I asked a question on another thread and was told is was silly and irrelevant. The question was : Is it likely that a man on a deserted island with only a Bible would come up with Calvinism, Tulip, The Doctrines of Grace, Reformation Theology (all the same thing).
I think it is a totally relevant question and not silly at all. Here is why: If a person cannot read the Bible alone and come to Calvinism on their own then 'logically' Calvinism must come from a source outside the Bible.
James, I went to Calvary Chapels for years and never heard of "four points of Calvinism". Actually, it is only here and those things that you believe and articles you post, that I've even learned what a "Calvinist" really is and what they believe. Regardless though of what an Arminian believes, and whether it lines up with beliefs of mine, this doesn't make me one, and neither do you need to refer me as one.
James wrote - "If you believe that the Fall messed mankind up, but that people still have free will, and have the ability to choose Jesus."
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! -Matthew 23:37
"Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not."
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it]. - Isaiah 1:18-20
James wrote - "If you believe that God only 'chooses' someone base upon if they decide to have faith or not."
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. - Hebrews 11:5
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. - Luke 18:42
James wrote - "If you believe that Jesus died for everyone, but that God's grace CAN be resisted....."
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. - Acts 7:51
Yeah, God's grace can be resisted. Yeah, we can choose. And yeah, we can be saved by faith/belief in the Lord which leads to being born-again.
Thank you James, your post to Saved 71, is absolutely correct! It shows exactly how different from the Bible, mans doctrine has become. 5 point Calvinists, 4 point Arminians, but if the last point is still undecided that would make them 3 1/2 pointers, and you forgot 4 point Calvinists, the ones who do not accept Limited Atonement.
Where do I find all this in the Bible, the book of Ben Hur?
This post does not attack Calvinism, it is only meant to show that Calvinism is NOT on equal footing with the Bible. It seems a difficult truth for you and LSU to accept that Calvinism is NOT the Gospel as Spurgeon says. The Gospel is the Gospel.
*** No !...I am a " Christian "...F.Y.I....that is a person that is Born Again of GOD Following Jesus* Teachings & Doctrine ONLY !!!...GOD/Jesus makes no mention of Calvin or Armin in the Holy Bible...:rolleyes:...
Shared ~ you just fight for everything that IS Arminian??
*** Actualy Ima Lover of GOD/Jesus and a Hater of Sin...
Shared ~ And both sides are wrong ????
*** Absolutely...
Shared ~ Enlighten me Jude...
*** I�ve already said both are mans Commontary�How they Perceive it�That is not Christ Jesus Doctrine�xo
Amen! There are no "4" or "5" points recorded in Scripture. There is no phrase "Unconditional Election" or "Limited Atonement". Nor do we find the term "Irresistible Grace". And we read, "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life." We also read "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Seriously, how difficult is that to understand? Why would one cheapen it by saying it is "Limited Atonement"?
I would really like James to address the verses I've given him earlier in this thread instead of his continual pounding of Calvin this and Calvin that and accusations of Arminian this and Arminian that. But, as in several other times where I've asked him to address those verses.... I won't hold my breath. :goofball:
Saved, just to clarify, Many "Calvinists" don't like the term limited atonement. One of the alternatives is particular redemption. It doesn't change what it is, but just wanted to clarify.
LSU, I don't find the phrase "particular redemption" in Scripture either. Actually, I haven't even heard that term before. Regardless, Christ' death on the Cross was not for some, but for all who will believe.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. -1 Timothy 4:10
I wasn't trying to start an argument or say that the phrase was found in scripture. You said why call it limited atonement. I was just saying many prefer other terms for it.
Just a thought, trinity isn't found in scripture so that shouldn't be the determining factor.
James, I went to Calvary Chapels for years and never heard of "four points of Calvinism". Actually, it is only here and those things that you believe and articles you post, that I've even learned what a "Calvinist" really is and what they believe.
James replies:
Oh I certainly believe that! You spent all your years skimming the happy sentimental verses you liked and ignored everything else. Maybe your preacher was the same way. I am glad that you have found a place that challenges you to learn more about the Bible.
James wrote - "If you believe that the Fall messed mankind up, but that people still have free will, and have the ability to choose Jesus."
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! -Matthew 23:37
"Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not."
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it]. - Isaiah 1:18-20
James replies:
That's it? That is all you have? I can post all the verses Arm- whoops I mean Christians like you use to say that fallen man has free will. See, here is the problem you post three verses and I have 45. I can explain yours, but you never deal with the ones I give. You never get around to telling me what I should with the 45 verses that CLEARLY say that Fallen man has a will enslaved to sin, and that fallen man is unable to understand the things of God, etc.
In John 6 Jesus says TWICE, "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME UNLESS..."
And then you say, "No, ANYONE CAN COME..."
The first verse you give is Jesus talking about the Jews in Jerusalem, but that does NOT show that fallen man has free will or the ability. All it shows is how WICKED fallen man is!
James wrote - "If you believe that God only 'chooses' someone base upon if they decide to have faith or not."
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. - Hebrews 11:5
James replies:
and what pray tell, 71, am I supposed to do with ALL the verse that say that GOD chose whom He would save, and that it is up to Him??? You are saying first that this verse is TEACHING that we are saved by our faith??? Again, you give me a verse, and your interpretation of that verse makes the other 20 verses I have contradict each other. I don't believe the Bible contradicts itself.
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. - Luke 18:42
James replies:
Ephesians 2:8,9 says that faith itself is a gift FROM God.
James wrote - "If you believe that Jesus died for everyone, but that God's grace CAN be resisted....."
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. - Acts 7:51
James replies:
If they ALWAYS resist then that gives evidence to total depravity and a will enslaved to sin.
Jesus said that ALL the ones the Father gave to Him WILL come to Him.
71 said:
Yeah, God's grace can be resisted. Yeah, we can choose. And yeah, we can be saved by faith/belief in the Lord which leads to being born-again.
James replies:
It sounds like you are your own savior. Everything is "we".
When I read Scripture, I see that ALL, and I mean every bit of salvation comes from God.
