This discussion will be a controversial one no doubt but one that I hope all will be open to searching out God's truth as opposed to having preconceptions about what we believe or have been taught.
In dealing with the Spiritual Gifts in the New Testament it is interesting to note that after the initial occurrance at Pentecost in the upper room when the Holy Spirit for the first time descended upon all the disciples that were there, there was only one exception when the Holy Spirit gave gifts prior to the laying on of hands by the Apostles. However an Apostle was present.
The incident was dealing with Peter who was not with the program so to speak so the Holy Spirit had to get him moving. haha. Other than that no one after ever received any of the spiritual gifts UNLESS the Apostles personally laid their hands on that person or the Apostles were at least present. It is also interesting to note that only the Apostles had the power to lay hands and impart spiritual gifts. Whoever received the spiritual gifts never had the power to impart those gifts to someone else. The person receiving gifts had the power of using the gifts but not to pass on the gifts themselves.
One of the most critical passages concerning this issue is below in Acts 8.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves. Phillip did NOT have the power to impart any gifts himself.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
What is often misunderstood by Charismatics and Pentecostals is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone or they had not received the Holy Spirit as yet, it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe?
That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts THROUGH the Apostles by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occurred.
Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures.
In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV
Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receiving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation.
What had to happen?
An Apostle of Jesus Christ had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".
Here is another passage dealing with the special powers given exclusively to the Apostles and those who had received the gifts AT THAT TIME.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
15 & 16 applies to us today as well as this is a commandment for us to spread the Gospel.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Verse 17 & 18 are not for the church today as no one has the legitimate gifts imparted by the Apostles of Christ because they are all dead and in Heaven now. No one today can cast out a demon nor drink poison and expect to live or handle a deadly snake and once bitten expect to live. No one also can lay hands on the sick and heal them today. God can do it and does perform miracles but no human has the" supernatural power" that the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ had. There are many fakers, many frauds and many well meaning deceived Christians who believe that they posses a "supernatural gift" from the Holy Spirit. The problem is that their beliefs are based upon some really bad teachings from gross misinterpretations of scriptures and "feelings". Men like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and their ilk have all been exposed for their fraudulent practices and giving False Prophesies...yet...people still follow them and will not accept the truth about them.
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
I want to point out a few things here. First when the scripture here referres to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them BY the Apostles of Christ. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
Thanks for letting me know that. I guess I misjudged the tone of the posts. I apologize to both of you for that. But I am glad that I know the truth about everyone's intentions with this subject. I am a member of a ministers only site, and this exact subject almost brought the whole place to blows. That is why I was a little gun shy on this one.
Ella,
Be careful what you wish for. I should have known you were going to make me put in the work. LOL. I think you do this on purpose just to keep me busy. LOL.
Okay, I will get busy. My next post is going to be pretty long, but remember... it is Ella's fault. LOL.
:ROFL:... Leon, you got that right! I will work you to death. See, from where I sit, I can see that you have laid passive long enough in the word of God. I have read your posts with Walter, and I think both of you have been tip toeing around with the gospel afraid to come forth with conviction of what you say you know, knowing what you say is truth. Backing out the door for fear to discuss the word in its fullness, this is only another tricl of the devil... to prevent you from knowing the truth and from seeking out the truth.
Yes, I will give you a fit when it come to the Word of God, and work your head off. You and Walter know about what you're trying to say, but you have been slack in your convictions to fully express what you say, because you're afriad... well, shy of getting involve in what I call a "HEATED FELLOWSHIP" (LOL) ... so let things blow up, what is the worse that can happen? Nothing ! Other than all parties will then take time to go out and research and read more of God's word in the matter for truth.
If you read the Word, Jesus and Paul and the others disciples stayed in heated fellowship with others when it came to the Word of God and correcting error or making their points... this is how we grow spiritually, because it puts you to work researching God's word, and it opens your understanding into scriptures to receive spiritual knowledge int the Word... mind you, not man's knowledge or wisdom, or understanding, but God's . Paul tells us not to argue with a divisive person who warped or perverted in their thinking, who is set in their own knowledge and false doctrine of the Word. But he never tells us not to correct or discuss what it is we believe or not to disagree about the faith of the gospel. He did it often, even so , with Peter and corrected him about certain things, and others throughout his writings.
