1) Acually the Calvinists attacked the Arminians, beheading and killing them the rest fled the country after the Synod of Dort. (How could you say such a thing?)
James replies:
You got some bad information concerning the Arminians.
I will repeat what I said and add some details.
After the Reformation, there was a theology professor named James Arminius. He was very admired by his students, and he taught "Jesus died for everyone/ God only chooses because He saw you would have faith/ the fall hurt us be can still come to God on our own/God's grace can be resisted/ it is possible for a true Christian to lose their salvation.
James Arminius suddenly died, and when he did, his former students drew up those five points and presented them to the Protestant churches. There was a huge theological council called the Remonstrance and ALL FIVE POINTS were rejected.
It was a sad day, and you had some fathers and sons coming down on opposite sides, SO I REPEAT what I said before....
1. Before the Arminians came and confronted the church about five things they didn't like that the protestants all believed, I was just a Christian, or to a Papist, a Protestant. But since the Arminians came and literally CAUSED the first great division among Protestants, I am NOW labeled a Calvinist. Calvinism is just a nickname for five points of Doctrine. and it even bothers me MORE because in America, most Christians are Arminian, and don't even know it!! Take Phillipjohn for example..... He won't admit to it, but he is, and so Arminians get away with out a label, EVEN THOUGH, their beliefs are NOT what Christians have believed historically, which brings me to my next point:
TwoSparrows said:
2) The reason neither is taught is because we really don't care much what two guys 500 years ago thought about Scripture when we have the same Scripture in front of us now.
James replies:
That is wrong also. BOTH sides are taught! It is just that in America, most Christian churches are arminian, and they never mention the word, the history, OR the scripture verses that show that they are wrong. And Christians DO CARE!
Look in the phone book in the church section, and see the ones that have the word "presbytarian" or "Reformed" in the Title.
It is NOT what "two guys taught 500 years ago" it is WHAT CHRISTIANS HAVE BELIEVED THROUGHOUT 2000 YEARS.The Bible says three times in proverbs that "there is wisdom in many counselors", and you and I live in a time where the average Christian could care less about all the Christians who lived before them, and what they believed about the Bible. This is a bad thing, and the Bible says that we NEED the body of Christ.
Twosparrows said:
3) Yes you posted over 30 verses ......with your preconceived meanings poured into them. Anyone can do that with any thing. Why don't you try picking your best verse for "TOTAL" depravity and we'll go from there......???
James replies:
(Romans 3:10-12) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
According to Paul NO ONE seeks for God.
(1 Corinthians 2:14) "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
According to Paul natural man does NOT have the ABILITY.
(John 3:3) "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
According to Jesus, natural man cannot even SEE the kingdom of God.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
According to Jesus, NO MAN CAN come to him unless the Father draws them.
Paul says that natural man does not have the ability, and Jesus says that natural man does not have the ability, and the REASON for this, is because of THE FALL.
I think the problem here is understanding the biblical meaning of what it means by being totally depraved (deprivity) ...
I must agree, that we are totally depraved, incapable, have no ability or whatever you care to call it, we are without any means to save ourselves or do much of anything to please God, because man is corrupt. For we ALL FALL SHORT OF HIS GLORY.
James and Leon state correctly what Jesus Paul teaches us in Romans chapter 3 -8 and throughout the Bible.
If we were capable, or had the ability to save ourselves OR were no depraved, Christ's dead would not have been necessary, and is in vain. We have no righteousness of our own to please God, and this is the purpose of the cross and the blood of Jesus which brings us into righteousness (right standing) before God by faith and grace, and move us toward God's righeousness.
We lost our righteousness through Adam which made us depraved.Adam was sinless when he was in the garden until he disobeyed God. Man's loss of total innocents becasue of sins, which Adam was innocent of any sins, and was righteous before God, up until he sinned in disobedience in the garden, which caused him to lose righteousness and love for God, be begame corrupt, just as we ALL today. Man's moral nature toward God is corrupt as Paul points out in Roman chapter 3, by our sin nature through Adam, and becasue of man's love for evl, doing things his own way.
Man is depraved because he can do nothing perfect to pleased God, no matter how he tries, man can't even love God with his whole heart, or his neighbor as himself, nor can man live a godly life style as according to what God says, because man (you, me) is depraved (do not have any righteousness of our own)
And because we do not have the ability, without the saving grace of God to help him/us, this makes us totally depraved, DEPENDANT ON GOD for everything especially His grace to save us in all things, and without grace there is no salvation. Grace saved us, grace helps us in our lives daily in all things, we did not save ourselves, we cannot save ourselve, we can do NOTHING wihtout God's amazing grace, which makes us totally depraved, totally incapable, totally enable to do anything without God.
