Did you hear what the man, said about the man that trys to communicate spiritual things being logical, or employing logic in understanding spiritual matters.
Logic is like a log in the eye you see, or do you really see with the log in the eyes.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
twosparrows - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, and He will direct your paths" (Proverbs 3:5)
If you don't like that verse, you can be honest and say you don't accept the Bible, or you can be dishonest using your logic and rationalize that verse away.
Ryan - I like the verse and I agree with logic as well. You are confusing man's flawed logic with logic itself. God is logical. Scripture is logical. If it wasn't, then you shouldn't believe it because it would make God inconsistent when He gives commands. His commands couldn't actually mean what they say. You are even using logic(flawed as it may be) to prove your point. You are giving a verse and saying because of this verse, you cannot believe in logic. You are attempting to use logic.
GodsJude - *** There is no Word � Logic� in the Written or Spoken Word of GOD�but in Fact it does Exist�
Ryan - I'm sorry! Sometimes I forget who I'm responding to. Sorry ma'am! Yes I was aware that the word logic wasn't used and I wasn't specifically asking where the scriptures used the actual word, just for clarification.
*** Oky Doky�
GodsJude - *** You are right�The Proof is in the Pudding�So to speak�When I cannot see the Moon�I still Know that it Exists� *** I disagree with the Peoples Logic�it is Contrary to GOD�s Sovereignty�
Ryan - Now we are getting somewhere. I completely agree that man is not perfect and that their logic can be flawed. I'm however not speaking about man's logic, but rather logic in and of itself.
*** Then you are Seeking Theological Answers ???�you stated . I'm however not speaking about man's logic, but rather logic in and of itself. *** The previous Thread was about Monergisim and not Senergisim just for the record here�seems you are Seeking answers other than Biblical�more along the lines of Theological or Possible Universal ???
Ryan - We know the moon exists, so it's can't not exist. That is logic.
*** I agree�but it is more Common sense�
Ryan ~ A flawed man can disagree with it, but he would have flawed logic.
*** I agree
Ryan - Logic itself though is not flawed.
*** GOD�s Logic is never Flawed�mans / womens�Yup !
Ryan - Scripture is logical.
*** To a Born Again Holy Spirit Filled Believer�YES !!!�it is very Logical�
Ryan - Man controlling the universe is contrary to God's sovereignty.
*** Man / Women trying to Control the Universe or Anything�that�s a Hoot�we can read through out the Bible what happens�lol�
Ryan - Logic is not.
*** Depends on whose Logic�GOD�s or mans�it Truly seems you are Seeking a Logical Answer or Solution for a Infinate GOD by Finite�Logic�
Godsjude - *** And that�s Miss not Sir�lol�but thank you for being polite, I appreciate it�Speaking of Sun & Moon�can you Logically Explain this Happening and Reconcile it to your Logical Carnal mind ???�Homework is always Good for the Soul�
Ryan - I would argue that the carnal mind would be prone to think illogically, not logically. It's your position that the carnal mind is logical?
*** Yes ! I agree the carnal mind is prone to think illogically, not logically�No ! It is not my Position that the carnal mind is logical�it is faulty until it is Re-Newed by being Born Again�but of course ifin ya listen & buy into the Lies of Satan & his gang�well�he can convince a person of Anything�
GodsJude - 12~ Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, [[[ Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. ]]] 13~[[[ And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, ]]] until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.14~ And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.
Ryan - You would need to show how these verses are illogical. I can agree maybe that they may be beyond certain people's understanding, but remember logic is determined by reality not what someone understands. I don't understand all the intricacies of a tornado, but I know they occur. You may be confusing man's reasoning with logic.
*** These verses are not illogical at all�.I guess you are not willing to reconcile these verses Logically or Carnally�that�s ok�
GodsJude - The WORD Logic is not in the Bible�the Word Carnal is found in 10 Verses in the Bible which as a courtesy I will post below�and Mind occurs 95 times in 92 verses in the KJV and not 1 Word about Logic�
Ryan - I would argue that logic is presented in scripture without having to use the word logic. Jesus says to act a certain way. That logically means we are to not act the opposite way. That's logic, but the word logic isn't used in the verse.
