1 Corinthians chapter 13 says Love is not selfish, it does not seek its own way.
Therefore I ask you is it the way of Love, is it the way of God to force its way on someone? The question is Not if God has the right,...He does. The question is ; Is it God's nature?
Gods nature is LOVE... God is LOVE. God has an AGAPE for ALL of mankind. Agape mean UNCONDITIONAL. If God didnt love ALL mankind as John 3:16 says He does, then He wouldnt have an Agape love. But God LOVED us ALL soooo much that He sent His only Begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH (thats what John 3:16 says to do...BELIEVE) in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.Very easy, very simple verse to understand, so easy a little child could understand, why cant an adult. But of course some people would have it say "For God so loved ONLY those that He has chosen, that He sent His only Begotten son that ONLY those that are the elect will have everlasting life." Hmm, looks like I left out a word...Believe. Seems to me that according to Calvin, you dont have to believe, you could be an athiest and still go to Heaven. I mean, if Calvin was right, then why should you believe, if you are already chosen by God.
No Ryan no man can tell a Calvinist what the word says, for they in hearing they choose not to hear, and in seeing they choose not to see, so why do I think I am greater than God.
I have always said a fifth grader with average English skills could read and understand scripture it is not hard, but Calvinist do not believe scripture they believe what church history says scripture says.
Now Ryan there is no attack on you for scripture would not allow that, but no one in Christ wants anyone to miss Jesus for a man.
Saved - And it's my belief that God did not hate Esau as the Calvanist would have you believe in order to push their doctrine, but that God preferred Jacob over Esau.
Ryan - The power in the verse is not that God hated anyone. The power is in His sovereign choice, which is a recurring theme throughout all of scripture. Calvinists don't push the hated, as we believe God has a general love for the world, but a much greater love for His people whom He has chosen.
It's not just 9:13. As we see, the whole theme here is God's sovereign choice over people. This is unmistakable. Now the verse doesn't Say 'Jacob I loved, and Esau I loved less". There are many places we find God's hatred in scripture. It is just as much who He is as His love is. Let's let the text speak for itself. We need to get away from the concept of "God must be fair". Why do we think that?
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is NOT THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH who are the children of God, but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son." 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad�in order that God�s PURPOSE OF ELECTION might continue, not because of works but because of HIM WHO CALLS� 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God�s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it DEPENDS NOT ON HUMAN WILL or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then HE HAS MERCY ON WHOMEVER HE WILL, AND HARDENS WHOMEVER HE WILLS.(I don't see people screaming up to defend the WHOMEVER here like the do in John 3:16)
19You will say to me then, "WHY DOES HE STILL FIND FAULT? For who can resist his will?" 20But WHO ARE YOU, O man, TO ANSWER BACK to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 HAS THE POTTER NO RIGHT OVER THE CLAY, TO MAKE OUT OF THE SAME LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR HONORABLE USE AND ANOTHER FOR DISHONORABLE USE? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory� 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Saved - But nowhere do I find God displaying any hatred toward Esau [the individual]. God does not hate anyone. It's a shame there is even such a debate as this.
Ryan -
5The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers. Psalm 5:5
5The LORD tests the righteous,
but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. Psalm 11:5
Two - I defend the scriptures which you all say to scrap because you just believe the Doctrines of Grace and interpret all Scripture in light of them. "We have no will, everthing is already decided, it is not about God's Love for mankind, but about God bringing more Glory to himself." That is making a God of your own choosing. That is not the God of scripture. You have fashioned him into the fair god you always wanted.
Ryan - I never said man has no will. Of course, evident throughout scripture is God doing things for His own glory.
5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORIOUS GRACE, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:5-6
Why? To the praise of His glory. A consistent theme. Again..
12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY Ephesians 1:12
14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY. Ephesians 1:14
9"FOR MY NAME'S SAKE I defer my anger,
FOR THE SAKE OF MY PRAISE I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.
10Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
11 FOR MY OWN NAME, FOR MY OWN SAKE, I DO IT,
for how should my name be profaned?
MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER. Isaiah 48:9-11
6I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
7EVERYONE WHO IS CALLED BY MY NAME,
WHOM I CREATED FOR MY GLORY,
whom I formed and made." Isaiah 43:6-7
8Yet he saved them FOR HIS NAME'S SAKE,
that he might make known his mighty power. Psalm 106:8
"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Romans 9:17
4And I will harden Pharaoh�s heart, and he will pursue them, and I WILL GET GLORY over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD." And they did so. Exodus 14:4
4But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out. Ezekiel 20:14
Do good works why? So God gets the glory...
