...............A...hmm...uh.......do you not also believe in being helpful?.............................. This is a very ignorant thing to do in a discussion. So (and note, if you had some inductive reasoning, which you probably have more than you give yourself credit, you might have already answered this question), what is the will?
The Arminians say, 'Christ died for all men.' Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, 'No, certainly not.' We ask them the next question: Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer 'No.' They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, 'No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if ?' and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, 'No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.' We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.
"I will exhort you with these words anyone can go to the spirit of truth and find the truth, but you have to desire the truth, and be willing to walk in it. It is not God's responsibility for you to come to the truth it is your's." Wait, do we have to desire to come to the truth first or will it first? Would you consider the will of man to be an independent, self-determining power, like a man within a man? Or does our will simply carry out our desires?
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Here is my answer:
Limited or Unlimited Atonement?
Posted : 6 Feb, 2011 01:42 PM
Presby,
You cannot get around the fact that God created man,....but there is more....God created man in His image....but wait there is more.....God created man knowing that Adam and Eve would fall. Do you see where I am going with this? ....Who knows what God put into the design of man ahead of time. In addition God is Sovereign, He does not have to treat every individual the same. He can choose to raise up a man for His purposes, such as a Pharoah or a Moses. Being God, He has the ability to treat everyone as a individual. Therefore no one size fits all.
Wow, I thought Charles Spurgeon had more on the ball than that.....hmmmm, maybe this is where you get your demeanor?
The Bible is very clear as to the extent of Atonement, it is greater than Calvinism claim and Arminians claim, and before you jump the gun, I am not a believer in Universalism.
So, are you saying the will of man is relative to each person? or that God is only sovereign over those he chooses to be sovereign and the rest get to make their own decisions?
"The Bible is very clear as to the extent of Atonement, it is greater than Calvinism claim and Arminians claim, and before you jump the gun, I am not a believer in Universalism."
So, may I ask, for whom do you believe Christ died?
So, are you saying the will of man is relative to each person? or that God is only sovereign over those he chooses to be sovereign and the rest get to make their own decisions?
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Answer:
Yes, and how God chooses to deal with them.
No, God is Sovereign period, exercising Sovereignty is another question.
Wow, I thought Charles Spurgeon had more on the ball than that.....hmmmm, maybe this is where you get your demeanor?
James replies:
I apologize for my demeanor, at times I am a bit over the top.
Since you mentioned Spurgeon, the prince of preachers, I am wondering if maybe you attend the local Baptist church?
Southern Baptists are a kind of stealth Calvinist church.
Their pastors are taught the five points, or the doctrines of grace as they call them, in seminary, and then because the pastor then finds out about 20% Christians will react badly toward those truths, they graduate from seminary, and get hired as a pastor, and they NEVER mention the doctrines of Grace again, and are very careful not to mention any of those verses.
And yes, Spurgeon is a Calvinist, but so are most of the heavyweight Bible scholars throughout history! If you want to blame the right person for the detailed teaching of predestination, you have to go back to Augustine in 400AD!
Luther actually wrote a book called "The bondage of the will" and if you ask the average Lutheran today, they are Arminian, and have never heard of Luther's book, which he said was the most important thing he ever did.
twosparrows said:
The Bible is very clear as to the extent of Atonement, it is greater than Calvinism claim and Arminians claim, and before you jump the gun, I am not a believer in Universalism.
James replies:
Well, that is a good point, because Universalists use the same verses that Arminians do.
I have given the verses that show why I believe that Jesus died for a specific group of people. But have you ever thought about other reasons that Jesus did not die for everyone who ever lived?
# God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for
# Mark 9:43-44 If one were to say, �their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,� he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin
# Heb 3:12 [�The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!� � John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ] God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]
" I apologize for my demeanor, at times I am a bit over the top."
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James,
Suppose I said to you : "You are not the only Calvinist who has offended me in this forum, however because you apologized I forgive you."
Or if I said : "You are not the only Calvinist who has offended me in this forum. However because you are in the 10% of them I have arbitrarily picked to forgive, I forgive you."
What about if I said : You are not the only Calvinist who has offended me in this forum. However because of My nature I had already decided before I came on this forum to forgive ALL who offended me, you are already forgiven.
Which one of these responses makes it about me and which two make it about you?
