A young man emailed me on this site and questioned my calling to be a youth pastor because he said that women should not be allowed to be pastors. He quoted 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2 as his reasons. What are your thoughts out there? I'll post my response later, but I was just curious to hear what BIBLICAL references those of you might have towards this topic!
Praise the LORD JESUS CHRIST and Peace be unto you ole cattle.
The women were no doubt speaking in the Church at Corinth, a church that the Apostle Paul supported, yet he spake against it. My devotion is the the LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF and not to any denomination or non-denomination for that matter. So should be the attitude of very Christian.
It's not an act of hypocrisy to support a work and not agreed with everything that ministry is doing. It would depend on the degree to which that ministry is out of the way concerning whether or not you should continue to support it.
This is how change is brought about. GOD sent HIS prophets to HIS own people warning them to change their ways.
JESUS CHRIST was in the assemblies of HIS day speaking out against the ways of the elders of those same assemblies.
The Apostle Paul bore witness that a certain Prophet of the Cretians who spake out against his own (the Cretians) calling them liars, evil beast, slow bellies, was true. (Titus 1:10-13)
Martin Luther was apart of the Roman Catholic Church, but spake out against it's ordinances.
We are the salt of the earth as believers in CHRIST. Our committment must always be to the WORD of GOD, BY the WHICH we shall be judged in the last day. (John 12:48)
The overseer, elder, angel of the church in Thyatira allowed (permitted) Jezebel to teach and the LORD JESUS CHRIST rebuked him for it. I'm persuaded that it wasn't just because she was evil and teaching the wrong thing or else the LORD could have just mentioned her name, but JESUS said "that woman" You allow that woman...to teach. Rev 2:20
In contrast the Apostle Paul said "I allow not a woman to teach." (I Tim 2:12)
Then he said "nor' to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
"Nor" specifies two separate and distinct actions. A woman is not to teach (that's one); and a woman is not to Usurp authority over the man (that's the other).
Often times many just combine the two together and say "well as long as she's not over the man it's ok", but if she's still teaching then you are still out of order.
Then he tells us where he's referring to concerning these things "In the house of GOD, which is the pillar and ground of the Truth." (I Tim 3:15)
Many churches has changed the setup of the House of GOD to accomplish their own desires.
If GOD's WORD says that women cannot teach, then who are we to say, Ok we will allow (permit) you (women) to teach, but we will make certain provisions for it to be done?"
While addressing the church at Corinth's disobedience in this area, Paul said "What? came the WORD of GOD out from you? or came it unto you only? (I Cor 14:36)
No doubt, he was telling them that they didn't have the authority to do what they were doing. We are not to overstep our boundaries.
It's good to note that the angel of the church in Tyatira was not Hell Bound for allowing Jezebel to teach. (Rev 2:25)
But it's a matter of not breaking even the least of the LORD'S commandments, which affects one's status in the Kingdom of GOD (Matt 5:19).
dear thaddeus, i like the way you express yourself.. you express yourself well and respectfully.. and i appreciate that alot in you.. i like that you use scripture to back what you say as well. thats a big plus in my book.
i am guessing now that you do have a womens ministry in your church and that a woman is leading it..and im guessing that she is an older woman thats doin the teaching also.. just from what you didnt say... im also thinkin that your church and mine are tryin to stick to scripture as we see here in the chapter of a sound church..
titus 2:3-5 3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things- 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
i do understand that the church is not set up like they was in the older times i dont imagine they are.. and i cant say 100% for certain that theyre right.. just that there is a possibility that they are.. by keeping the womens ministry out of the sanctuary and not teaching the men or having authority over the men.. i do believe that the womens ministry is there to teach the younger women exactly what the above verses state.. and maybe more i really dont know. never been to a meeting hehe anyways i appreciate your willingness to discuss matters..and i do think youre a good man.
I really want to thank you for responding...you've gotten me to research my position on women in the ministry more than I ever have before and that is awesome!
First let me say that I believe the Bible to be Spirit-inspired, infallible, and 100% the Word of God. I believe it has NO error and that it has NO contradiction. As a "house divided against itself cannot stand" so too God cannot contradict his own word. I also believe that you have to be very careful when interpreting the Word of God because there is a lot at play here...culture of the day, language, interpretations, historical significance...this is why people go to school for years and years to become Bible scholars! This being said, if we use your interpretation of 1 Cor and 2 Tim with regards to women in the ministry, God would be contradicting himself and I believe we have to look at the meaning of the verses in context to the entire Bible before we can understand Paul's and God's intended statements.
In the garden of Eden when man and women were first created, Eve was created as a helpmate for Adam, not something for him to dominate. That was not the original plan. In Gen 2:18 the word "ezer" is used to describe woman which is translated "helper." In Hebrew this word means "suitable", "equivalent to", and implies no inferiority. God's original plan was for man and women to live in harmony and unity, not as one dominating another. Then the fall came and they EQUALLY entered into sin. This set up the corruption of the culture, allowing for hostilities towards the poor, sick, women, and unclean. Isaiah 11:6 prophesies the day when this will change and "the lion will lay down with the lamb" and so forth. But until then, our culture is corrupt, leading to the problems between men and women.
