I have no desire to debate any article you post here, or with the authors thereof. Instead of pasting articles you read on the internet, why not discuss your views and answer my questions from your Bible.
Dispensationalists believe we are now in the age of Grace. However, I believe the Grace of God was first revealed in the Garden of Eden when God made the clothing for Adam and Eve. It was His mercy that kept Him from destroying them and His grace that clothed them in the skin of a sacrificed animal.
@ all
It seems to me that there are many dispensationalists that believe in Replacement Theology as well. They are also the ones who believe we go to heaven when we die and that we will all spend eternity there. In fact the Bible doesn't reveal either of these things.
Many of the Christian books I have read are written before dispensationalism became prevalent and some during the time it was a controversial topic among Theologians. The first believers in it were thrown out of churches for being heretics. It got a huge boost in popular Theology when it was the framework for the notes in Scoffield's Bible. It was suddenly very popular among Christian College students and eventually became the "Truth".
To all concerned I am not picking a fight here. We would be in error to concern ourselves with church history. Why would I want to study a mans view????
Look at it like this- How many times did christian leaders kill jews who would not convert and say it was of God. Are we to support this style of thinking.Some of the same people who were great christian leaders wrote that the church was Israel now.They did it to write out the jews then sent people into the jewish sections of town for a pogram.
If the jews did not convert they lost their kids. This is what the catholics and protestants did to the jews.They also wrote that the jews were christ killers and removed any statement that said Israel was going to be reinstated. This is a fact of history.
I offer no apology for the truth here.I am making a point.In early American history our church leaders did say we were the new Israel.
The Catholic church may have claimed this also.
Do you see my point. I wrote this in a friendly response to Sir james and halfback.
Israel is Israel and always will be.When the bible speaks of the church it is seperate of Israel. All such things should be kept seperate always.
I do not keep up on certain words. What is dispensationalist ?
Do you think I may fit that term?
No offense taken.
Sir james I think you put too much into church history and want men believe.My view.Nothing wrong with that,ok.:peace: Feel free to disagree. Your friend, Dennis
Klett's phrase "immanentized the eschaton" is very apt, but he does not seem to realize that this confusion has for a long time been normal in popular Dispensationalism. In 1970, Hal Lindsey's book The Late Great Planet Earth showed it clearly enough. "Messianic Judaism" is more of an outgrowth than a cause of this confusion. The great majority of people involved in "Messianic Judaism" are not Jewish--they are mostly Gentile charismatics, who apparently have become so carried away with their end-times fantasies about the Jews that they have begun to play the part themselves. One well-informed source, Stan Telchin of the "Jews for Jesus" ministry, estimates that between eighty and ninety percent of the people involved in "Messianic Judaism" are Gentiles, and he complains that for all its emphasis on Jewishness the movement has failed to attract Jews. He tells of one Jewish woman who was repelled by the spectacle of Gentiles "worshipping the symbols of Judaism," searching their family histories for Jewish ancestors, and trying to observe the ritual commandments of the Torah like Orthodox Jews. She left this "Messianic" scene "filled to overflowing by the wanabees and the Pharisees" and joined an ordinary Christian church where Christ was the center of attention, not Judaism (Messianic Judaism is Not Christianity [Grand Rapids: Chosen, 2004], p. 82)."
Why is this here?I have my own views,ok. I have studied messianic jewish views and celebrate the pasover like they do.
I have listened to the testamony of jews for Jesus. A church I once attended practiced many jewish things on there own.
Give me a scripture that says this is wrong.
Question to all!!!!!!!!!! Will not the church be one body when Jesus returns?So, if we will be one why would we not return to the basics of our faith. Make amends with our Jewish brothers.Messianic believers will become part of the church at some future date or we will become more jewish.
What troubles me is that some may be confused and follow a man instead of reading the word for them selves. So, please do not paste someone's views read the bible and give your views.
Someone wanted to know if there was a passage of Scripture that said not to follow Jewish customs as part of the NT church. Here's one:
2 Col 2:16-17.
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Don't deal with shadows when you have the light of Christ. 'Nuf said.
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About dispensationalism: I see a lot of claims and a lot of referencing scholars, but not much response to direct questions.
SavedInChrist has a lot of great questions. I think it's pretty obvious that Paul wasn't referring to the church when he talked about Israel being blinded until the number of gentiles come in. That just doesn't make sense. If that makes me a dispensationalist, I guess I am one, because I can't make what Paul said there mean that the church is blinded. Sorry, I just CAN'T.
Whoever quoted Justin Martyr I think is dead on the money. The Abrahamic covenant (justification by faith) which was always in operation, despite the period of the law; and now we, as Christians also trust in God through faith. The OT figures looked forward to Christ's coming; we look back to Christ's arrival on the cross -- but the faith is the same.
About the promises God made to Israel as a nation: I'm no expert in OT prophecy, but I think most of those prophecies are already fulfilled (take Isiah's suffering servant prophecies) or will be fulfilled in the millenial kingdom (the lion lying down with the lamb, etc). God will keep his word. I don't see that they have much to do with our job as missionaries, though. We're to spread love of Christ and the knowledge of Him crucified wherever we go, and what happens in the future, He'll work out in accordance with His perfect will.
This Prophecy has not yet been fulfilled;and Yes this is for Israel the Nation.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Hello, in trying to find others that believe in dispensations I saw that you live close to where I live. Have you heard of Berean Bible Ministries in San Juan Capistrano? http://helpersofyourjoy.com/
I just moved down here in April from San Jose because of Bible doctrine relating to salvation. The pastor here is clear about salvation being a free gift through faith alone in the blood of Christ alone and divides the word between the age of grace today and the program God had and will have for Israel. Hope this might be helpful to you. It has taken me a long time to find a church that is clear about salvation being a free gift through the blood alone and am blessed to know these people; they are very nice and have been a big help to me. Anyway, hope you are well and if you feel you might want to join us sometime it would be great to have you there. The building that we meet in is behind another Church and there is a sign that says old fire station where you pull in to park.