So accept the challenge with grace:laugh::winksmile::peace::dancingp:!!!... BTW, if I was upset I would not be on the board today, cuz, when I get really upset, the Peter in me comes out... I go to cussing:yay:...:ROFL:
And no, I never said Walter was possessed with a demon, but yes, as you stated Christian can be OPPRESSED and hindered from obtaining what God has for them, if they become so wrapped up in man's views, commentaries, and man's thoughts about what God is saying or has said in His word.... Jesus rebuked the devil from Peter, because he saw that spirit was hindering Peter from seeing and understanding the truth. He didn't rebuke Peter, but that spirit.
So, when there is error or a set thought in what is not in the word, this is a trick of the devil, and is the cause of many being mislead into cults, and false doctrines and teachings. And many are scholars and teachers who are being deceived by their own knowledge and wisdom and understanding in the Word. Instead, of allowing the Holy Spirit to be active in interpreating what God is saying, seeing that only He knows the heart of God. Education is great, but I would rather be educated by the Holy Spirit into God's word than man... The Holy Spirit is the only one who has it correct.
Paul tells us this in his writings to the Corinthian church in I Corinthians chapters 1-4, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God... and the things of God are not of man's wisdom or knowledge, but that which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual with spiritual. Jesus even tells us that the othe comforter, which is the Holy Spirit will lead us and teach us into all things concerning the gospel of God. Jesus was the first comforter, and God sent the Sprit of Jesus Christ back for us, since He was no longer on earth, but now to live in us, and all who believe.
As Leon, stated, he was getting a little afraid things would blow up, but I say, so be it. As long as we come to a conclusion of the matter in agreement of what the Spirit of the Lord has to say about God's divine word...
I guess the best place to start this discussion is to define which spiritual gifts I will be addressing. 1 Cor. 12 gives us a list of the gifts that I will be speaking of.
12:8
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
12:9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
12:10
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
Then in chapter 13, we learn a little more about some of these gifts.
13:8
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
Now, there are two main lines of thought about what "That which is perfect" is referring to.
1)Jesus, because, they argue that He is the only perfect man.
2)The Bible gets completed, thus stopping the need for these things.
Let's look at the belief that it will be when Jesus returns. When He returns at the second coming, it will be to the final battle on earth. Since His people will be with Him, and this is a spiritual battle, why would He take away their only means of battling with Him? Doesn't make sense. Okay, let's look at option 2.
The Bible is written, and put together. The earliest collections of the scriptures we know as the Bible, seem to coincide with the end of these miracles, but that in itself doesn't really mean anything. What matters is, we suddenly have all the information available, so why do we need these gifts? We now have a written account of everything that happened. God no longer has to reveal it to one person so they can tell everyone, because His word has it all there. Now we have a practical reason.
Now, whether you agree or not, with that, let's talk about gifts and what they really were, and were not. Let's start with the book of James. Chapter1 verse 17 tells us that EVERY good gift, and every perfect gift is from the Father. Now let's move to Jesus.
Matthew
3:16
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
So, what is the Spirit of God? And what does it do? The Spirit of God is an anointing that God sends to His servants to accomplish a certain task. It will usually leave upon completion of that task, like it did with Sampson. In the case of Jesus, it stayed.
Jesus was not the first one that the Spirit did not depart, Elijah also kept the Spirit. When He was transfigured, this anointing passed to Elisha, who did not pass it on. Elisha understood that he had to be there with Elijah to have the anointing passed. Elijah was told by God to anoint Elisha in his place 1 Kings 19:16. We know that Elisha took this anointing to the grave because we read in 2 Kings;
13:21
So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.
We also know that Moses had this anointing, and that he had some problems because of it. God became so angry at him for taking the credit for bringing water from the stone, that he was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. Moses passed on the book of Law, but not his anointing.
I could go on for hours in the OT alone, but I will move back to Jesus.
We know that Jesus anointed His disciples to work certain miracles. In Matt. 10:1,
10:1
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.
Notice that prior to their receiving this power, they are still called disciples. But then in verse 2,
10:2
Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Notice that they are now referred to as Apostles, that is because they received the anointing from Christ.
We also know that this anointing was not as powerful as the anointing that was on Jesus. Here is how we know this;
Matt. 17:15-21
17:15
"Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic F81 and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.
17:16
So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him."
17:17
Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me."
17:18
And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.
17:19
Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?"
17:20
So Jesus said to them, "Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
17:21
However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."
So, Jesus cast it out with a word, but the Apostles would have had to pray and fast.
I guess at this point we should touch on what an anointing is, and how it is done. I will not get into it too much, but between men, it usually involved the laying on of hands. Even if it was just to rub oil on someone. To be anointed is to be covered. That is where the phrase descended UPON him, came from.
On Pentecost, the disciples (Not just the Apostles) were all gathered together in the upper room when the spirit came upon the earth. Whose Spirit, and why did they have to wait? They had to wait for Jesus to be seated at the right hand of the Father, so He could send His Spirit to earth. This is the spirit that comes to dwell in us, if we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.
Because of the occasion, and to show that this was of God, the Spirit preformed a miracle. We never hear of this happening to anyone but the Apostles again, with the exception of the 7 that were selected in Acts 6. If you look at 6:6, you will see that the Apostles laid hands on them.
One of these was Philip, and we know that he didn't have the power to impart the Holy Spirit to others because in Acts 8 we see that he was preforming miracles, but the Apostles had to come and lay hands on them for them to receive the Holy Spirit.
8:17
Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
8:18
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
The Bible states clearly here that they received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. But not just anyone's hands, only the Apostle's. Any time the Holy Spirit was received an Apostle was there, did they lay hands on them to impart this? That is the only thing that makes sense after such clear scriptural evidence.
Now, let's move to Romans 1:11-12.
1:11
For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established--
1:12
that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
To impart something means to give them something you have that they do not. Paul obviously thought they had faith.
1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
So, Paul was speaking of the celebration they would have after he passed on the anointing. This is the only thing that fits this passage.
So, in conclusion, The Apostles that Jesus anointed could pass that anointing to others, BUT, those that received the anointing from an Apostle could not pass that anointing on to others. This means that when you take Mark 16:15-18 in context, those who were saved could do these things, but they could not pass this on to others.
When you add this to Walter's original post, I don't see how anyone could believe any other way. This seems to be a clear pattern, that goes back to the Old Testament. Nothing new or even unusual. Just the way God works.
I wish we had different color fonts and stuff like other forums so I will simply place my name in caps and yours in caps so we know who is saying what.
[ELLA:]
So here we go: Part I
(1) You state that the Holy Spirit only descended upon the disciples in the upper room, and I find this in error. According to scripture, The Holy Spirit descended upon ALL who were gathered together in prayer on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room.
Acts chapter 1: verses 12 -26, tells that not only were the disciples in the upper room, but ALL the disciples continued in prayer with one accord and making supplication with the women(could have been their wives, but the word doesn't tell us who these women were) but we do know that Mary the mother of Jesus, and Jesus' brothers were also in the upper room praying and waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit along with the disciples.
Then in Acts chapter 2: verses 1-4, we are told that, everyone in the upper room were ALL in one accord in one (the same place). And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it (the wind) filled the whole house where they (so who are the they?... all those who were in theupper room), where they were sitting. And there appeared to them(again all who were in the house), cloven tongues as of fire, and it sat upon each of them (does not say just the disciples, but each of them, which means all who were in the house). And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them words to speak. Thus, this let's us know that the Hly Spirit was not just poured out upon the discipes but upon everyone who was in the house including the women and the brothers of Jesus.
[WALTER]
You have clearly not understood what I said. I said the disciples were the ones who were in the �upper room� and that is correct. The word �disciples� is not a term exclusive to the original 12 though it can be used as such. The term �disciple� simply means someone who is a follower of Christ. So yes it was the disciples that were in the upper room.
[ELLA]
You also state that the Holy Spirit was only pour out another time and something about Peter, which I don't understand what you are saying. Nevertheless, we find that in Acts chapters 10-11, that God also pourout His Spirit upon the Gentile Cornelious just as He did Peter and those in the upper room without the laying on of hands. Why did this happen? Becasue God had already promise that He would send His Spirit upon the Jews first and then the Gentiles. Cornelious was the first Gentile to receive the Holy Spirit as on the Day of Pentecost, this was to show God's power to the Gentiles and show the Jews that this promise was nto only for them, but also for the Gentiles.
The reason Peter was present in becasue God sent him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Cornelious) and Cornelious became the first of the Gentiles to receive the promise of the Father. This is why Peter when through what he did in Acts chapter 9, with the different kinds of meats , he called unclean, God was ppreparaing him for his mission of the gosple to the Gentiles. The Jews call edthe Gentiles dogs and felt they were unclean, so God showed Peter that God had the pwoer to clean who and whatsoever He chose to make clean, and for Peter to never call what God had cleaned unclean... Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdon to start the first chruch and to be the first of the disciples to preach the gosple to the Jews and the Gentiles, so this is why Peter was present when Cornelious received the Holy Spirit without laying on of hands. God had promised that the Gentiles would receive His Spirit just as the Jews had received His Spirit from God Himself.
[WALTER]
This is the incident I was referring to. Peter was reluctant to go and to preach to the Gentiles. He was somewhat of a segregationist and had an elitist mentality. God had to shatter this in Peter and to get him going with God�s program so to speak. Peter was lagging behind the Holy Spirit and so God had to move ahead of him to get him motivated. Peter recognized this after. �"Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:17).
Apart from the event on Pentecost, this is the only other time where the Holy Spirit ever imparted �supernatural gifts� to anyone throughout the rest of the New Testament. But still in these two isolated cases the Apostles OF Christ were present.
[ELLA]
Also, you stated that the apostle gave out gifts. That is in error, The apostles did not give out any gifts whatsoever. After God had poured out His Spirit on the Jews first, then the Gentiles Cornelious, The apostles were then empowered by God with the abilitiy to lay hands on people so that they to might receive the Spirit of the Lord. This was God shwing us that not only is He the power, but as Jesus so stated, God is the one who will give us power throught the Holt Spirit, as in Matthew chapter 28, verses 18-20, Mark chapter 16: verses 14-18; and Luke chapter 24: verses 44-53. So that the works of the Great Commission Jesus gave to all who believe might be fulfilled. The power the apostles had was only to lay hands on people and pray for them, the works of the gifts were given by the Holy Spirit, not the disciples who were first called apostles by Jesus during His ministry on here in the gospels. Whe their names were changed, Jesus also changed their titles from disciples to apostles whne He sent them out.
[WALTER]
Ella you have clearly missed what the scriptures have said concerning the method of how the supernatural gifts were given. You cannot take the only two exceptions in scripture and assume that is the rule, the way it would always be. You have to take all the evidence to weigh it out properly and pay close attention to what the scriptures are clearly saying. Below is one of the most important passages that explain HOW the Holy Spirit was normally working concerning the imparting of supernatural gifts.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had received but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves. Philip did not have the power to lay hands on people and pass on any spiritual gifts. This is significant.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Ella these people were saved but had not as yet received any �Supernatural Gifts�. If the Holy Spirit at this point did not need the Apostles as conduits to impart the gifts then why didn�t He distribute them like He did at Pentecost or even the house of Cornelius? There was a purpose here Ella and an important one. I will address that soon. Let me continue.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
Don�t miss these next two verses as they are extremely important! You cannot dance around these.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe? That the Apostles of Christ had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts through the Apostles by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. Throughout the rest of the New Testament no one received any �Supernatural Gifts� unless one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ personally laid their hands upon them. Ella your entire argument flies in the face of verses 18 & 19 above. Hermeneutics simply will not allow any other interpretation.
[ELLA]
Now the other things is your interpretation of what happened in Acts chapter 8. You start with verse 2, which misinterpreta the complete meaning of this chapter. In order for interpretation to be spiritually understood with insight and meaning to gain knowledge, the compete passage nust be given so others will know what is going on, and why things happened as they did. I have my Bible so I will start at the beginning of the passage to make things clearer. Also, remember, Philip was one of the disciples Jesus called in the gospels, so Philip was filled with the Holy Spirit unlike what you stated.
[WALTER]
Again you are twisting what I said Ella and you need to not do that. I never said Philip did not have any gifts of the Holy Spirit. He did. I said Philip was NOT able to impart the Gifts like the Apostles did. Having certain gifts and exercising those gifts is one thing� BUT� being able to �IMPART� those gifts to someone else is a completely different thing. You have to understand and discern the difference.
[ELLA]
Walter,
I understand what you're saying. However, I see the reason that there are no miracles and signs and wonder to the extent as were in the first century. As it being that NO ONE is preaching Christ as did the disciples in sincere belief today. No not one minister or preacher can you find who is preaching under the influence of the Holy Spirit of the Living God in His power. They may sound good and say good things but to minister and draw a person to Christ with conviction of the Holy Spirit, it ain't happening. God is not ging to gie out His gifts when there is unbelief. I you don't believe that the power of the Holy Spirit can work in you as He did in the disciples, do you really think God is going to give you His power? Some people today don't even believe when they are saved, not to speak about Holy Ghost pwoer to heal. what did Jesu say, believ and do not doubt...
We all as believers are filled with the Holy Spirit upon our belief, repentance and confession of Jesus Christ as our Savior. BUT, to be baptized with the fire of the Holy Spirit is indeed another process that no one is willing to submit to. This mean making a total commitment and sacrifice of all things in our lives we call important in our personal lives, totally sold out to Christ and the gospel, no matter who or what we must give up. So who deos this today as the disciples did back then. NO ONE!
[WALTER]
I could not disagree with you more on this Ella. The reason why no one is legitimately exercising the special �Supernatural Gifts� today is due to the fact that it was through the 12 Apostles OF Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit imparted those specific gifts. It has nothing to do with a lack of faith on our parts today. There was a purpose for these gifts and that purpose in one place is listed in Mark 16.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
The �supernatural Gifts� aka accompanying signs was to demonstrate that these Apostles �OF� Christ had the �Authority� from God, from Christ, to spread His Holy Word, The Gospel. It was to confirm their authority and to establish Christ�s Church.
I have to go for now but will return and address the rest.
The anointing of God's Spirit has always bee transferable one time. All the way through the Bible, these people could only pass it for one generation. There is no scriptural evidence otherwise. Just like anything else, this anointing was less powerful each time.
Walter, thank you for another awesome teaching, I do agree that the gifts as described in Acts were for a certain time and purpose in history. I have attended Calvary Chapel which believes as you have taught on this topic and also attended an AOG church which believes the opposite. I currently attend a Vineyard church which is somewhere in the middle, with some praying in tongues ( though not in the sanctuary) and some believing that they can heal in Jesus name. I have learned a lot in all of these churches and love all of my brothers and sisters in Christ, even when I do not agree with their doctrine.
Thanks, for the loving spirit in which you teach and may God richly bless you my brother. Blessings, Lydia
Leon,
Your case is well said and I do not see any scripture that suggests otherwise. Thanks to you both for taking the time to edify the brethren. Blessings, Lydia
Sorry, I haven't gotten back with you guys. My day yesterday and much of this weekend is going to be limited. But I will get back on the topic. I haven't read much of either your posts, but I have glanced over them.
I hope we don't lose focus here, my argument is in disagreement with Walter's statement that the Holy Spirit is no longer giving out supernatural gifts as He did in the 1st century, and that Philip was not anointed to lay hands on the people to receive the Holy Spirit. I say, God has never stopped doing what He has done or will do for those who have the faith and do believe that God can and will and has the power to do All thing. And that it was not God's intent for Philip to lay hands on the people, but to go minister the gospel to them, and God would send Peter and John to administer the Holy Spirit.
