I have thought about this issue for a while. So while this post is not directed at anyone on this site, someone did write something the other day that reminded me, and so I am posting this for discussion.
What if you have two people, both are Christians, both attend church, both seek Gods will, both pray daily, both spend time in the Word daily, both earnestly lookward God for direction, for life.
Person 1, after much praying and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, states view X.
Person 2, after much praying and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, states position Not X - or the complete opposite.
Both earnestly believe they are led by the Spirit, yet come up with contradictory positions. What do you do?
The Church is not The Truth! The Church is nothing without Scripture! She is merely a Depository for The Truth...She along with The Holy Spirit Ensuring the SafeKeeping of The Truth is the Safety Deposit Box where Christ placed His Truths.
Where else are we to go?
�Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,..."
We can put our trust in man's interpretation or trust Jesus' Own Words and Promise?
�Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,..."
Well, I guess all we disagree on is what the "church" is! And the church doesn't get to decide what is truth either, the scriptures do. The "church"(body of believers) is supposed to proclaim the word of truth that they have "rightly" divided, meaning there is a wrong way to divide it also. I think the "right" way is to compare scripture with scripture and let the bible interpret itself.
I would argue that using Scripture to deduce or "interpret" Scripture is Circular Reasoning and therefore not logical.
Why can't what the writers intended stand alone?
The Church was present when Scripture was written and the writers were available for questioning. Also Christ Himself Instructed and Taught The Apostles everything they needed to know and left them The Full Deposit of Faith (which along with The Holy Spirit ensures it's SafeKeeping).
We complicate things by trying to "discern" what was really meant by the writers of Scripture...instead of believing what The Church has held to be True for ages.
"I would argue that using Scripture to deduce or "interpret" Scripture is Circular Reasoning and therefore not logical."
Steve, that statement is as far from the truth as you can get. If you are unsure a author's meaning, you compare it with other things he has written on the same topic to gain the authors intended meaning. That is how it is done! In this case the author is God.
The way you would have me determine the intended meaning of a verse is to ask a different author who claims to have authority. I am not opposed to asking what they think the intended meaning is, but this I know is for sure : Before God I am the one responsible for what I choose to believe, no church is going to step up beside me and say, sorry God we told him that, we'll take the blame.
If the �Church� holds all the truth, why does God rebuke 5 out of 7 churches in the second and third chapters of Revelations? People mess up. People misinterpret scripture and teach others to do the same. The church (body of Christ) has misled others before and will continue to do so until the end of time. We CANNOT rely on others to teach us the truth about scripture because the �Church� does NOT hold authority over God�s truth.
Shawn:
The truth is this: God is the only one who can unravel the mysteries of the Bible and of Himself to us. The scriptures are here for us to search and struggle with, but ultimately understanding God takes more than a lifetime. Two people can come up with two different beliefs because they are in two different places in their life. Think about this: Nobody leads other people while believing they are in the wrong. Even Hitler believed his cause was just in God�s eyes.
Likewise, a person can believe that the Holy Spirit has led them to a great revelation about God, and they may be right, or they may be wrong. But either way, they will believe they are right and try to convince others to follow their beliefs. This is why debating about doctrine causes so much dissension among Christians, as is very clear from all the heated remarks on these forums.
The problem is not that the Holy Spirit leads two people in complete opposite directions. The problem is that we have too much pride to acknowledge that we could be wrong.
You brought up �Logical Fallacies� in an earlier post. You could be accused of committing one now with your statement. It is a �Non Sequitur� to assume that just because God Rebukes a Church it does not mean that He Established a Church on earth and gave that Church Sole Authority over Scripture.
If you read the writings of The Early Church�these same �chastisements� are sent from Rome in the form of Letters to the Churches.
You are correct when you say:
�People mess up. People misinterpret scripture and teach others to do the same.�
That is why God Created a Teaching Church to ensure that His Sheep know what is the correct Interpretation and so that His Sheep are Fed with the Correct Word.
Chuck,
God INSPIRED Scripture. The Holy Spirit did not DICTATE what was to be written. The author of the Gospel according to John was The Apostle John. Who better to �ask� any questions about what John meant�then John? Add to that the fact that you had Jesus Himself give The Full Deposit of Faith and you have what I have been trying to tell you.
I respectully disagree. I cannot, and will not, take my understanding of God from anything other than scripture and God's revelation of it in my heart. I do not subscribe to the idea that a group of people has more authority over scripture than God's revelation of it in me. Sorry.
If the apostle John was sitting in Rome and this very minute so we could ask him what he meant, then your statement would have some credibility. However we as Spirit filled Christians have Jesus inside of us through the Holy Spirit, and we do ask Him all the time what verses mean. And He guides us as promised into all truth.
The Bible is true. Yet it does not become truth until we personally experience it. Example: Jesus died on the cross for my sins. I knew that true statement from as young as I can remember. Yet there was a day that it became truth for me. As a child I grew up in the truth-proclaiming I was a child of God from an early age. I struggled as a teen and as some would term back slit. I will never forget Fathers Day, 1993. Preg. out of wedlock, do I turn back to God? Well I did. At that time that I 'rededicated my life' things were different. I can recall hearing God speaking to me like never before. He was guiding me, that verse about His sheep hear His voice-oh, I knew that was to be, I had heard that preached for years but it wasn't until that day that I knew the truth. Ok, that was 2 different examples. Look back in your life. As some call it that 18 inches from the head to the heart issue. There is a difference when you know a true statement from scripture, and then one day God plants it in your heart and then the 'light bulb' or how ever you want to term it. God gave you the truth personally(the relationship aspect of salvation). And it happens no other way. So until God/Holy Spirit puts the truth into your heart you only know what is true. A different outlook and understanding of God's Holy Word.
