Thread: Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
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Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 11:48 AM
Hi Everyone,
This article I wrote will be dealing with the issue of "Eternal Security" also known as "OSAS" Once Saved Always Saved". This theology is an off shoot from Calvinism's 5th point called "Preseverance of the Saints". What some of you do not know is that the belief of OSAS or "Onced Saved Always Saved" did not exist or come into being until the 1500s AD when John Calvin invented it. Prior to that, no record is found anywhere in Church history that anyone ever believed or taught this. The consistent view of Chritianity has always been that a true Christian could forfeit their salvation should they committ the one sin called Apostasy.
Those who believe in OSAS like Southern and Independent Baptists do will claim that if a person who is truly saved will never commit Apostasy or that if they do then they were never really saved to beign with. The problem with that philosophy is that it is not supported by scripture. If a Christian was not able to commit Apostasy, to deny Christ totally, then why did God in His infinite wisdon have numerous scriptures written to warn Christians of the potential of that very thing? It seems absurd for God to warn His saved Christian children if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. Let's look at some scriptures that deal with this.
Let's first deal with a passage where Jesus was giving a private teaching to His 12 Disciples.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
Let's look at what Paul had to say.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In the above passage Paul is making a very clear statement. He is stating that a person's salvation is "conditional" by using the phrase "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". The word "IF" is a conditional word and is in every translation written. 100% of all translators used this word for this phrase as well as the passage below. What both passages are clearly stating is that our Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our CONTINUED FAITH in the Gospel / Christ. It has nothing at all to do with works. It is our FAITH in Christ, but it is still our choice to remain/ continue or not to. FREE WILL.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note that Paul is not telling them of their need to obtain saving faith, but of their need to CONTINUE in their saving faith that they have already obtained and the consequence IF they do not continue which is forfeiture of their salvation. There would be no warnings if the threat and consequence of Apostasy were not real.
Paul consistently encouraged his readers but usually did so after he warned them of the dangers of committing Apostasy. Let me show you a pattern of writings he did regarding salvation, the dangers of "Falling Away" from the Christian Faith Encouragement to continue in the faith and how even he himself potentially could have become an Apostate or "Reprobate"/"Castaway"
Phil 3:9 � and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 � Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. NKJV
Acts 20:24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. NKJV
1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.NKJV
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (KJV)
There is an important analogy Paul is giving here. He is making it very clear in my opinion, that in order to receive an "imperishable crown" which we know is the crown of Life, we have to finish the race. We have to cross the finish line. Remember not everyone who is running in this race will cross the finish line.
Notice that Paul is saying that he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Jesus Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "reprobate" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard.
Paul is again talking about running a race. He must love Track like me. LOL Notice he is encouraging his readers, who are CHRISTIANS I might add, to run the race in such a away as to receive the prize. He is not making any guarantees or any implications that they would finish the race but he encouraged them to do so. This encouragement was also more of a warning to them.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,NKJV
Same theme. Run the race WITH ENDURANCE. Persevere to the end.
Mat 24: 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJV
Jesus laid the foundation above that Paul continued to preach upon.
2 Tim 4: 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Paul knew his time to die was coming very soon and he imparted some final words.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. NKJV
Paul was ready to die and he made it plain that he had finished the race and that he had KEPT THE FAITH. What is the opposite of keeping the Faith? NOT keeping the faith. Falling back unto UNBELIEF. APOSTASY. Forfeiture of one's Salvation.
There is a distinct difference between Arminian Theology and Weslyan.
Weslyan theology, which is what Assembly of God, Methodists and a few others believe, teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation by committing certain sins like adultery and fornication and then if the person repents then they regain their salvation back. That is simply not biblical and makes their salvation somewhat of a works based faith which is not biblical.
Arminian theology teaches that once a Christian has committed Apostasy, then they can never come back. They can never be forgiven again. Once salvation has been forfeited there is no more hope for that person. Coincidentally, this is also what the Earliest Church Fathers of the first two centuries taught. :-)
There are no number of sins or sins per se that will cause a Christian to lose their salvation. There is only one sin and one sin only that causes a Christian to "Forfeit" their salvation and that sin is called "Apostasy"aka "falling away." That is a total and complete rejection of Christ and His teachings. It is falling back to a state of UNbelief.
What is "Apostasy?"
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God.
Paul warned just as Jesus did that in the last days there WILL BE a "Falling Away" from the faith. In 2Thess 2:3 Paul gave this warning of an event that will occur. So what is it?
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
Apostasy is akin to a Divorce. A Christian divorcing from Christ. When this occurs, you are no longer His. You are no longer a Christian. You are no longer saved.
So how does this happen to a Christian?
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
Paul also related this same situation to the Christians in Rome. Paul was explaining to these Gentile Christians about unbelieving Israel and how some of the natural branches (Jews) were broken off so that Gentile Christians could be grafted into the vine. Then Paul gives a similar warning as Christ did.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NKJV
Paul was warning these Gentile Christians not to be haughty but to fear. In other words do not be so secure in thinking that it is not possible for you as a Christian to fall back into "unbelief" and be cut off from God just as some Jews were.
Conclusion.
The scriptures above clearly refute the False teachings of OSAS and "Perseverance of the Faith". Calvinisms 5th point cannot stand.
We as Christians have a responsibility to choose to continue in Christ, "endure until the end" or not to. God does not force salvation on anyone nor does He stop a Christian from committing Apostasy.
1Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 25 Mar, 2009 11:33 AM
Hi Leon,
You said: Jesus said there was only one sin that was unforgivable, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. To later add apostasy to that would make Christ a liar. Since we know God cannot lie, then our understanding of this verse must be skewed. What Paul was saying was, it is impossible for someone who is truly saved to fall away like that, because IF they did, this is what they would be doing. That is the only context that makes sense when the rest of the Bible is taken into consideration.
WALTER: I think you are mistaken. Apostasy is not adding to Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, it is merely the same thing or nature. Let's look at the scriptures.
Below Paul was addressing Christians, true believers and giving them a serious warning.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Let me first point out that the "sin willfully" part is not talking about sins in general...but a specific sin which is implied in the rest of this text.
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he.... WAS SANCTIFIED.... a common thing, ..AND INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
Do you see that this person WAS SANCTIFIED? Then because of his actions....he..."INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF GRACE".
Who is the Spirit of Grace? The Holy Spirit.
This is [Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit].
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.nkjv
Heb 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and.... HAVE BEEN MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
These are clearly and irrefutably Christians....saved people. Only saved people are "partakers of the Holy Spirit".
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 AND THEN... have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
(NASB)
Do you see a pattern yet?
What is apostasy?
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God. Heb 6:6 "It is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
The term "Falling Away" is the word we get Apostasy from. The Greek word is Apostasia.
G646
apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), ("apostasy"): - falling away, forsake.
G647
apostasion ap-os-tas'-ee-on
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
In essence this is describing a Christian divorcing themselves from Christ. Divorcing from THE Faith. Just as you cannot divorce someone you are not married to you cannot divorce yourself from Christ unless you are already with/IN Christ. You cannot "Fall Away" FROM the Faith unless you already had the Faith to Fall Away from. Are you seeing this?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 25 Mar, 2009 02:32 PM
Walter,
Let's start in verse 1, and let's use the NKJV. We have both agreed in the past that it is the most accurate of the translations. That way we won't accuse each other of translation shopping.
6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
6:2
of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
6:3
And this we will do if God permits.
6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
6:5
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6:6
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
This is a lesson being given. These are hypothetical scenarios. The author is saying, let's move away from the basics and discuss meat. Notice in 6 it says IF, it did not happen, and the author is clearly explaining what would happen, and why. It was not speaking of something that happened, but explaining why it could not happen.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in the context that we know of, was questioning if the Spirit was of God. Or more accurately, claiming it was not of God, but of Satan. That is different from grieving the Spirit, which is what you are speaking of.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 25 Mar, 2009 05:40 PM
far to many christians are more concerned about knowledge, than they are about knowing Jesus, Though it has its place, it is not as important as loving him
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 25 Mar, 2009 06:51 PM
nothing wrong with knowledge... i want to know my God... knowledge is knowing God. I love Jesus :)
anyways, walter please respond to my post on the word "if"... and the intentions of those warnings. if you can argue away what i said, then please do...
Jesus used the word " if" regarding himself, does that mean Jesus could have chosen not to leave? he was using "if", to let his desciples know what would happen "IF" he didnt leave, though it was a 100% chance that he was going to leave.
what was the point of him using the word "if", "if" it wasnt even a possibility? by your reasoning, it was completely pointless and absurd.... if you can answer that question, then you have the same answer for all the other reasons the word "if" was used.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 26 Mar, 2009 11:00 AM
Hi Jeff,
You said: "the church hasnt been right about a lot of things. from what i have seen, the church is always changing its views on things... it is also learning a lot more. that is why we have so many denominations... whats funny though is Gods word has never changed... just the interpitations. i think we know a lot more about the bibles meanings then did the early church. we are always discovering new things... a lot of which is claimed heresy thus a new denomination is formed... i think its a mistake to claim we now understand the bible 100% and that any new so called discoveries should be thrown away as heresies.
what era of the early church are we talking about?
WALTER: The Ante-Nicene Fathers are of the first 300 years of Church history before any influence of the Roman Catholic Church or obviously Reformed Theology. What you may not realize Jeff is that some of these Early Church Fathers are the direct Disciples of John the Apostle and Paul. We have the benefit of their writings, their commentaries which gives us an understanding of what was passed down from the Apostles to the Early Church. The closer we get to the time of the Apostles, the closer we get to "the Faith once delivered to the Saints". We don't base our beliefs upon the ECFs but we do see what was taught by them, passed on to them by the Apostles. To say that we have developed a more accurate or better interpretation then these men would be a great mistake. Do you honestly think that a direct disciple of John the Apostle who was appointed as a Pastor and leader of a church during John's ministry would be less knowledgeable or less wise than Calvin, Augustine-a pseudo gnostic, or Spurgeon? Or...do you think that Polycarp and Ignatius [John's disciples] might be significantly more enlightened and possessed the true teachings?
Ponder this. If Polycarp's teachings are in direct contradiction to Calvin's....who do you think is theologically correct? Calvin who derrived his theology from St. Augustine a pseudo Gnostic still influenced by Gnosticism... or... Polycarp, the direct disciple of John the Apostle and who was appointed as a Pastor of Smyrna during John's ministry?
This is what Jesus had John write to the church Polycarp was Pastor of when John wrote to the seven Churches.
Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." NKJV
This was a good church and teaching true accurate doctrines.
JEFF: to say that its not supported in scripture, you would have to rip some of those pages out of the bible, or use some white out... it is very clearly supported in scripture.
WALTER: No jeff there are no scriptures that support the belief that if a person commits Apostasy then they were never saved. If you think you have found any then please provide chapter and verse and give a good exegesis of it.
JEFF: even i can acknowledge how an arminian can use a verse to support his claim.(i once shared in this belief) but i think they are missing some points when they use those verses and reading them in a biased way.
WALTER: If you had a firm grasp of Arminian theology you would not be saying what you have nor would you have abandoned it. Are you saying that Calvinism is not biased in their interpretation? The sword can cut both ways.
JEFF: it is up to the arminian to explain those verses that support calvinism, instead of pretending they are not even there. i will try to explain those so called arminian supported verses.
WALTER: I have already gave a proper exegesis of the passages in question and have maintained Hermeneutics. Please demonstrate where I have violated the established biblical method.
JEFF: example, you say it is absured for God to warn his saved christians, if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. you are missing the very point of those verses you use to support this belief.
the mistake you make, is you assume if he is warning you not to rebel, then that means it is possible for you to rebel. that is the mistake... its an assumption you make and i think its a mistake a lot of christians make. but it is an assumption... all those verses you say are warnings, are just that! warnings! a warning is used for your own protection. God warns us to not turn from him. so what? you are quick to say "see this means you can commit appostasy!" no it doesnt... it means exactly what it says. in fact it is used to make sure his true children WILL NOT commit appostacy, If you are a true Christian, you would tremble at the thought of turning away from him, especially cause of these warnings... you would take his warnings seriously.. you -WILL NOT- turn from him. the FEAR of the Lord makes you tremble at such warnings, by way of the Holy Spirit. a non-christian on the other hand wont take his warnings seriously. God will warn them of eternal seperation, but they dont have the fear of the lord in them. they wont care... maybe cause one doesnt even really believe he exists... or one thinks he will wait to ask for Gods forgiveness on his death bed (thus being the other reason for the warnings), he would be with out excuse.
WALTER: Well that was very philosophical but with many errors. You are trying to "explain away" what the clear teachings of scriptures teach. If the theology that a person who was truly saved could not turn away from God, then it is pretty redundant of God to continually warn His Christian children of that very thing. If I warn my child to not place his hand on the hot burning stove, does that mean he would never do that? No! If God warns us that we should not sin does that mean we won't sin? No! do we still sin at times? Yes! Let's look at what Solomon said to David.
1Chron 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.
Why would Solomon warn David his son, that if he forsook God that God would cast him off forever unless God would do that very thing?
Let me show you another example of God's character and what He will do. In Hebrews 13:5 Paul quoted a part of Deut 31....."I will never leave you or forsake you". On the face that would seem to imply that God will never leave us or forsake us no matter what. Well not untill you read the entire context of Deut 31.
Deu 31:8 And the LORD, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed."
Looks great until you continue reading.......
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: "Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, AND THEY WILL FORSAKE ME and break My covenant which I have made with them.
Israel broke the covenant God made with them. Look how God responded.............
17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, AND I WILL FORSAKE THEM, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'
18 And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods. NKJV
God's character does not change.
JEFF:
to say it is pointless for us to be warned, is to say, we need no warnings in life. it is warnings that are keeping me out of trouble... it is Gods warnings of turning from him, that keeps me from turning from him, which means as a true christian i wont turn away from him.