16In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:16
We need to get away from this man centered theology and understand who God really is.
Whatever you ask He will do because He loves you? Not what this says...
Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, THAT THE FATHER MAY BE GLORIFIED in the Son. (John 14:13)
Yes Jesus' sacrifice was out of love for the chosen, but it was for God to be glorified...
27 "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? BUT FOR THIS PURPOSE IF HAVE COME TO THIS HOUR. 28FATHER, GLORIFY YOUR NAME." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again." John 12:27-28
25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. THIS WAS TO SHOW GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26IT WAS TO SHOW HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:25-26
25"I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake" Isaiah 43:35
Welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God. Romans 15:7
31So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD. 1 Corinthians 10:31
11whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies�IN ORDER THAT IN EVERYTHING GOD MAY BE GLORIFIED through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 1 Peter 4:11
23Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory Acts 12:23
Look at this great truth here though, God even uses His wrath in order to make His glory known.
22What if God, DESIRING TO SHOW HIS WRATH and TO MAKE KNOWN HIS POWER, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23IN ORDER TO MAKE KNOWN the riches of HIS GLORY for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory� 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:22-24
You were saying Two?
God is God Centered. Why are we so man centered? As if somehow we deserved anything...
PJ - No Ryan no man can tell a Calvinist what the word says, for they in hearing they choose not to hear, and in seeing they choose not to see, so why do I think I am greater than God.
Ryan - You made a claim that John 3:16 tells man what to do. I simply asked what exactly John 3:16 tells man to do.
PJ - I have always said a fifth grader with average English skills could read and understand scripture it is not hard, but Calvinist do not believe scripture they believe what church history says scripture says.
Ryan - Well I do believe church history is in contradiction with you however I also believe the bible is. Of course that is getting away from the issues which is what does John 3:16 tell man to do.
adrbabes - Gods nature is LOVE... God is LOVE. God has an AGAPE for ALL of mankind. Agape mean UNCONDITIONAL. If God didnt love ALL mankind as John 3:16 says He does, then He wouldnt have an Agape love. But God LOVED us ALL soooo much that He sent His only Begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH (thats what John 3:16 says to do...BELIEVE) in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.Very easy, very simple verse to understand, so easy a little child could understand, why cant an adult. But of course some people would have it say "For God so loved ONLY those that He has chosen, that He sent His only Begotten son that ONLY those that are the elect will have everlasting life." Hmm, looks like I left out a word...Believe. Seems to me that according to Calvin, you dont have to believe, you could be an athiest and still go to Heaven. I mean, if Calvin was right, then why should you believe, if you are already chosen by God.
Ryan - I submit that John 3:16 is not a teaching on what man must do but a teaching on what Christ has done.
The word love in scripture is not always used of AGAPE love. The love in John 3:16 speaks of a definite act in time, in this case the act carried out in the death on the cross. John 3:16 does not say "God loved us all sooooooo much". In fact nowhere at all does it say He loved us all. You would have a hard time finding in scripture where the word "world" ever means all people everywhere, head for head. The were so is often misinterpreted by saying He loved us "soooooooooooo" much. However the word so there does not speak of a quantity like most try to say however a quality. In other words it would be completely accepted to interpret is as "God loved the world, like so", or "This is how God loved the world".
We forget verses 14 and 15 that make it more clear
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, SO must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. John 3:14-15
On to the "WHOOOOOSOOEVER BELIEVES, that's what John 3:16 tells man to do"
While it is a scriptural truth that you believe and are saved, the primary message of the scripture is not about what man is to do, but about what Christ has done for those the would believe. GAVE HIS LIFE. John 3:16 is no more important in a verse for the lost than "repent and believe in the gospel" Mark 1:15, but we sure teach it like it's the greatest verse ever. Furthermore the word whosoever is not found in the original language. Sure it's in the english translations and sure it's accurate, but it's not accurate if people read into the test what is not there. It's accurate as well to say "everyone who believes". SO Christ gave His son for everyone who believes. Nowhere does John 3:16 say this gift is for everyone everywhere.
"Seems to me that according to Calvin, you dont have to believe, you could be an athiest and still go to Heaven."
A gross misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace.
"I mean, if Calvin was right, then why should you believe, if you are already chosen by God."
You are saved by grace though faith. You must be speaking of a different Calvin.
