there weren't any Calvinists or Armenians? Then what would you have to talk about? Is it necessary to debate Theology when the world around us needs Truth? What will Jesus find us doing when he returns? Will we be bickering among ourselves about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin or will we be discipling others in the Truth of the Scriptures and teaching them to be followers of Jesus? I have little or next to no use for Theologians if their theology is all they can talk about. They are no more good than the Pharisees and Sadducees they sound like! How about putting your "mytheology" aside and rolling up your sleeves and getting a little "dirty" digging for Truth instead of scratching the surface for theory?
"Presby, their is a difference between "what is true" and Truth. I'm talking about Truth. If the Word is Truth then it is Truth for all and for all time. " What is true" is generally based on facts and facts change where Truth never changes. It is absolute and eternal. It is the essence of God and the reflection of His character and nature. It cannot be found in Theology but is rather known in experiencing the presence of God and hearing His voice expressed in His Word and by His Spirit. A person can be a Theologian and never know Truth and one can know Truth without ever being a Theologian."
Oh, well that news to me. And is it a fact that the truth is always the truth? Is that something you consider to be true? Would you not consider truth to be something that is true?
Dude,you said, "[Truth] cannot be found in Theology but is rather known in experiencing the presence of God and hearing His voice expressed in His Word and by His Spirit."
Do you even know what theology is? Some people went over it, but since you apparently missed it, here it is again. "Theology" come from the Greek word "theo" meaning "God and the suffix means "study of." Thus, a combination of the two means a study of God. Thusly, when you say something about God you are spewing out your theology. Thricly thus, you may think one theology better than another, but you cannot escape it.
Let me speak plainly for a moment, you are using your own theology about God to try and rip apart theology all together, and it is simply not working. Take this for example, if the Bible is the Word of God, the "truth," perfect and good, and sufficient, and holy, and perspicuous (meaning clear, easy to understand) and we learn about God through it, for it is His revelation of Himself to us and the only mean by which we can properly *know* God, ***then*** how is it *wrong* to create a term that is simply a verbal shortcut to describe what one thinks the Bible teaches about God????
The correct answer is, it is not wrong. On the other hand, it is *absolutely* wrong to derive your theology by any other means than Scripture. By using the term "Calvinist," we are simply surmising our beliefs in a recognized word with an appeal to *God's Word*, not man's word.
If it were not so, then this is how many conversations would sound with Calvinists: Someone asks a Calvinist, "Are you a Calvinist?" "Why, yes I am," the Calvinist said. "Why do you think Calvinism agrees with the Bible?" To which the Calvinist responds, "The Bible? HA, silly fool. I don't care about the Bible. John Calvin didn't care about the Bible either, in fact, He was really a Muslim. The Bible is full of theology and thus not the truth. So I follow John Calvin because I hate theology."
That's pretty much how it would sound or some other such unrealistic, absurd conversation. Theology is found in the study of God's Word, and if that is wrong, you may as well be a Muslim because theology matters. If you do not have the right view of God, which is according to the Bible, then you cannot be saved.
Please read the whole post before responding so that nothing is taken out of context.
You know, as a Christian in the classic historic sense. A Christian who has great respect for the body of Christ, and the conclusions about the Bible that they have agreed on for two thousand years, it is an uphill battle with Modern American Christians, in getting them to at least CONSIDER the verses of the Bible that they IGNORE.
How many times have I said in the past week on this board that "Calvinism is just a NICKNAME for five points of doctrine."?
Flyby has read my words repeating this point and he KNOWS it, but STILL he give us "gems" like this one today:
"Calvinism and Arminianism (more ism�s) is nothing short of man worship, idolatry,"
So, according to flyby, if you have any words that describe your theology that ends with an "ism" you are worshiping man, and hence engaging in Idolatry. Yet he actually wrote a post supporting KJV onlyism, just the other day.
This is childish, and should be ignored. You can't get far in studying church history and you will find out that over 95% of ALL Christians for the last two thousand years have believed in Trinitarianism.
So with SOME Christians, it does not matter how many times you tell the truth, they are ARMINIANS who are against God being soveriegn in salvation and will use ANY excuse, and trick they can think of, to muddy up the FACTS.
What they HATE is the fact that God chose whom He would save before the foundation of the world, and they want a hyper-sentimental "Santa clause" god that will not violate any of the ways they already decided that God should follow!
If you want proof of this, just list the Scriptures that SAY that God chooses whom He will have mercy on, and their responses will show you what they are really mad about!
In the short time I have been on this group "ThunderofGod" basically stays off this section of the board, and then gets back on when any Calvinist is giving evidence for the doctrines of Grace.
Here are some of his latest comments and my response:
Thunder said:
"they regard their theology more important than finding the Truth."
James replies:
I think thunder means "Calvinists won't question their own interpretation, because they will find out they are wrong."
Well, two points on this. 1. Calvinism, which is SMALL part of Reformed theology, is GROUNDED in the HISTORICAL Christian faith. We say the Apostles Creed, and consider creeds and confessions VERY important. In other words, WE...........have the majority of Christians and Christian theologians and teachers THROUGHOUT HISTORY, on our side.
Arminianism did not START until the last half hour of church history! The Reformers made a HUGE point out of saying that they were NOT teaching anything new.
2. Christians are NATURALLY Arminian. We ALL START out that way. "Of Course Jesus died for everyone"!
MANY Calvinists were ONCE Arminians and GRADUALLY accepted what the Bible says about fallen mankind, and salvation, and their security, etc.
Thunder said:
Anyway, my point is simply that the constant bombardment of bickering and insulsts between Arminians and Calvinists on this site are not really that important in that they don't seem to be adding to the building up of others in the Faith.
James replies:
Many times, it takes a long time for Christians who have thought a certain way about God for many years, and have heard a hundred Arminian sermons, to ACCEPT what they are reading when Calvinists put up scripture lists. Just because you show someone in John 6 or Romans 9 the verses where it is POINT BLANK that GOD CHOOSES whom He will save, does NOT mean that a Christian will instantly accept it. Let them keep reading, through the years, in private, and they will START TO NOTICE verse after verse that says, "appointed to eternal life" "Destined to serve God" "chosen" "Predestined" etc.
Thunder said:
I have read a lot of Church History and I am ashamed of most of it Do you mean heritics like the murderous John Calvin? We will always have heritics.
James replies:
This is sad, and completely untrue. Look Thunder, you live in a FALLEN world, and ANY Christian who does great things for God WILL BE HATED. Roman Catholics, and Arminian groups, put up all kinds of lies about John Calvin, and don't think I have not noticed that you TRIED, just like flyby did, to MAKE IT ABOUT A MAN instead of five points of doctrine your post is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.
You wish to talk about John Calvin, start a new thread. I will happy to address LIES on the internet that Rome and other groups have posted.
Thunder continues:
." Right, a discussion board about the Bible and not your theological agenda.
James replies:
another nonsensical statement, ALL Christians HAVE to interpret the Bible when they read it, and hence ALL Christians MUST engage in Theology (the study of God).
Thunder continues:
" Whenever you tout the teachings of a moron like Calvin or Arminius you are not teaching the Truth. As long as your knowledge of the word is based on the teachings of men you have no grounds to assume you actually know the Truth. The Truth is a person with whom you have relationship not a book you cuddle up with to support your twisted doctrines.
James replies:
This is indeed a VERY bad attitude! First off, I have NOT posted the "Teachings of Calvin", I posted A LIST OF SCRIPTURES THAT SUPPORT ONLY TWO POINTS OF CALVINISM.
Calling Calvin a moron, shows you two things: 1. you have no clue of the sholarship of Calvin 2. ONCE AGAIN, you try and make it about the MAN john Calvin, and NOT the five points of DOCTRINE we are supposed to be talking about!
Now notice carefully your second sentence here: " As long as your knowledge of the word is based on the teachings of men you have no grounds to assume you actually know the Truth"
What a TERRIBLE ATTITUDE! Paul says, in teaching that we NEED the body of Christ, he says, "Does the hand say to the foot, I have no need of you?"
