53 Jesus said to them, �Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.� 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
It has been proposed that we continue with our discussion on differences between Catholics and nonCatholics.
Thunder, the chapter in Corinthians implies that the new believer's were "doing this"(keeping communion) in remembrance of Jesus. I don't think it's necessarily commanded that we have to do it to be saved, but Jesus did ask us to do it to at least remember Him.
You have to admit that was a pretty poor answer, if it could be considered a answer at all. But since the answer is only found in the Catholic bible, I suppose I should let you off the hook.
Disciples???...No, just other believers that read the bible and are led by the by the Spirit and not by the Catholic church....they are 'Disciples of Jesus'
Arch no one can defend any church, any more than one can defend the Lord, no titled church ordained by man, including Catholic has any merit with the lord, now or ever, and yes that includes baptist.
You can drop your "pearls" elsewhere. I just had the carpet cleaned. Play at "church"...whatever you and God have decided. Just refrain from spouting lies and half-truths. You have no desire to discuss beliefs. You do not have the first idea of how it's done.
I apologize to all who had to witness all this childishness.
I still can not get over how for 28 years you put up with all the lies and mistakes of The Catholic Church?
(" I still can not get over how for 28 years you put up with all the lies and mistakes of The Catholic Church?")
---answer---
It was easy until I studied the Bible for myself and the Holy Spirit led me into truth. Please do not interpret my answer as sarcasm, it is a honest truthful answer.
Btw, I take it, you do NOT want my answer on 'Transubstautiation'?
Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other.
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowlege and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ
If you were to ask John what he meant with his writings�specifically John 6:26-48 and John told you that Jesus was speaking metaphorically�would you believe John?
If John then told you that Jesus was not speaking metaphorically in verses 52-64...that Jesus is not speaking symbolically, but is actually talking about His Flesh and Blood and that many of those present �left Jesus� because of what Jesus was saying. Would you believe him?
Those that heard John Preach�that heard John explain these things�believed him! The Church Believed him! What John and The Apostles Taught and Preached�was Believed by The Church and this ORAL TEACHING combined with what Christ Taught them combined with Sacred Scripture�is the Full Deposit of Faith.
The Church Knew what John was saying in his book. They Did Not Need Strong�s Accordion to understand Scripture.
After the rebellion, the Protestant exegetes (Delitzsch, Kostlin, Keil, Kahnis, and others) agreed with the Real Presence of Christ.
To argue that 1,000's left Him because in just these few words Christ had �summed� up all the difficulties involved with �Following Him� is�frankly�nonsensical.
Verses
54 He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will raise him up in the last day.
The word is Gnaw�Chew. Jesus� was clear about eating flesh.
56 He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him
Again�Chew�Gnaw.
57 As the living Father has sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, the same also shall live by me.
The rare form of the word , trogein is used.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers ate manna and are dead. He that eats this bread shall live for ever."
Once more�Gnaw�Chew. Jesus was understood Literally. It frighten many.
In 6:51-58, two different Greek verbs for "eat" occur a total of 8 times. The more common of the two, phagein, is used 158 times in the NT; it's used 15 times in John (four times in this passage; vs. 51, 52, 53, 58). The more rare form, trogein, is used only 6 times in the NT, four of the occurrences here in this passage
(vs. 54, 56, 57, 58),
with the other two having a negative impact: Mt. 24:38, describing the eating of the people before Noah; and John 13:18, a reference to Judas' eating next to Jesus at the Last Supper.
The lexicons make John's choice of words here even more shocking as they allude to the fact that
trogein is generally used of animals gnawing audibly on their food.
It would seem to be a choice of words for "eat" to convey a more 'primitive,' i.e., less prim and proper, form of eating, the kind that might shock the majority of diners when dining "in good company."
Furthermore you have throughout The Bible cases of a ProtoType and Type. In this case you have the ProtoTypes in the Bread and Wine offered by Melchisedech, the Loaves of Bread and Fish, the Paschal Lamb with The Eucharist being the Type.
The impossibility of a figurative interpretation is brought home more forcibly by an analysis of the following text:
"Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:54-56).
I do not see how those verses can be understood as anything but what they say. Are we to deny that God can do this if He so chooses? The Church accepted this as Gospel�as Truth�who are we to now say that this is not so and point to our Better Understanding of Scripture?
The Zwinglian and Anglican interpretation of the passage, "It is the spirit that quickeneth", etc. implies that Jesus was trying to bring them back by reassuring them that His words were �just that��words and that it is �the Spirit� not The Flesh that nourishes the soul. This line continues even today. It does not make sense either syntactically or literally, because if they believed Him (Jesus)�they would have returned.
Christ did not say: "My flesh is spirit", i.e. to be understood in a figurative sense, but: "My words are spirit and life". It can be argued (and has been) that it was the intention of Jesus in this passage to give prominence to the fact that the sublime mystery of the Eucharist can be grasped in the light of supernatural faith alone, whereas it cannot be understood by the carnal-minded, who are weighed down under the burden of sin.
I have more that I will post later.
Thank all of you that have answered in Love and with Dignity.
In John 6:63, Jesus goes on to answer their protest by pointing out that his words were to be understood spiritually. �It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are life.�
By stating that the Eucharist is the actual presence of Christ, the Catholic church is essentially denying the sufficiency of Christ�s death on the cross. It is a �re-sacrifice� or a �re-offering of Christ�s sacrifice. But Christ does not need to be re-sacrificed. He stated �It is finished!� at the cross�If Christ is again to be back on the cross in this manner, why does the author of the book of Hebrews state the contrary?
"Unlike the other high priests, He (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself." � Hebrews 7:27
"For Christ died for sins ONCE for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God..." � 1 Peter 3:18
As others have mentioned, Christ stated to do this �in remembrance� of Him. As a memorial.
If Christ�s actual body and blood were represented, why does Paul say the contrary?
�I appeal to you therefore, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.� 1 Corth. 11:24-25.
