In previous threads over the past couple days, there has been a huge problem become evident which has yet to been dealt with in the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate. The problem is this: Both sides have presented Scriptures supporting their arguments. It's like you've got one side saying, "These are the Calvinistic verses!" and the other, "These are the Arminian verses!" because Scripture is both of our authorities. However, Scripture cannot contradict itself, thus one of these views has wrongly interpreted some Scripture passages. Scriptures must be in agreement, thus if an interpretation can be shown to go against a *clear* teaching of Scripture, then the interpretation *must* be wrong. That said, I want to look at one particular point and that is total depravity and its implications.
This thread is meant to answer the question "Are we dead in sin?" And if the answer is yes, "Does this mean we are totally depraved or have total spiritual inability?" These questions, and these ONLY are to be discussed. Please limit your arguments to these parameters.
Ephesians 2 talks about being "dead in trespasses and sins" (v1) and how we were "dead in sins" (v5). As many of you well know, this is a proof text for Calvinism, if it can be shown that "dead in sins" does not equal "total depravity/total inability" then the Calvinism would be, at best, very badly injured.
So...Are we dead in sins? And please explain what that means.
Why does no one want to discuss? ...I guess I will discuss this with myself hmmm ...where was I?
Back to a 'real' discussion.....
Do we both agree the word "dead" in Ephesians 2:1 is the word "nekros"?
Do we agree the word dead is NOT used literally?
Do we agree the word dead is used figuratively?
Do we agree the word dead, if used figuratively is open to interpretation according to context?
Ok, if you agree with the above, we can start looking at what the word "dead" means in context of Eph.
We already know since the "dead" is used figuratively it does not mean physical death, even though the same word "dead" is used 'literally' 3 verses before Eph 2:1 and the word "live" is used literally in the very next verse.
So all agree this is not literally a physical death?
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
4:1 � What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 � Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
2sparrow,, dead in this passage or in any of the passages Paul is speakign about DOSE NOT MEAN DEAD IN SIN, physically in the sense that you died, died , not breathing kinda dead. It means DEAD, to put away no longer interested in sin, denounce sin. To longer allow sin to reign in your flesh (body, we commit sin in the physical, anything that is done in the body is spiritually consider the flesh Body.
NO, this is NOT speakign about dying as in a person is no longer breathing, BUT DYING no longer influenced by sin. Therefore, Paul uses DEAD, DYING, DIED in a speaking sense so that you will know the seriousness of what it means to get rid of sin in your life.
This question DEAD IN SIN, if you're seriously reading and studying God's word, you know these things that Paul is not speaking about dying as going to the grave in the gorund. This is the only way I can explain this to you.
Therewould be discussion if you would stop trying to turn this into your own discussion and say something and or explain what Ephesians chapter 2:1-5 means to you instead of asking and forming your own questions that have nothing to do with the passages.:rolleyes:
Paul uses these terms throughtout his writings comparing and contrasting our spiritual life to our physical life, our physical death to our spiritual death. As he starts out in Ephesians 2:1, And you God has quickened, which only means MADE ALIVE AGAIN, becasue when you were in SIN you were DEAD TO THE SPIRITUAL THINGS OF GOD, and we were walking in darkness according to the course, or ways or principles of this world, and being used by the devil for his own purposes, separated from God, but when we repented of our sin God gave us a NEW LIFE in Christ, and being brn again we are no longer in sin. Sin and darkness were our grave, but in Christ we have live in heaven with Christ.
Its plain an simple if you would stop trying to analyzGet out of your own thounght and receive Christ's thought as the Holy Spirit reveals it to you God's word and receive it spiritually. It doesn't matter what the meaning fo the word means in the Greek, english, French, or in German, what matters is DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPTS AND WHAT THE SCRIPTURES ARE SAYING.
If you cannot explain the basic working of how we are being born again, and why we are in sin , and how and what it is Jesus did for us on the cross... then I say, NASA, WE'VE GOT A SERIOUS PROBLEM GOING ON HERE.
As I always say, the word of God CANNOT BE EXPLAINED BY MAN'S INTERP[RETATION, THE WORD OF GOD MUST BE EXPLAINED AND KNOWN THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT'S REVEALTION...
That being siad, what time would you like to have klunch?:eat::dancingp::party:
So what does it really mean to figuratively use the phrase "spiritually dead"?
This word "dead" is used figuratively for the spirit of man because God is the only one that possess real eternal life. Realitive to God, mans spirit is dead. We are dead because we do not posses the real thing.
The spirit of man seperated from God is condemned to death, this explains verse 3 "objects of wrath" and in verse 5 the spirit of man is "saved".
God has given man a spirit at creation. The fall of man condemned man's spirit to death by separating mans spirit from the only source of eternal life. Man is "dead in your transgressions and sins"
Being seperated from God has other ramifications such as continual sin which confirm in each of us the fall of man.
HOWEVER,....
This verse in context, in No Way denies man is incapable of responding to God when he calls.
Common sense dictates God can speak so even the dead hear him.
It is my desire to treat you with the utmost respect. This is getting more difficult as you get more mouthy. It is evident you are not understanding my posts, because you attack a position I do not advocate! Please read with understanding, if you don't understand something, please ask, I will be happy to explain. it will save you alot of typing!
Ok, this is getting frustrating, seems people just want to argue and voice their own opinions, instead of looking seriously at a passage of Scripture. They all want to skip the first three context steps and just get into the last one so as to promote their particular doctrine.
CONTEXT of the word in a sentence.
CONTEXT of the word and sentence in the passage.
CONTEXT of the word, sentence and passage in the book.
CONTEXT of the word, sentence, passage and book in the Bible.
Seems no one wants to put up with sound bible study, just wanting to tickle their own ears and voice preconceived doctrines.
Paul is speaking to Gentile believers saying basically :
You Gentiles were clueless to God at one time and dead spiritually. We Jews (although not clueless to God) were also spiritually dead. It is only through Jesus that we are all brought together as one and given new eternal spiritual life.
This has nothing to do with "Not being able to respond to God when he calls" as some people teach.
2sparrow, yeeey, now listen at you! ...mouthy? yes, to you it may be mouthy, so take the mouthy challenge and explain to me how/what you see what Paul is saying aboutbeing DEAD IN SIN, to mean. So far you have not done this... oookayyy..
What I hear, and as I see it, based on your questions and response you are not addressing the question of the topic therefore, I will speak accordingly. I respect your utmost respect toward me, as I have toward you, but that doesn't rule out what I preceive in your responses nor does it stop me "MOUTHY CHALLENGES" for answer from you.
And I do understand that what you THINK you are trying to say, and what you are trying to say, it indicates to me, that you are not showing a fair sign that you do have a clear spiritual insight OR undersanding as to what the scriptures are saying about us being DEAD IN SIN and MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST, by the questions you are asking and your responses. Nor have you offer YOUR explaination of the passage as to what Paul means when he says we were DEAD IN SIN.
So dont you go getting fresh mouth with me, unless you can explain what it is your are saying, not only for me, but for the readers who are reading your responses. Maybe YOU don't understand what you are saying, BUT since you feel I don't understand, then be spirituallyminded and wise enough, if you are placing yourself in a positionas a teacher in the word, or as a person who has knowledge in the word, explain to me, and others what it is you are saying. Because if I don't undertsnad, for sure, no one else does either, outside of yourself. So Make it plain and clear, simple and direct for me, and all others who are lost in what you're trying, or what it is you're saying.
Explain to ALL OF US, what it is you are saying so tha WE ALL will better understand and be illuminated... thank you very much:bow::bouncy:
