I have tried very hard, searching the scriptures to prove your doctrines as truth. However, such scripture has eluded me.
This is a very simple request.
Can you provide me with 4 scriptures and 4 scriptures only?
One each for the first 4 points of reformed doctrine.
1) Total Depravity ~ Need a scripture that says plainly man lost the ability to choose as a result of the fall. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
2) Unconditional Election ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says God chooses from all men unconditionally a few to save. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
3) Limited Atonement ~ Need a scripture that plainly says Christ's Atonement on the cross only covers a few, not the whole world. ( Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
4) Irresistible Grace ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says no man can resist the Grace of God. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
*If you all cannot provide one plain straight forward scripture for each point, then it is quite plain you have gone beyond Scripture ....wouldn't you agree?
Matthew 22:14, �For many are called, but few are chosen� I believe is referring to the �general call� of the gospel or the �external call.� This call extends to all who hear the Good News. Many hear it, but of those, who will respond? Those who truly respond in faith are the �chosen� or �elect.� The call that results in people responding to the Gospel refers to God�s irresistible calling to the elect alone (Romans 8:30). This is the effectual call.
Margo, This is what I don't understand concerning the Calvinistic view of Matthew 22:14. I'll ask you the same question I asked James...
So you have God, who created the majority of man for destruction and destined to hell, with no hope ever of obtaining salvation, "call" those very same people "to repent and trust in Jesus"?
Why Calvinism uses this verse for election is baffling to me. If one reads a few verses ahead they will see that ALL were "unconditionally" invited. However there was a guest who is thrown out on the "condition" of his attire. Doesn't anyone see this? His election is conditional. Why?.... because he did not avail himself of the 'garment of righteousness' supplied by Jesus.
*puzzled in a state between Calvinism and Arminianism*
Paul wrote a passage of Romans that addresses questions just like those you bring up. He anticipated them when he wrote the book.
Romans 9:13 - 24:
13Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and Compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "for this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
I don�t claim to have all the answers, but I can say that in light of these scriptures, it is telling us as just mere created beings to hush our months and let God be God. There are wondrous paradoxes concerning our God�How is it that God commanded one nation to judge his people, and then turn around and judge them for doing just that? How is that in one place it says that Pharoh�s heart was hardened, (Exodus 4:21) and in another it says he hardened his own heart? (Exodus 8:15) When Moses asked God to tell him His name, what did God say? �I AM that I AM�. He also says in the same will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will have compassion�, which in His answering in this manner shows the essence of who He is. (Exodus 33: 19)
It all comes down to God�s glory and purpose.
"For this very purpose I raised the up��that my name may be proclaimed� �HIS glory, HIS honor, HIS evangelism.
Our questions and finiteness are all the more reason to acknowledge His Soveriengty!
Two, I don't understand why they use that particular verse either. Heck, I'm trying to understand HOW they use that verse.
I've got a verse that shows Christ died for the sinner who rejects/denies Him.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. - 2 Peter 2:1
This is obviously not an 'elect' individual or group of people. But it is this people that Christ died for. Notice they deny the Lord that BOUGHT them?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. - 1 Corinthians 6:20
We were all bought with a price. Every last sinner. That price being Christ' sacrifice.
Romans 9 is about Israel and the problem[s] associated with her condition [she missed her Messiah] and her position in God [because of her rejection] along with the assurance of our position in God [since her rejection].
Please know that I'm not trying to debate you or critize you. You seem to be a very intelligent, gracious and honorable woman. :)
Also, please forgive my ignorance. I admit that I'm a baby.
I see in the verse's that you posted that God is sovereign. I'll never argue that, but I don't see where it demonstrates that some are given salvation and some aren't.
You are correct in context Romans 9 is addressing the apparent fairness or unfairness of the Jews missing out on salvation and it being given to the Gentiles. As a matter of fact that is what the parable in Matthew 22 is also about.
I am guessing reformation doctrine assumes the same principles apply to the individual.