Now, Jesus came and he treated women with more respect than his culture did and went out of his way to do so (woman at the well, woman that anointed his feet, Mary, etc.). He died for men and women alike and gave the honor of telling the good news to the two women who went to the tomb on Easter morning--they instantly believed unlike their apostle brothers. Jesus died in part so that the Comforter, or Holy Spirit could come to us. On the day of Pentecost he came, baptizing 120 MEN and WOMEN in the Holy Spirit. The spirit was not discriminating between men and women and he gave freely of his gifts to both sexes. As a result of this unbiased indwelling of the Holy Spirit, women were involved in all ministry positions and activities, including apostle (Romans16:7); prophetic speaking (Acts 1:14; 2:15-18; 21:9; 1 Corinthians 11:5,10); serving as ministers, leaders, elders, or governors (Romans 16:1); coworkers (Philippians 4:2-3; Romans 16:3-5; Acts 18:2, 18-19); and gifted teachers who instructed men (Acts 18:24-26). So therefore, we can conclude that sex is not a factor in God's eyes. We are BOTH supposed to use these gifts in ministry and service to Him.
Now, onto your passages in 1 Cor and 2 Tim...Paul was the leader of several churches throughout the Mediterranean Basin at this time and wrote two letters to the church in Corinth and two to his younger brother in Christ, Timothy. All of these letters were supposed to instruct the churches in those areas on how to worship Christ because there were serious issues in those churches. In Corinth, which was a major trading center between the East and West, worldliness had entered into their worship. There was disorder in their services and and "anything goes" type atmosphere. Certain women in Ephesus (where Timothy was) as well were coming under false teachings and believing any wordly leader that was out there. I compare it to L.A. today where every fad and new age thing out there is being believed to be "spiritual". Paul had to address these issues and he did so in 1 Cor and 2 Tim. These heretical women should not be allowed to teach and should learn quietly. The word for "authority" used in these passages is "authentein" which means "to domineer" in Greek. Yes, women should not be dominating church services or their husbands. So in this context, Paul was punishing the women of these two specific areas, not saying that ALL women shouldn't be pastors or ministers or should just sit quietly wearing coverings over their heads. If so, that would be inconsistent with Jesus' actions or the creation story in the Bible and we both know that God does NOT contradict himself.
Praise the LORD and SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST and Peace be unto you my dear sister rkhteach.
These are your words: "If so, that would be inconsistent with Jesus' actions or the creation story in the Bible and we both know that God does NOT contradict himself."
This is my response, by the grace of GOD: Truly I agree that GOD does not contradict HIMSELF, but man does contradict GOD. (II Cor 2:17)
Remember there are different meanings of the word "church" in the Scriptures. Two of the meanings are referring to the Body of CHRIST and the assembly of saints.
Whenever you see women in the WORD of GOD, you never see not one of them teaching in the House of GOD (in the assembly of saints, in a teaching setting). In the instances in the Scriptures where women are forbidden to speak, it is referring to the order of the House of GOD. No Contradictions there.
Concerning the women you spake from Romans 16 and Philippians, you didn't see one instance where these spake in the church (meaning in a teaching setting, not just in a building). This is not to say that they cannot be of any assistance in ministry, because they obviously can.
CHRIST our wonderful LORD loves both men and women, no doubt, HE made us both.
This wasn't just an issue of the culture for Paul used examples to justify his (yet not his, but the LORD'S) commands which had nothing to do with the specific culture of the persons he was addressing. Such as:
"As also says the law" I Cor 14:34 Centuries before Paul's letters.
"As in All Churches of the saints" I Cor 14:33 This says All churches of the saints, those still exist in our time and culture. Right?
"For (meaning Because, as he gives direct reasoning) Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." I Tim 214 Way back to the very beginning, just as JESUS did with the issue of divorce.
There was a reason the devil was able to deceive the woman and not the man. Not saying that men can't be deceived, but that's another case all together. However, Men of GOD serving as teachers of the people of GOD, would not be those whom the devil can easily deceive.
Women may teach their children in the home as a mother to child as the book of Proverbs speaks of. (Prov 1:8)
Women may go around the city inviting people to CHRIST, as the woman at the well. (John 4:28-29)
Women may encourage other saints in the LORD male or female in their every day walk and evern prophesy outside of the assembly of saints. (Acts 21:9)
But in the House of GOD they are to listen without teaching/asking questions, during the time of teaching.
Concerning Bible school and spending many years there in, I've hear testimony after testimony of those who came our worse than they went in. Many Schools just as churches contradict one the other, teaching their interpretation of Scripture. I'm persuaded that most of that is about nothing but filthy lucre.
Now the Holy Scriptures gives us with these words on the subject.
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the Commandments of the LORD.
But if any man be ignorant (without pure, genuine, GOD given knowlege on the issue), let him be ignorant.
This is certainly one of the most hotly contested issues in our generation.
In my opinion women may and should take part in ministry. There was a woman who was ministering to the church in Rome in the days of Paul. Her name was Junia (not Junius!!!). Paul called her an apostle.
Besides, church history gives us sufficient evidence to say that the growth and spiritual health of the church could often be red out of how much women were involved in ministry. Think of the early church or the early days of the Pentecostal movement.
Thus, I think that ministry, be it pastoral or any other, is not something forbidden to women. Rather, they also have the spirit of God.
Having said this, I should also add that ministry is no more pleasing to God then any other vocation that a woman may desire to pursue.
although i still disagree with you on pastoring the church.. teaching the men..
as we can see back in genesis, woman was first decieved by the serpent.. she wanted to be wise like GOD .. as we can see in this verse here;
genesis 3:5-6 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate
see the woman took and ate the fruit and then she gave to her husband and gave to him and he ate. and then we see the consequenses for said actions..
genesis 3:16 -17 16To the woman He said:
"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."
17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it:
"Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
now as you can see paul is still teaching this in timothy ;and corinthians
1 timothy 2:11-14 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 corinthians 14:33-37 33For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
we can see that woman is not to teach or have authority over a man. that is why i still say that a woman is not to be a pastor of a church and teach or be in authority over men in the sanctuary of the church.
as we also know even way back in genesis that woman was not put there in charge over man then. but yet as youve stated and ive read she was his helper..