WALTER: Sorry Jeff but your opinion is unsupported. Where are your scriptures to support your conclusions. You logic is also seriously flawed. God does not warn a Christian of the dangers of falling away unless the danger is very real and can and will occur. To say that a true believer will not fall away is also not supported from scripture. The very definition and nature of "Apostasy" completely contradicts your belief. Let's look at what Paul said "WILL" occur in the last days.
2Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless THE FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
Notice the phrase..."THE falling away". "Falling away" here is the word "Apostasy". What is Apostasy?
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings.... BY a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God and Paul said this is something that was going to occur. It was not a mere possibility or something hypothetical but something very real. Also notice the word "THE" in front of "falling away'. This is known as a "definite article". In Greek the definite article denotes something major. Another example of this is what Jesus said in Mat 24.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love [agape]of many will grow cold.NKJV
Unfortunately the English translators missed the definite article here before the word "many". It should read according to the Greek..."the love of THE many" will grow cold". Notice that the word "love" here is "Agape" . This is specifically Christian love towards God. Jesus clearly said that the love of the majority of Christians towards God will grow cold. This is not something hypothetical but something very real and is going to occur and is occurring. Let's continue....
JEFF: the holy spirit will not leave me, and will not let me leave. if the Holy spirit enters you and then leaves you, that to me is completely pointless.... thats absurd. whats the point of the holy spirit of ever entering you if God knew you were going to rebel in the first place. The role of the Holy Spirit is to change you. its to convict you of your sin... it guides you, it changes you. if you are able to commit apostacy, then the holy would have failed its purpose.
WALTER: This is where Calvinism has skewed your way of thinking. Christ did His part at the cross and resurrection and offers this free gift to all who will accept it.
1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.(KJV)
1 Timothy 4:9,10
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (KJV)
Man has FREE WILL to accept Christ or not to and even after accepting Christ man still has FREE WILL to later reject Him. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit failing His job. God never promised us that He would never leave us. It has always been conditional upon our CONTINUED FAITH in Christ.
2 Tim 2:12-13
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, HE ALSO WILL DENY US
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.(KJV)
This is the ultimate paradox. If a Christian commits Apostasy and God is faithful then He would be denying Himself to allow the Holy Spirit to remain in a now unbeliever.
JEFF: Paul tells us that "the goodness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4). the Goodness is of God leads you to repentence... not the goodness of yourself. and to repent is to have a change of mind.
WALTER: There is no argument here but the verse has nothing to do with continued faith and Free Will of the believer. Repentance is not an issue here except that an Apostate does no longer have the ability to repent. I will address this later.
JEFF: "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin [until the Holy Spirit convicted us to repent and come out of sin], yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin [forgiven and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ], you became slaves of righteousness [right doing and adherence to God's laws]" (Romans 6:17-18).
a slave can not free himself. he is a slave... in order for a slave to free himself he must have some power over his master. we have no power over God
WALTER: You are using flawed human philosophy here and reading your belief into the scripture.
JEFF: "If you love me, keep My commandments," He told them, "and I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper [the Holy Spirit is to help, strengthen, nurture us], that He may abide with you forever" (John 14:15-16).
it doesnt say "that he may abide in your forever unless you commit apostacy."
the word forever means... forever. and i saw no condition in that verse.
WALTER: You need to pay closer attention to the grammar. Notice the words..."that He MAY abide in you. The word "may" in Greek is the same in English and denotes a "possibility" not a certainty. You also are failing to realize that just because a verse does not say Apostasy" does not mean it is not possible. No one verse was ever intended to be a theological treatise on the issue of salvation and apostasy. You are ignoring some basic interpretive methods. Do you think that one verse because it does not mention a condition of Apostasy that it somehow nullifies the other passages that do?
JEFF: John 16 records more of Christ's instruction about the role of the Holy Spirit. "It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send [it] to you" (verse 7).
notice how Jesus says "IF" i do not go away... walter i could say then "it must be possible for Jesus to not go away, since he used the word "IF". whats the point of Jesus using the word "IF" if it wasnt even possible for him to choose otherwise? would you say Jesus could have chose not to leave? NO, because it was His fathers will! even Jesus said about this to his father, "not my will, but yours be done"
the word "IF" does not mean that there are 2 possibilities. IF can be used to warn or keep one on the right path. (though it may not happen, or even be destined to happen)... though they may be possible. if its Gods will it wont happen. if it was possible for a christian to commit apostacy, but it wont happen. what if? doesnt mean it will or that it could. it helps us to understand the other scenario, so we are careful to avoid it, so that it wont happen... it is in no way pointless to use the word "if" in a one possible outcome scenario. Jesus used it and so did God. in many cases when God used If, it kept his people from falling away. True christians will hear these warnings and will obey them.
WALTER: The word "IF" is a conditional word. You are trying to explain it away but your logic is flawed. There is no point of God, Jesus and the Apostles warning us Christians to not fall away unless we can fall away....commit Apostasy. I have demonstrated also in the Greek grammar the definition and nature of Apostasy and there is just no way to escape this meaning. Only a Christian can commit this act, this specific sin which is a forfeiture of one's salvation.
Rom 11:20-22
20 Well; because of.... UNBELIEF... they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, BUT FEAR:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEAST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS:...>> otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (KJV)
A clear irrefutable warning to Christians to not fall back into a state of...UNBELIEF. That is Apostasy.
JEFF: paul is warning the church as a whole... not just christians, and not just non-belivers... Paul doesnt know who is genuine, and so he speaks to them as a whole... the weeds will be weeded out by his warnings, while the plants will grow closer to God by his warnings... those are the 2 functions of the word "if"
WALTER: I am sorry Jeff but you are making an assumption that the scriptures do not support. Paul was writing to the local Churches and assumed they were saved.
Rom 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Philip 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy,
5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now,
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Thess 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers,
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
Philm 1:2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God, making mention of you always in my prayers,
5 hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints
Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
I hope you see that every Epistle was written specifically to true Christian believers with the clear indication that the author believed they were saved.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 26 Mar, 2009 11:49 AM
Walter,
You can no more explain away all the verse that prove election, than I can explain away the ones that teach free will. That has to mean that both sides are WRONG, and the truth lies somewhere else. I know Armenianism is what you church teaches, but they are wrong, flawed, mistaken. Just as the churches that teach Calvinism are wrong.
What? Are we going to have a scripture war, with both sides posting hundreds of verses? That is what I thought about doing, but what does it prove? It does not prove my side is right, all it proves is that the other is not right. We can do that, but it seems pointless.
I think we have both let pride catch us up in this. I know I can disprove the Armenian view with scripture, but I also know you can disprove Calvinism with scripture. Can we both explain away the verses used by the other side? Of course we can, but it is obvious to everyone that it is a sad attempt to try to be right, and it is twisting the scriptures.
You keep asking someone to show you where you violated Hermeneutics. Okay, when you started a study without understanding the whole picture and taking ALL of the verses into account in your study is one way you are in violation. Another is starting your study with a preconceived idea of the outcome you were seeking. Both are major violations of any study, regardless of the method of study. They are also why so many people discredit these forms of study, because of the bias of the person doing the study. It has given any word study a bad name.
You can continue to try to prove a false doctrine (As both sides are), but I am moving on to more profitable things.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 26 Mar, 2009 07:48 PM
well walter, you do seem to be very knowledgable about what you are talking about, and you have corrected me and on several things, i confess :). but you still have not explained away calvinism... all you have done was reinforce those verses that seem to support arminiasm. your lack of knowledge of those verses used by calvinists does suprise me however.
honestly i dont consider myself calvinist or arminian. there is to much human "Logic" in both of the interpitations... to many contradictions. one side give a list of arminian supporting verses, but ignore the calvinist supporting verses by saying "they dont exist" as if you "will" those verses out of the bible with your own free will. but calvinists do the same. they are both always on the defensive, but never on the offensive which leads us to a stale mate...
i believe i found an article that explains calminian ;). i just read it... its makes the most sense... it is neither calvinist nor arminian.
here it is
Introduction:
First we will deal with the subject of Election and then Free Will. I want to first say that there are two extreme camps on this doctrine and they are polar opposites and both contain some truth and some heresy. The one says it is all God�s choosing and man�s free will has no part or place whatsoever (Calvinism) and the other the opposite, that it is all man�s free will and choice rather than God�s choice. The reality is that there is a part and place for both, though it is mostly God�s doing and grace. All we do is respond to His Grace, yet in His Omniscience, He knows who will respond and how we will respond to Him and that is why He knows who to call, whether Moses, Abraham, Samuel, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, his apostles or whomever. Yet even then, the free will we were given to choose, because we were not made robots, still remains and therefore one who once choose to serve the Lord can turn back from serving Him, whether the prophet Balaam, King Saul, Judas or Demas.
This is shown also in the parable of the sower and the seed in Luke 8:5-15. The first kind of heart (soil) was represented by the wayside, where Satan steals the seed before they believe the gospel. The next two kinds of hearts, where the seed is sown among the rocks and among thorns represent those who receive the Word of God and believe it, but then after a season turn away due to either (1) persecution or (2) love of the world, like Demas and so they don�t go on to bear �fruit to perfection� or eternal life. Finally, the good soil is the heart that not only received the Word, but keeps it and remains in the Lord and bears fruit unto eternal life. I call those four kinds of hearts, the careless, then the casual and the carnal believer and lastly the careful believer, who remains and endures unto the end according to Mark 10:22 ��he that endureth to the end shall be saved.� Only one of the four hearts endured unto the end and will be saved. The others all perish.
Our biggest part in our salvation is enduring unto the end, walking with Jesus and keeping the faith. Yet, God knows who will be faithful and who will know, as He knew Judas would betray Him from the beginning, but still picked him, so that His Word could be fulfilled. He knew what Judas would do, but God didn�t make Judas betray Christ, but allowed and used what He knew Judas would do, for His own glory and purposes. That is what God has been doing with mankind and sinners all along and even now, using them for His own purpose. Romans 9:21-23 �Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,�
Election:
We will begin with these verses. Titus 1:1: �Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of GOD'S ELECT and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness." Romans 8:33: "Who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth." Matthew 24:22: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for THE ELECT'S sake those days shall be shortened." So we know there is an elect for they are mentioned again and again in scripture.
It is an indisputable Biblical fact that God has an elect people. Personally, I've never known of anyone who denies that fact because too many scriptures speak of the elect. The real argument is about when and how God's elect became God's elect. Did they become God's elect when they believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ, or did they come to believe in time because they were God's elect from eternity? Let God�s Word speak for God: I Peter 1:2: "ELECT ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE FATHER." So now we begin to see the basis of this election.
We know that God is omniscient and therefore God knows everything about everything, and has always known everything there is to know about everything and everybody. Plenty of scriptures tell us that He knew us before we were born. And specific prophecies were given of many hundreds or thousands of years in advance, as prophecy of Judas and his betrayal of Christ and the prophecies of John the Baptist and his ministry and many more. Then there are verses like Isaiah 48:8 �I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.� Jeremiah 1:5 �Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.� Speaking of a heathen king name Cyrus in Isaiah 45, we read about him in Isaiah 45:4 �For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name:� Then in verse 5 God says of Cyrus, �I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:� This is speaking of the fact that God had raised him up for a specific purpose, according to His will and foreknowledge.
Then there is this undeniable scripture about the foreknowledge of God is Romans 9:11-13 �(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand, not of works, but of him that CALLETH;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.� So here we see it is a matter of being called by God. The elect are also the called of God, or called out ones.
However, "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" goes even further than that, as it is stated elsewhere in Scripture in Romans 8:29-30: "For WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, WHOM he did predestinate, THEM he also called: and WHOM he called, THEM he also justified: and WHOM he justified, THEM he also glorified" John the Baptist put it this way in John 3:17 �John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.�
God did not merely foreknow 'about' His elect, but He foreknew them personally and intimately from eternity and He knew them by name. This is easily proven elsewhere in Scripture, as God has had all the names of His elect written in the book of life from before the foundation of the world, before creation began. Those who are not His elect; do not have their names written in the book of life, because they have been omitted. There are no new names being written down in glory if we believe scripture rather than the words of a popular song that says �there�s a new name written down in glory, and it�s mine...� God�s Word declares in Revelation 17:8:
".....and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...."
Many erroneously believe that God merely foresaw from eternity those who would believe in time. Thus, they believe that God's election in eternity was based solely upon God's foreknowledge of what man would do in time. They think that salvation is man�s initiative and choice and so when a sinner comes to Christ, then his/her name is added to the book of life and they become part of the elect. If it was up to man to choose God, if salvation was initiated by man or his choice, then not one person, fallen in Adam, would have ever been elected, nor saved for the Word of God declares in 1 Corinthians 2:14: "But THE NATURAL MAN receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned."
The natural man, fallen in Adam, unregenerate in spirit is spiritually dead. Neither CAN he know or understand the things of the Spirit of God for God has to give us the understanding, He has to open our spiritual eyes that we might see and our spiritual ears that we might hear, otherwise we are spiritually blind and deaf to the things of God. Let me make a little story to show the meaning of the word CAN. Many times I would ask my mother (as a child), �mother can I do this or that.� Normally the reply is a simple �yes you may� or �No you may (or can) not� CAN implies and denotes the ability to do something. It is the same as if she said, �I suppose you are able, but no you can not.�
The natural man lacks the inward ability to know or understand anything that is of God. A man may without the Spirit of God come to know spiritual things of the Devil, the demonic, as in witchcraft and familiar spirits, but He cannot know true spiritual things, the things of God. Why? �for they are foolishness unto him:� The things of God sound foolish to the sinner until God opens His understanding and the light shines into the darkness of his/her soul. 2 Corinthians 4:4 says; �In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.� God has to open their minds to receive the truth.
Romans 3:10-11: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: THERE IS NONE THAT UNDERSTANDETH, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD" Natural man, fallen in Adam, still in sin, left to himself, can never understand, nor know Spiritual things or come to Christ on his/her own. Therefore, he will never seek God, no, not even one. Contrary to popular opinion, natural man does not have a free will to understand the things of God; to know the things of God; nor to seek God. Obviously, something must happen to natural man to enable him to understand, know, and believe Spiritual things. In John 6:44 Jesus said: "No man CAN come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Then again after explanation Jesus speaks in John 6:65 �Therefore said I unto you, that no man CAN come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.� In this passage, the previous Verse, 64 says �But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.�
"NO MAN CAN COME TO ME." That means that no man, not even one, has the ability to come to Jesus by his own natural volition. No, not one! Free will has never saved anyone! Natural man must be drawn to Jesus by the will and power of God the Father, not by the will of natural man and that is why Jesus declared in John 15:16 �Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:� That is why men repeating a �sinners prayer� after a preacher is meaningless unless God the Father has drawn them, opened their spiritual eyes and given them a revelation of Christ and of their own sin that they might repent and be born-again, not just have a religious experience.
The Scripture says in John 1:11-13: "He came to his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: WHICH WERE BORN, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD."
According to the Bible, salvation is specifically and only by the will and grace of God. As many as received him, received him because they had their minds opened to see the truth of Christ and were given the power by the Holy Spirit to become sons of God by believing on His name, which in other scripture means they did something with what they were given by God for to believe means to act on that which you believe. They were given the faith to believe and they acted on that faith and repented of their sin and received Jesus as their LORD and SAVIOR, for if He is not LORD then HE is not SAVIOR. That is the meaning of Romans 10:9 �That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the LORD Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.� This means that you make a personal confession of Jesus as your personal LORD, that just that He is Lord, for the devils in hell know and believe that, but still will perish. When you are given the faith to believe, you repent of your living independently of God and leaving Him out of your life. James 2:19 says; �Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.� The devil�s believe and tremble, they fear the judgment coming to them and when you realize the truth of your sin, you will fear judgment and repent of your sin too.
Back to John 1:13 "WHICH WERE BORN (past tense), NOT OF BLOOD, meaning that salvation is not inherited from our father and mother. God has no grandchildren; only sons and daughters. Those who received him were born (past tense), not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, because natural man has no will to seek God. "Which were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD." They, which were called by God and "WHICH WERE BORN OF GOD" were given power to believe on His name and be born again by His Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit to open the darkened and blinded mind of man and draw man to Christ and convict him of his sin and need of salvation that leads to repentance must, of necessity, precede all action in natural man's salvation. Then, and only then, does any man/woman have the genuine ability and desire to respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ through putting their faith in the finished works of Calvary and the blood of Jesus for their salvation and repent of their sin against a Holy God. God uses the means of the gospel to bring His elect to the saving knowledge of their predetermined salvation.
In John 3:3 Jesus said: "Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, HE CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God." Natural man does not have the ability to see, nor understand, Spiritual things until his spiritual eyes are opened by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 2:4 declares; �the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?� You don�t choose repentance, He leads you to repentance unto salvation. When it suits the plan and purpose of God, He quickens whomsoever he pleases while they are still dead in their trespasses and sins by the power of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:1, 5 says: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:� Even WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, HATH QUICKENED US together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)." It was not us, but Him. He does it all. He draws us, He convicts us, He opens our eyes to see the truth, He give us the faith to believe, He does the work in us and it is all by His grace and mercy and our acceptance of His offer and putting out faith, the faith that came from Him to being with, in Him.
Titus 3:5 �� according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.� Romans 12:3 �� according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.� Romans 10:17 �So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.� He causes us to hear and faith comes as we believe what He is speaking to our hearts.
Yes, dearly beloved, by the grace of God we were enabled to believe in time because we were God's elect from eternity, because He choose us in Christ. Again, the Word of God declares in 2 Timothy 1:9: (God) "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN." And again in Ephesians 1:4: "According as HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." Again, in 2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because GOD HATH FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU TO SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
CHOSEN BY GOD OR BY THE WILL OF MAN?
For those who might think I am a Calvinist, I want to say that I am not. Neither am I Armenian. I have not read much of either or quoted them in any way.
Jesus clarified this in John 6:37. "All that the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." The Father only draws those who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Luke wrote in Acts 13:47-48, "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Please note: The Word of God does not say, as many as believed upon Christ were ordained to eternal life! He said, "AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED." They were ordained to eternal life long before they believed. "As many as" these are qualifing words, limiting it to those who were ordained to eternal life. "Were ordained" both of these words are in the past tense. The "as many as" "were ordained" beforehand. Who ordained them to eternal life beforehand? Yes, it was God the father. "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Only those who were foreordained to eternal life by God the father, before the foundation of the world, believed. This is the crystal-clear teaching of Jesus Christ and all the New Testament writers. In John 10:27 Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Obviously, those who continually refute this doctrine simply can not hear the voice of Christ Jesus and His apostles and New Testament prophets who spoke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and what they wrote is not up for opinion or discussion.
Jesus repeated what he said in John 6:44 again in verse 65 of the same chapter: "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." What do you think happened immediately after Jesus said it again? Let's read the next verse, "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him" (John 6:66). There is free will, �many� went back� walked no more with him.� We are free to accept or reject God�s offer of salvation, to follow or to not follow Jesus. Some never accept, as those we mentioned whose hearts were represented by the wayside in the parable of the sower and the seed. That was like the rich young ruler that Jesus met and called to follow Him, but first he had to deal with the idolatry in his heart called the love of and dependence upon money. So when Jesus told him to sell what he had and give to the poor and come follow Him, the rich young ruler went away sad, rejecting both the calling of God and salvation. Matthew 19:21-26. When the disciples heard this and what Jesus said about the rich, they said, �Who then can be saved� speaking of which rich person or person with riches. But it is not that you have riches but whether or not the riches have you, which is idolatry, if riches or things or anything is more important to you than Christ. For then, that is your god, for it is more important to you than Him and His salvation.
So remember, (1) Not all are called of God and (2) not all accept the call of God and (3) not all remain with God. Therein is your free will, and yet from scripture I believe that God knows all three from the beginning, who He would call, who would accept the call and who would remain faithful to serve Him. Those He knows some will turn away, as Judas, yet God chooses to give them a chance. God is God and He chooses upon whom He will show mercy. It is not our choice, but His.
Therefore Scripture tells us in Romans 9:15-18 �For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.� God is God and HE does His good pleasure. Verses 19-21 �Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?�
Man can never know or understand everything and all the ways and doing of God. Simply put; Deuteronomy 29:29 �The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.� We can only know what He chooses to reveal to us, nothing more.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 26 Mar, 2009 07:54 PM
i like this article so much i am going to post a new topic with this article, that way it wont be missed by people who dont feel like looking at old topics
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 26 Mar, 2009 10:32 PM
Hi Jeff,
Let's do this. Our posts keep getting longer and as they get that way we will lose people from reading them. People, in general, do not want to read long posts and long commentaries and then it gets to be more cumbersome to respond and then address every detail. I can address every scripture that Calvinists "claim" supports their belief. If we want to do this we should address each "plank" of Calvinism piece by piece.
It is important to understand that Calvinism beliefs are dependent upon each plank. The T.U.L.I.P. is a system invented by Calvin who derived the majority of his beliefs from St. Augustine. The foundation is the "T"...Total depravity of man. Each plank after that is then dependent upon the previous planks. I first addressed the "P"...Perseverance of the Saints" as that is the Fifth and last plank and the natural extension of the first four planks. It is important to also understand that this plank was something Calvin invented and prior to his invention of it, that belief never existed in church history. Even St. Augustine taught differently. He taught that a true Christian could commit Apostasy and forfeit their salvation if they did not receive a special gift of "Perseverance" from God. I can find his quotes on this but it is late and I am in need of some well deserved sleep. LOL
James Arminius who was a former Calvinist, later...after much study of God's word, realized that Calvin's teachings were not biblical and Calvin's interpretations were skewed. When those who believed as Arminius did were asked to present their "remonstrance" to the leaders of "The Church", who were all Calvinist, it was really a heresy trial, the Calvinists then persecuted the Arminians even to death. Even Calvin condoned the murder of those who disagreed with his theology. Does not sound like the fruit of the spirit to me...but that is another discussion.
Neither belief system can be merged with the other as they are opposed. I do believe that Arminian theology is the only one that is biblically sound and there are no contradictions in it. The inherent problem when discussing this is that many times when we examine a scripture Arminians seem to have to comply with the Calvinist interpretation as being the standard of truth.
I think we need to address this as I said...piece by piece. I believe we should go slowly so as not to lose anyone and let's start with the "T"...total Depravity of man.
What are your thoughts?
By the way where was it that I corrected you that you now agree to? :-)
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 26 Mar, 2009 11:32 PM
well, i believe i have found the truth... it was my previous post which was a copy and paste. it is in between calvinist and arminian... would you disagree with that view? i believe scripture is most supportive of that view, as there are no suposed contradictions. if you feel its not bibicly supportive then please explain how... it makes the most sense to me, and from what i can see, i dont see any flaws in it. maybe if you see any, point them out.
God Bless you walter. my elder brother in christ :)