You can read this is what I wrote I think in my second post, I'm not sure but when I get another break, I will come back and find what I said about why Peter was sent... Since we know God to be a God of order, He had everything all planned out with prupose as to what each of 120 disciples who receive His gifts of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentacost were to do. Each one had a task in spreading the gospel including Paul, different from the each other in different regions, but all had the gifts of the Holy Spirit assigned for their works in the minsitry. Same Spirit, same gifts according to what they were sent to do. Paul makes that clear in I Corinthians chapter 12...
I understand scripture meaning, and all that is being said in scripture, as will as it applications, so I'm not seeking for scriptures to be explained to me. This is not what I seek, I'm seeking to know where in scripture do you guys find that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased to be. Seeing that God hasn't ceased to be, nor has His Holy Spirit ceased to be. So the burden of proof is on you to prove in scritpure that the Holy Spirit is no longer giving out gifts, and the gifts are no longer in operation in the church for today.
As I've stated, God is the same today, yesterday, and forevermore, and it would seem His gifts are as well, for the works of the ministry to those who believe and have faith. We have changed, and are not as devoted or faithful, or committed to have the consistant strong faith of the disciples were. But we in the church today, are of a carnal minded, of unbelief, and seeking our own wisdom and knowledge in understanding the spiritual things of God. But God's grace and favor haven't changed. The gifts and the calling are irrevocable. And as Paul writes in I Corinthians chapter 12: verse 7.. But the manifastation of the Spirit IS ( not was) but IS given to EACH person to profit everyone. Meaning for the edification of the church, for the spreading of the gospel, and those who have need to be ministered to in the word.... I'll get aback to this later, when I have more time to spend without having to start and stop.
Maaaan, Leon, this is more than I have see you speak since I've been on this board. Leon, you fulfilled your promise didn't you LOL. WOW you wrote a lot, I can't believe it! :applause: Walter always has much to say and both of you make good points in your teachings, but Leon...WOW! I'm speechless as to how much you wrote, but you did warn me:laugh:
The long speeches and writings are actually normal for me, too. But I know few will read more than the first few lines, so I try to keep it as short as I can.
But you wanted scriptural proof, so that is what you got. I had to go all the way back into the OT, so that I could show the pattern that emerges, if we only apply the whole Bible, and not just a few verses that say what we want them to say. In this way, I demonstrated, with scripture, that this is the way it has always been. If someone tells you God is doing a new thing, step away before the lightening hits. God never changes, we do.
You said: "I understand scripture meaning, and all that is being said in scripture, as will as it applications, so I'm not seeking for scriptures to be explained to me.
WALTER:
Ella are you saying that you know all things and that no one can point something out to you that you may not be understanding, that you may not be properly interpreting? That is how you are coming across here and I don't want to misread you.
ELLA:
This is not what I seek, I'm seeking to know where in scripture do you guys find that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased to be. Seeing that God hasn't ceased to be, nor has His Holy Spirit ceased to be. So the burden of proof is on you to prove in scritpure that the Holy Spirit is no longer giving out gifts, and the gifts are no longer in operation in the church for today.
WALTER:
I have laid out very clearly what the scriptures say concerning this matter. You have not been able to refute anything I have said. You have given your "opinion" but have not "demonstrated" my exegesis to be in any error. I have consistently maintained the literal, grammatical Hermeneutic.
I have proven that the normal method of the distribution of certain supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit was done exclusively through the laying on of the hands of the Apostles of Jesus Christ. With the two obvious exceptions, the initial incident at Pentecost and then the one other time at Cornelius house, the Holy Spirit never ever imparted any "Supernatural gifts" to anyone....ever, unless it was through the laying on of the hands of one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ. This is the special power that Simon observed and tried to purchase. He did not try to purchase the ability to receive the "gifts" but tried to purchase the power to distribute the Gifts that only the Apostles of Jesus possessed. NO ONE had that power but the Apostles.
Let me post an excerpt from an article by my Pastor who is well studied in Greek. I hope this helps!