Well, Thunder just advocated "private interpretation only, and IGNORE the body of Christ!"
And.....he calls the body of Christ, ALL YOUR Christian brothers and sisters, COLLECTIVE WISDOM for two thousand years, as mere, "traditions of men"!!!
Please have a change of heart on this Thunder!!
Here is a sentence to remember: "Church history should not rule our interpretation, but it should guide our interpretation."
Thunder you go on to complain about bad theology, but offer no solution to avoid it! private interpretation will only increase it.
Here is THE way......immerse yourself in classic HISTORIC Christian belief. And be more HONEST about what you don't like about the Five points of Calvinism. learn the rules of interpretation, and study church history, and the writings of the Reformers and the Puritans.
Go to www.monergism.com and bypass ALL the bad theology, and QUESTION your OWN beliefs, in light of the Scripture lists that Calvinists post. Lower your opinion of fallen mankind and Raise your opinion of God and His Mercy towards you.
Well all you need to do is read the post to know what is said is not from theology, but from the word of man, that is the whole point, Calvinist followers have a lot of opinion's but deny the truth of God's word, thus their theory is what you are calling theology.
Thunder you cry about everybody just getting along and why must we discuss theology,this is absurd!What you really mean is,why cant everyone agree with me,and if you don't,your wrong!And you try to always bring the discussion back to Calvin when it has nothing to do with him except that he believed in and articulated a position which was already believed by many before him(including Paul and the other authors of the scriptures)that God does indeed have ultimate control and authority over HIS CREATION,imagine that the created thing is actually subject to the uncreated thing that created it,amazing
For some reason,man always wants to hold on to his own sovereignty,control.......Free will.......which,by the way you wont find mentioned in the bible anywhere.
give it up
If all you want to do is raise your hands and praise god,you are free to do so,I do that too
If you want to pray for people or build people up,you go boy,I do that too
but this is a discussion board purposely designed to discuss such topics
Armenians always want to give their position and cry foul when they are proven wrong and say we shouldn't discuss theology.....hunh?
So you can give your views but if someone else shows you the error in your thinking that is childish and mean spirited
What's absurd is your mean-spirited attack on Thunder.
Not one thing in his post was un-true.
The calvinists on this board aren't doing one thing to encourage the Body of Christ. They post LONG posts to try to brow beat others into believing what they believe.
Then when someone disagrees with their false doctrine they belittle them.
You're right. Long replies may be of the devil. Jesus just called those who tried to add works onto salvation broods of vipers and white washed tombs filled with dead man's bones and was done with them lol.
I will make one final statement to those who did not get the point. As long as you are more concerned about Christianity and Christendom than you are about Truth (and I don't mean the truth) you are missing the point of Jesus' ministry. Jesus didn't come her to start a religion, that was apparently the job of the Apostles. I have nothing against Theology or the church except that they both are able to lead people away from Truth.
Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." If you do not walk the Way you will not know Truth and you will never have Life. Which is more important, your Christianity or Truth? I say Truth. I'm not right about everything I say and I believe I have been humble enough here to be teachable and admit when I am wrong. I want to learn from other believers. I don't have a handle on everything in the Bible but I do believe in knowing the Word and not knowing about Him. Theology tells me all about Him but does little to actually allow me to know Him.
Maybe the difference for me is that I don't depend on Christianity to define my faith. Church History is the history of the development of a religion but has nothing to do with our life with God. My faith is in God and His Truth and only He defines my Faith not a religion.
While I agree with most of what you have said here, I do believe sound doctrine to be important. I deal with people every day who think God has abandoned them because they can't "feel" His presence anymore. This is only because of an absence of sound doctrine. God is not a feeling. I could go much deeper into the view most prison inmates get taught, but it would just stir things up more. These poor guys think that salvation works like a yo-yo, saved-not saved. No one has ever explained Blessed Assurance, or that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient. It is just nuts.