*** OK�argue it�better yet�Debate it�there has been enough Arguing on the Forums of late�Might I suggest you Present some Scriptures for Discussion on a New Thread that Clearly Point to Logic�I would enjoy that�
GodsJude -*** Then you are Seeking Theological Answers ???�you stated . I'm however not speaking about man's logic, but rather logic in and of itself. *** The previous Thread was about Monergisim and not Senergisim just for the record here�seems you are Seeking answers other than Biblical�more along the lines of Theological or Possible Universal ???
Ryan - Well actually this was brought about by PJ saying that scripture is illogical and I assumed that in your defense of him, you agreed.
GodsJude - *** I agree�but it is more Common sense�
Ryan - I agree that it's common sense, but no more common sense than it is logical.
GodsJude - *** GOD�s Logic is never Flawed�mans / womens�Yup !
*** To a Born Again Holy Spirit Filled Believer�YES !!!�it is very Logical�
Ryan - I guess we agree more than I thought. Again this came about because PJ says scripture isn't logical. You've seemed to agree with him. Maybe I was mistaken.
GodsJude - *** Depends on whose Logic�GOD�s or mans�it Truly seems you are Seeking a Logical Answer or Solution for a Infinate GOD by Finite�Logic�
Ryan - Again we sorta agree. Logic is Logic, God's logic is no different than mans. Man can just fail a logic when God cannot.
GodsJude - *** These verses are not illogical at all�
Ryan - Which was my point to begin with. I have consistently taken the side that scripture is always logical. If you agree, then you must refute PJ, not me.
GodsJude - *** OK�argue it�better yet�Debate it�there has been enough Arguing on the Forums of late�Might I suggest you Present some Scriptures for Discussion on a New Thread that Clearly Point to Logic�I would enjoy that�
Ryan - Ok I think you know that my heart was in the right place and the whole point about not arguing is not needed. Maybe it was a bad choice of a word...
I gave scriptures in a quote with a link. Everyone chose not to read them, simply because you can't post a like I guess. However my example points to scripture without giving specific verses. If Jesus gives a command to do something, It must also be a command not to do the opposite of that. You asking me to prove that with scripture is like saying Jesus never gave a command. If we already know he gave commands then the point will suffice without posting a specific verse.
You come right out and make a bold statement as if a teacher of truth; you say proverbs 3:5 only applys to mans flawed logic. Do you always insert words into the Bible to make it say what you want it to say? So what does your Bible say?....'lean not on your own flawed understanding' ...."your flawed ways are not my ways" ...... 'my thoughts are higher than your flawed thoughts' or does the Bible mean what it says....." lean not on your own understanding."
With hermeneutics like yours, you could make the Bible say anything, why you could even make it support Calvinism!
Just because JW's pervert a verse doesn't mean there isn't a correct interpretation. It is not my fault the correct interpretation flies in the face of your systematic theology.
twosparrows -You come right out and make a bold statement as if a teacher of truth; you say proverbs 3:5 only applys to mans flawed logic. Do you always insert words into the Bible to make it say what you want it to say? So what does your Bible say?....'lean not on your own flawed understanding' ...."your flawed ways are not my ways" ...... 'my thoughts are higher than your flawed thoughts' or does the Bible mean what it says....." lean not on your own understanding."
Oh I see, so you must think the verse is speaking of our perfect understanding since you say it doesn't mean flawed. Anyway are you not making statements as if you are a teacher of truth? If you say you are right and I'm wrong, you are claiming truth. The opposite flawed is not flawed. I'd love to see you make the argument that men are not flawed.
Also since we are making leaps. You think it's a huge leap that I think the verse refers to men's flawed understanding. I would say it's a much greater leap say the verse refers to logic. I would love an explanation of how it refers to logic.
AND....the context of that verse is a book which is a collection of sayings on HOW TO BE WISE. That entire section you quoted from is God TELLING man to use logic and SEEK WISDOM.
So, that verse does NOT mean, "forget about trying to think clearly, and just use your spiritual intuition..."
I agree with what P.J. shared here. He didn't confuse anyone. If confusion entered this thread it was when james and Lsu started trying to intellectualize a Spiritual Truth. It can't be done.