QUESTION: If man is NOT totally depraved, where then does reconciliation come into play?
BTW, man being totally depreaved is not a Calvin or Arminius (misspelled) thing, its a God thing way before the foundation of the earth, God knew man would have need of His every help in all things. If we weren't totally depraved (which only means without righteousness and the ability to do anything on our own) ...why did God decree and ordain the sacrifice of His Only Son (Himself) to save man whom He created?
I also agree Calin and SArminus got a lot of things wrong, but they were stll chosen men of God, just as Paul and Peter and all the other disciples.apostles...
1) "The Moody Handbook of Theology" by Paul Enns, � 1989 The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, page 490, "Persecution followed the Synod's decision. Two hundred Arminian pastors lost their posts; the statesman John van Olden Barneveldt was beheaded; Hugo Grotius was condemned and imprisoned for life....Many Arminians fled the country."
2) The point is neither Calvin nor Arminian has a book in the Bible.
3) 1Cor 2:14 and John 3:3 are contrasting "Born Again" believers with nonbelievers. Rom 3:10-12, John 6:49, John 6:65 all say God seeks man and draws him.
***Not one of your 5 best scriptures denies God created man with a innate ability to respond to the Holy Spirit when God calls.
2sparrow, all of James' scriptures point to the fact that man is depraved. Yeah, what you're missing here is GRACE! ... what is grace, God's unmerit favor, that Gd shows toward us even though we don't deserve it. Ephesians chapter 2, is a good place to start. As Paul write in RomansWhile we were YET sinners, Christ died for us. Christ's death brought us life.
Also, I found this, which explains much about totally depravity and makes it clearer.
Question: "Total Depravity - is it Biblical?"
Answer: Total Depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the �T� in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name �total depravity� can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like �Total Inability�, �Righteous Incapability�, �Radical Corruption� or even �Moral Inability�. Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to �Total Depravity� the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.
While often misunderstood, the doctrine of Total Depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man�his mind, will, emotions and flesh�have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and ��all our righteous acts are like filthy rags� before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or as Jesus says �So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.� (Matthew 7:17-18).
The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man�s heart is �deceitful and desperately wicked� (Jeremiah 17:9) and the thoughts of his heart are �continually evil� (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is �dead in transgressions� (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the Gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is �hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so.� (Romans 8:7).
The Apostle Paul really summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that �both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.� Simply put this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach their children to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child�s sin nature. Instead the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.
Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example we see that: 1�no one is without sin, 2�no one seeks after God, 3�there is no one who is good, 4�their speech is corrupted by sin, 5�their actions are corrupted by sin, 6�and above all they have no fear of God. So when one considers even these few verses mentioned above it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is �totally depraved� because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that �There is none who does good, no not one� (Romans 3:12).
There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. It does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the Law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the �good� things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lay behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His Glory even these good deeds are like �filthy rags� in His sight. In other words, fallen man�s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is �no one who does good, no not one!�
Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that �no one seeks after God,� then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man�s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man�s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the Gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is �dead in trespasses and sins� to be able to understand and respond to the Gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life in a dead sinner that he can �see the kingdom of God.� Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again �not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.� (John 1:12-13).
However even when properly understood, many people will rebel or reject the doctrine of total depravity, but that fact should not surprise us since the world generally thinks of man as being basically good. Therefore the idea that man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious, psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart and the root cause of man�s problem is not the environment he is raised in but that by nature man has a wicked and selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of salvation and recognize that God�s sovereign grace is man�s only hope. While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man�s self righteousness and any misconceptions about man�s ability to be saved through his own free will, it leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew 19:25-26: �Then who can be saved?� Of course the answer remains the same: �With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible� (Matthew 19:25-26).
As the first of the five doctrines of what is called �Calvinism,� the doctrine of total depravity correctly focuses man�s attention on the rest of these �doctrines of grace� which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of sinners.
PJ, First, I want to apologize for my harsh statements to you before. I was right, but that is no excuse for speaking to you that way.
Now, overwhelming scripture was given, in context, and you can still say it is a lie? Please tell us where the scriptures are wrong. They are clear, simple, and directly related to this topic. I know they go against your opinion, but it is what God says that matters. Please read them all in context and address them, if they are wrongly presented.
Here is the scripture that prompted my apology:
Titus 3:2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
Leon you stated it wrong again, I never said scripture was wrong I said your explanation of it is wrong, it is actually the difference of light and darkness. Now Leon go to the scriptures and acknowledge those that prove the unbelief of total depravity, and of total inability. It is a choice you can believe the word of God or the word of man it is a choice, it is not an argument it is the word of life.
Show us where the explanations are wrong, please. You are the one making the accusations, but you haven't shown where or how it is wrong. I will listen, if you can do it.
