertaining to the verse and their meaning: Disappear" and "accomplished". ””””””””
((Side note)) Do you know that Yehushua (ג'ושוע) is Joshua, and his name means HaShem is with us, And Yeshua (ישוע) means HaShem is salvation. The reason for pointing this out is clarity. I have been called John my whole life, so if you are talking to a close friend of mine, about me, and you say “Johnny said>>>>” That friend is going to think of Johnny P. Not John K.
For right now I am only going to say that the feast will become a major topic later. Yet to bring this out at this time is a bit much for a lot of people. It is one thing that leads to the circles. However as you have highlighted this beast, a high light of the many answers that topic will bring is in order. Prophecy must be fulfilled, if not then the Whole of the Word is based on lies. The feast are prophetic in nature, and they must all see fruition.
Yet from the other side of the coin we have the idea that they have. Dispensationalism is a topic that I have not been able to see both sides of, to my short coming. I do my best not to become pushy, yet I understand that anything I do say on the topic can be a bit pointed. So when we get to that in more than highlighted form, please keep that in mind.
As to the meaning of the words you placed before us, there is no debate as to their meaning.
You will notice that I over look post like the one you pointed out. I know they will be a part of this threat for a bit, though as with any class, (please as a teacher of Biblical theology I have seen them many times, and they seem to always go away when they get no encouragement or notoriety.
As to 18 being in the mix, that is a must oif we are to stay within the true context of this passage. However it is even more important that everyone be on the same page as to an understanding of 17. As I am sure you have seen, if this is not nailed down, a tread of this nature always becomes derailed.
The one thing that hasn't been made clear is FULFIL. As noted in past post, this word can have many meanings, as both a noun, and a verb. The wording of the passage leans more toward a verb once it is seen in light of the Word as a whole.
So I ask, would you agree that under this meaning and use of the word fulfill, one can see Yeshua as working to fulfill Torah even today?
I pray you will stay as it seems that when we get to the point of prophecy you will have much to offer. there will also much for us all to learn on that topic. Though we have not gotten to that point as yet, I will say this. There is still a lot to that has not seen fruition.
Since we have determined what fulfill and destroy means we need to look at the other words pertaining to the verse and their meaning: Disappear" and "accomplished".