From: http://www.pfrs.org/gifts/gifts03.html
I. Explicit Statement of Apostolic Distribution
The statement about Simon's observation in verse 18 provides a direct statement of the mode of distribution. The Greek literally reads, "When observed (or perceived) Simon, that through (the agency of) laying on (of) the Apostles' hands the Spirit IS BEING GIVEN..." The verb translated "saw" (observed or perceived) is in the aorist tense. The aorist tense indicates the totality of a "happening" or occurrence of something without regard for continuation. It describes the whole event, usually something that is quickly over. It is almost always rendered in the past tense in English. Simon SAW or OBSERVED something � a single happening. "When Simon saw..." Simon's observation was quickly over. Simon made an observation and drew a conclusion from it. But, the verb translated "was given" in the KJV is misleading in English. In the Greek text it is in the present tense and indicative mood. The "present indicative" always refers to something CURRENTLY happening CONTINUOUSLY. In this case, "the Spirit IS BEING GIVEN" through the Apostles' hands. Remember, Luke was writing a narrative, recounting for his readers what had happened in the past. His use of verb tenses is consistent with his telling the story of what occurred. But, Luke's language also indicates that it was the norm for the Spirit's power to be given in this manner. It does not merely indicate that Simon observed a single occurrence of the Spirit's manifestations being given in this manner. There is a very significant shift from the aorist tense to the present indicative. (Simon) SAW (aorist - meaning something that occurred - an event quickly over) that by the laying on of the Apostles' hands the Spirit IS BEING GIVEN (present indicative). The continuous present action of the present indicative Greek verb leaves no doubt that Luke meant the distribution of the gifts through the Apostles' hands was a continuous action when he was writing Acts! IF Luke meant Simon SAW that through the Apostles' hands the Holy Spirit WAS (or had been) given in that particular instance (both verbs referring to a single event that Simon had just observed) he would have used the aorist tense again (was given) rather than switching to the present indicative. Luke's use of the present indicative in his narration indicates the Spirit's manifestations were continuously being given through the Apostles' hands when Luke penned Acts AFTER the fact. That is the ONLY reasonable explanation for Luke's shift from the aorist to the present indicative in his statement. The switch from the aorist tense (Simon SAW) to the present indicative (is being given) indicates that Simon's OBSERVATION was momentary (aorist), but the giving of the gifts through the laying on of the Apostles' hands was continuously ONGOING when Luke wrote Acts. It was THE MANNER in which the Spirit's power was being distributed at the time. Young's literal translation renders this verse correctly as follows:
Acts 8:18
18 And Simon, having beheld that through the laying on of the hands of the apostles the Holy Spirit is given, brought before them money,
(YLT)
In other words, Simon discovered or observed something that was a continuous (present) reality, not a momentary occurrence.
Implicit Evidence of Apostolic Distribution:
Notice also that Simon wanted to buy the "POWER" to do this. "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." Peter referred to this ability to impart the Spirit (manifestations) as "the gift of God." "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!" Note carefully that the POWER to impart the gifts to others is what Peter called "the gift of God." The words "gift of God" in verse 20 DO NOT refer to the Holy Spirit Himself. Simon was not asking to receive the Spirit, any of the gifts he had seen Philip exercise, or even the gifts received by the other Samaritans on whom Peter and John laid hands. Simon wanted something more, the unique POWER that the Apostles themselves possessed to impart the Spirit's power to others. This unique power, which was held exclusively by the Apostles of Christ, was the "gift of God" that he could not buy from the Apostles.
The POWER to impart the Holy Spirit's manifestations on believers was one of the unique GIFTS only the Apostles themselves possessed. (The other unique gift being the ability to punish people with supernatural power - cf. Acts 5:1-13 & Acts 13:8-12). The unique Apostolic gifts are not included in other lists of spiritual gifts in the New Testament. Being Apostolic gifts, they were not given to anyone else. That the power to impart the Holy Spirit's gifts to other believers was itself called "the gift of God" by Peter implies Apostolic use on a continual basis. If ordinary spiritual "gifts" were meant to be the permanent possession of the recipient, the same would apply to this special Apostolic gift, it being a permanent possession of the Apostles to be exercised continually. A "gift" was meant to be used on an ongoing basis. This also implies that the mode of distribution was through the Apostles' hands. ""
