Why is it that in the brief time I have put in searching through our rich church history I can not find anywhere tongues being described as the charismatics define it today? In every instance where it is even mentioned, and that is in very few places, it is defined as another language not known to the speaker, such as Spanish, French, German, etc.
It was not until 1909 some people in California started acting weird and speaking in strange babbling that the Pentecostal movement got started. Most of the time the wacky far out stuff we see today iWhy is it that in the brief time I have put in searching through our rich church history I can not find anywhere tongues being described as the charismatics define it today? In every instance where it is even mentioned, and that is in very few places, it is defined as another language not known to the speaker, such as Spanish, French, German, etc.
It was not until 1909 some people in California started acting weird and speaking in strange babbling that the Pentecostal movement got started. Most of the time the wacky far out stuff we see today is associated with the charismatic churches or preachers. Why do we not see this gift in our church history for 1800 years and now we have people who will vehemently fight a bitter fight for this belief?
Personally I do not take the definition of tongues describe by some here or by the charismatic churches. Remember speaking in tongues as a strange babbling is something that does happen in satanic worship. And the devil does disguise himself as an angel of light and is deceiving many. Oh but of course all those here on the forums are to spiritual for the devil to deceive so that can't be what I am suggesting here.
There are 5 sources speaking in tongues can come from
1. The Holy Spirit and I don't believe that is happening the way people describe it, every time I hear about it it sounds unbiblical anyway.
2. Demonic. My personal pick for what influences most people.
3. Showmanship or entertainment. This I have seen and heard and it made me laugh so I guess it was entertaining. But yet sad because of the deceived souls falling for it.
4. A lunatic. Some are just plan out of their mind or acting like they are.
5. Ignorance. People want so badly to be a part of something they think they need to do this to be accepted so the play it out.
I know this will start a fire storm and I am not going to argue this point. I have studied Acts 2 and know about the Holy Spirit and things that went on all through the book, I have done my research and am convinced of what the Holy Spirit in my studies has reveled to me on this subject. I want to ask if you are a person who thinks they speak in tongues try not wearing it on your sleeve as a badge here. It is not very pretty to those who think you are wrong or just plan weird.
Now this brings me to what I have always wondered. I hear all the time about essentials and non essentials to salvation. As long as we have the essentials right we can be wrong on the non essentials and still call each other brother. Really? Is that true? Is that biblical? How much can someone be wrong and still be right? Is there not but 1 truth? I mean hey I could be wrong on the tongues issue but that probably means I am wrong about a lot of other important doctrines as well if I am using the same hermeneutic principles else where as I used on my study of tongues. Or vise versa if I am right about tongues and I did use the proper hermeneutical principles to know this, then those that are wrong could be wrong on other important issues as well.
Like I have said before PJ describes a god I can not find in the bible. His constant attacks on the character and nature of the God I see and know from the Bible and against those who follow God are blasphemous at best and heretical at worst. Because of this I can not call PJ brother. He is my neighbor so I am to love him as such but embrace as brother I can not do with the limited information I know about him. His fruit is bad so I have to come to the conclusion he is a bad tree because bad fruit can not come from a good tree.
Ok all you tongue believers have at it! If there is one thorn that can get people bent out of shape is to call their tongue gift false or fake, it will get a fire storm started every time.
s associated with the charismatic churches or preachers. Why do we not see this gift in our church history for 1800 years and now we have people who will vehemently fight a bitter fight for this belief?
Personally I do not take the definition of tongues describe by some here or by the charismatic churches. Remember speaking in tongues as a strange babbling is something that does happen in satanic worship. And the devil does disguise himself as an angel of light and is deceiving many. Oh but of course all those here on the forums are to spiritual for the devil to deceive so that can't be what I am suggesting here.
There are 5 sources speaking in tongues can come from
1. The Holy Spirit and I don't believe that is happening the way people describe it, every time I hear about it it sounds unbiblical anyway.
2. Demonic. My personal pick for what influences most people.
3. Showmanship or entertainment. This I have seen and heard and it made me laugh so I guess it was entertaining. But yet sad because of the deceived souls falling for it.
4. A lunatic. Some are just plan out of their mind or acting like they are.
5. Ignorance. People want so badly to be a part of something they think they need to do this to be accepted so the play it out.
I know this will start a fire storm and I am not going to argue this point here. I have studied Acts 2 and know about the Holy Spirit and things that went on all through the book, I have done my research and am convinced of what the Holy Spirit in my studies has reveled to me on this subject. I want to ask if you are a person who thinks they speak in tongues try not wearing it proudly on your sleeve as a badge. It is not very pretty to those who think you are wrong or just plan weird.
Now this brings me to what I have always wondered. I hear all the time about essentials and non essentials to salvation. As long as we have the essentials right we can be wrong on the non essentials and still call each other brother. Really? Is that true? Is that biblical? How much can someone be wrong and still be right? Is there not but 1 truth? I mean hey I could be wrong on the tongues issue but that probably means I am wrong about a lot of other important doctrines as well if I am using the same hermeneutic principles else where as I used on my study of tongues. Or vise versa if I am right about tounges and I did use the proper hermeneutical principles to know this, then those that are wrong could be wrong on other important issues as well.
Like I have said before PJ describes a god I can not find in the bible. His constant attacks on the character and nature of the God I see and know from the Bible and against those who follow God are blasphemous at best and heretical at worst. Because of this I can not call PJ brother. He is my neighbor so I am to love him as such but embrace as brother I can not do with the limited information I know about him. His fruit is bad so I have to come to the conclusion he is a bad tree because bad fruit can not come from a good tree.
Ok all you tongue believers have at it! If there is one thorn that can get people bent out of shape is to call their tongue gift false or fake, it will get a fire storm started every time.
God never changes, His principles never change, His statutes never change, His character never changes. Why would you change perfection? To change perfection would be to admit that it wasn't perfect. And no one is saying speaking is tongues is evil. It is definitely a gift from God. I do think it is being over-emphasized, misapplied, and misused though. I use my tongue to confess that Jesus is the son of God. Do I have to say it in a unintelligible language? I don't think so. And every person receives different gifts of the spirit, like a body has different members. Some receive prophecy, some discernment, etc. If everyone is speaking in tongues then that would be a strange spiritual body:laugh:. And I have a question. Are you saying that someone that hasn't received the gift of tongues hasn't been born again?
I have always been told that you had to be born again first to get certain gifts. That is why some will lose the gift because they chose to leave the faith. Mark, read my other forum on salvation please it does address some of these issues.
Leon, I do not speak or show off about my gifts.The only reason I said anything was because of the statement saying it was of the Devil- demonic. I had to reply to that. I am not vain or showy about these things. I rarely speak on what gifts I have. Most of the time I use it just in my home.
As the church I attend now does not excericse it in public.I follow my Pastor's direction. Since my family was so gun ho on breaking me and wanting me to be more like a sinner who goes to church I had to dig in. That is another story.
2. Demonic. My personal pick for what influences most people.
3. Showmanship or entertainment. This I have seen and heard and it made me laugh so I guess it was entertaining. But yet sad because of the deceived souls falling for it.
4. A lunatic. Some are just plan out of their mind or acting like they are.
Leon, what happened when david's wife got angry with david for dancing before the Lord in the street.She mocked him and the Lord god punished her for it. Mr.Row is mocking someones form of worship.
Mr Row until come into agreement with the word of God you never will now the God of the word as you continually display, just know you are mocking the lord and the father and the Holy Spirit.
Good, Dennis. I was afraid you would be offended by my post, I am glad you were not. If your church doesn't practice the public display of tongues, that is even better as it is biblical. I know many Charismatics who will read all the way to where the bible says that, skip over it lik it wasn't there and keep on reading. LOL. I guess we are all a little blinded by our beliefs.
When I was in bible college a young man came up to me one evening and he had heard the whole demonic thing. He had just come alive and started speaking in tongues. He asked me what I thought because everyone knew how I felt about it. I asked him how it mad him feel when he was doing it, and he said it drew him closer to God. I pointed to a book locker close by and told him, if walking up and kicking that locker 7 times every day brings you closer to God, then go kick that locker. Anything that brings us closer to our Father can not be bad.
I did not believe in tongues as they taught it and let them know, and still finished head of my class in bible college. I am still in contact with many of the instructors, and think they are wonderful people. That is how it should work with differing beliefs.
1Co 14:28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
1Co 14:17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
To say that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today,is not Biblical.
The reason these gifts may not be in America today.
1.The body has grieved the Holy Spirit .
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
2.Unbelief:
Matt 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The Holy Spirit,is the giver of Gifts according to HIS will.
Row, I understand what I spoke amy have sounded like babble to you, becasue you don't have knowledge into the spiritual matters of God's work, as you would liketo think you do, and you don't understand with a dept of spiritual insight, as to what the Holy Spirit does in a person's life, according to what God decrees, and not what you think or how you think it is suppose to be.
As it is written, a carnal mind cannot understand the spiritual things of God, for they are foolishness to him/her, nor can you know them because they are sprutally discerned.
And one good thing about God's work, is that a carnal minded peron, can never know or understand is how God has always chosen the foolish things to confound the wise.
Therefore, I am not the less bit offended by your remarks or anyone's remarks against my defense of the spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues (languages). And I would that Dennis and whoever else, who may be offended, that you should know that the gifts of God are given ONLY to those who have faith and believe, therefore you should not be offended, if you speak in tongues according to what the Bible has discribed.
Row, You should also know that the people laughed and mocked the apostles on the Day of Pentecost, when they spoke in tongues, ignorant of God's work. It is a known that when you're speaking of spiritual things, that othesr who are called Christians who have not experinced the spiritual things of God, they will mock or call you crazy or try to dicredit the the things of another's spiritual experiences. Only because they have not themselves experienced the total fulfillness of the pwoer of the Holy Spirit of God working in their lives. Nor have they surrended to the control of the Holy Spirit to understand the power of God or the works of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life. Just because you haven;'t experienced the pwoer of God working on the inside of you with the anointed gifts, doesn't mean God isn't working thoise gifst in someone else who has stronger faith and seatdfast believs, than you.
You say what I spoke sounded like babbling to you, well I suppose it would, because those philosophers on Mar Hill in Acts chapter 17, also throught what Paul spoke to them about the Lord Jesus Christ was nothing but babble, and they so called Paul a babbler, because they did not understand the spiritual things Paul spoke to them.
I know you said you agreed with some of the things I stated, but you must also understand that UNTIL you know what it is that you DON"T understand and you have not experienced what others say they have experienced, you should not allow your doubt to say that what they speak is or isn't true, just becasue you doubt or don't understand.
If you haven't had the experience, nor do you understand the experience, how can you speak about something you know nothing about with your doubt.
As I said, a lot of the speaking that is going on in many of these church is babbling, but then again, because of their faith and belief that they are spekaing in togues given by the Hoyl Spirit of God, God can also use the babbling for His purposes to do His will.
Sso we must be very carful how we denounce what others do, and we must know the difference when it is done for God's glory and not our's, and know whether it be of God or the emotions of the moment.
Just my two cent... I'lll send you a bill for the remaining balance:rocknroll::ROFL:
