Thread: Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 08:53 AM
Whilst there is more to Calvinism than five points, these are the major points on which Calvinism rests. They are called the T-U-L-I-P. Point 1, Total Depravity; Point 2, Unconditional Election; Point 3, Limited Attonement; Point 4, Irresistable Grace; and Point 5, Perseverence of the Saints.
Point 1, Total Depravity. Simply put, this doctrine says that all mankind, since the fall, has been totally depraved. That man, both individually and generally, is totally debased and corrupt, that he is unable to think or do anything good outside of God's Providence.
Now what is my problem with this? It's the word, "total." Certainly the Bible teaches the depravity of man, but I don't see the total aspect of it. You see the scripture is generalized when it speaks of the wickedness of man. For example, Genesis 6.5 says, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." That sounds kinda bad. But it is still a general statement regarding the moral condition of mankind. Obviously, it wasn't individual. Because in verse 8 we are told that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Was Noah totally depraved? Nowhere does the text indicate that. Of course the Calvinist would say that God gave grace to Noah. But that is unsupported by the text as well. The idea that Noah obeyed God suggests there was some good in him. Or maybe Noah wasn't included in God's assessment in verse 5. And, if Noah wasn't included in verse 5, then that shows the generallity of the statement. No matter how you try to explain it, Noah was different.
We can look at mankind today, with all the murders, the wars, the rapes, the threats from one government to another suggesting that annhilation is right around the corner, and conclude that man is depraved, eventhough there are some righteous people on the earth, of which can be said God found grace in His eyes.
I once knew an atheist, and he was till he died. Yet, this man was the one of the most giving man I ever knew. I use to visit his used bookstore, and one day I told him I was thirsty, and asked if I could have a glass of water. Without hesitation, he brought me a glass of water. I remember, one time someone was looking at a book, and it was marked $.50. They only had a quarter. He sold them that book for a quarter. He use to donate books to various charities when they had book drives, which they in turn sold with the proceeds going to that charity. Yet, by Calvinistic definition, he was totally depraved. Of course, they would probably say that eventhough he was totally depraved, he filled some purpose in God's Providence.
The problem I have with the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is that it can neither be proved or disproved. Certainly, in general the scriptures do teach the depravity of man, but not individually. But then again, there is God's providence. I know there was a time I was financially in very bad shape. A man took pity on me and helped me. Later, he was charge with some kind of financial crime, whether embezzelment, or something like that. He had two businesses, and he stole money from one business to keep the other going. He didn't pay taxes, nor social security for any of his employees. He took the money off their checks, but somehow, it never got to the IRS. Later, of course, the IRS came after the employees for their money as we are responsible to pay our taxes, even though there is no law that says so.
Oh yes, I could go on and point out indications that man is depraved, but that even a depraved man can do something good.
Decide for yourself. Is man totally depraved? I personally don't think so.
Point 2, Unconditional Election. Several years ago, I did a study on the words elect, chose, chosen, as they pertain to this doctrine. What I found is that those words pertain to Christ, to the apostles, and to the church. Never to anyone individually, except Christ.
The fact is we are chosen in Christ, and we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 states, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." This verse makes it plain, those whom are chosen are chosen in Him, in Christ. Outside of Christ, no one is chosen. Therefore, we must then understand how someone is chosen in Christ, and that is where the conditions come in. Salvation is the process by which we are chosen in Christ.
Condition #1, believing. John 3.16, a familiar passage to most. But let's go a bit further and include verses 17 and 18. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through might be saved. He that believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name in the only begotten Son of God." There can be no doubt that according to these verses, believing is very definitely a condition for salvation. And you cannot be elect without being saved, and being in Christ.
Condition #2, repentance. Luke 13.3 & 5 say the same thing. "I tell you no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Wel that's pretty well straight forward. No repentance, no salvation, you will perish.
Condition #3, confession. Romans 10:9 states. "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart brings salvation. That's simple enough.
Some folks add water baptism as a condition of salvation. One thing for certain, salvation is not unconditional. And since salvation is of itself a condition of election, it's safe to say election is not unconditional.
Point 3, Limited Attonement. This is my favorite. Why? Because, it's the easiest to refute. Let me tell you, the five points are like dominoes. When one falls, they all do.
Keep in mind, these five points of Calvinism are all connected to their doctrine of particular election, and their doctrine of particular redemption. Without these five points, those two doctrines are gone. It's like, you tell a big lie. Then you have to create a bunch of little lies to support the big lie. And in this point of limited atomement, the lie is exposed.
Limited atonement is just that. Before the foundation of the world God the Father predetermined to send Christ in to the world at just the right time to become a sacrifice for the sins of a select few, called the elect.
Now the truth. In John 12.32, Jesus said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL to Myself." Notice the word "ALL." This is my own translation. In the KJV, they add the word men in italics. If you have read the preface of the KJV, you know that words in italics are added words to clarify the text. Take the word out, and you have what the original states. You have the same in the NKJV. Without the added words, you might ask all what. But with the added words, you don't need to. In answer to the question, "All what?" Without the extra word we simply have to look at the text. What was Jesus talking about? So let's look at the text. John 12. 30-32. "Jesus answered and said, 'This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all world to Myself.'" You can see, I added the word world in italics. In the the text, Jesus is talking about the judgement of the world (kosmos). Then he refers to the manner in which He would die. If you're going to add a word, it should be a word in keeping with the text. So the message of Jesus here is, "If I be crucified, I will draw all the world to Myself." That sure doesn't sound like limited atonement to me. I realize there are some Calvinistic Greek scholars that would disagree with this definition. But the Greek word, pantos does not support the idea of any kind of limitation. According to the Greek books that I have, the word means, wholly, entirety, every.
Then there is I John 2.2, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." Again, the Greek word, holos, translated "whole" shows absolutlely no limitation. I Timothy 4.3-6 teaches that God "desires all men to be saved," and that Jesus "gave Himself a ransom for all." That doesn't sound like only a select few. I believe it is safe to say that in no way does scripture teach limited atonement.
Point 4, Irresistable Grace. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, with irresistable grace, everyone should be saved, since it is impossible to resist the grace of God. But, Galatians 5.4 states, "You have become eastranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Fallen from irresistable grace! How can that be? Those trying to be justified by the law are also estranged from Christ. Doesn't sound like irresistable grace to me. And, that leads to the next point.
Point 5, Perseverance of the Saints. This suggests that all saints, through God's unconditional love and irresistable grace, that all saints will be equipped to always persevere. If so, then why does scripture warn about an apostasy? You can't fall from something unless you are in it. In II Thessalonians 2, Paul wrote about the coming of the Lord, and wrote, "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..." Then there is the pronouncment by Paul that those who try to be justified by the Law, "you have fallen from grace." Saints falling from grace. This shows two things. God's grace is not irresistable even among the saints, and therefore, having fallen from grace, they are not able to pesevere.
There you have it. A discussion on the five points which are a part of a system of theology known as Calvinism.
PREDESTINATION
Certainly scripture teaches predestination. Where Calvinism and scripture part ways is what God's predestination is based on. Calvinism teaches that God loved his elect before the foundation of the world, and saved only those few. But that is not what scripture teaches.
For the truth we go to Romans 8.29 & 30, which states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined. these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Romans 8.29 plainly teaches that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge. What does this word, "foreknew," mean? It is translated from the Greek, proginosko, which means, according to Vine, "to know before." It does not mean, "to love before," as Calvinists teach. If it did, the word would have to be, proagape, but as you can see, it's not.
Vine explains, "God's foreknowledge involves His electing grace, but does not preclude human will. He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation."
Ephesians 1.5 & 11 further teaches that He "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." "And it is in Christ, "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
So the doctrine of predestination properly is; according to the foreknowledge of God we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, Jesus. Through predestination in Christ, we are called, we are justified, we are glorified, we are adopted as sons by Jesus Christ, through whom we obtain an inheritance, according to the pupose, good pleasure, and counsel of God's will.
A part of God's omniscience is His foreknowledge. God foreknows all things. Calvinism teaches that God foreknows all things because He has preplanned all things. However, I see no support for this in scripture.
If I recall, the Greek word translated "believe" in those verses you gave is "pistuo," or "pistis." They are verbs, words of action. Are you saying that believing is an act of man's will? If you are, I agree. As it is written, "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Man hears the Word, and he makes a choice to either believe or not believe.
You are wasting your words on PJ, he has no ears to hear. He has been blinded as the bible says. He can only see what he wants to see. Maybe Jesus will open his yes some day.
The bible gives us hundreds of examples of God forcing people to do things they didn't want to do, to say otherwise is proof of either ignorance or being controlled by Satan.
God forces people to do stuff all the time. What about when it rains and someone is forced to change their plans? Is God in control of the weather? I think a lot of people were forced to do things they did not want to do after a hurricane, or tornado, or flood or any other God control disaster! That includes wars! Is God not in control of governments and what laws are passed and what countries do to each other? Do you think we could attack someone without God being behind it? What about death? Who is it that gives life and takes it away? God? Who gives their life up without it being taken from them forcefully? Death is usually not easy to go through because of the fight for life. What about where some one was born or who they have for parents? Did you get to chose your parents or country, state or the city you were born in? Or just being born period! Who chose to be born into life? No one! God forced life on to each one of us. What about race and gender? Who got to choose if they are this race or that race and weather they were male or female, short or tall? I think it was God who forced/chose this for everyone. So why would it be so far fetched that God has the only role in who He chooses/forces to bring into His everlasting kingdom? It is described as being born again! How much you played a part in your first birth is probably how much you play in your second birth. Do you really think a sovereign God who is in control of everything would leave that kind of decision to us?!!!
No one who is chosen turns God's gift down, I mean really who could when God revels the truth to them. When His offer is extended to the person He has "chosen" they will not turn it down. He has given them the ability to see, think, reason, to walk and have other skills, to be able to learn, to love and experience emotions, and to communicate, why would it be strange or different that He also gives the ability to recognize the truth and respond to that truth? Why did some that heard Jesus' teachings and saw His miracles not believe? Did one make the right choice and the person next to him the wrong choice? Does the one get to look at the other and boast that he made the right choice? Why did Jesus say to the twelve that He had chosen them? And when Peter claimed Jesus was the Christ the son of the living God, Jesus told him that his knowledge of this had come from no man but from the Father. The teaching in the Bible is clear. Does man have a free will? Absolutely! But if God did not intervene in that free will none of us would chose God.
God gives mercy to whom He wills! I have no problem with that, or God doing the choosing, He knows what is best anyway!
This whole thing hinges on two words. Predestination, and elect. As I pointed out in the OP, predestination is based on God's foreknowledge. That is plain in Romans 9.
As far as election is concerned, there is no Scripture that teaches the individual election, except in the case of Christ. All others are elect in Christ.
Now, Mr. Row. You undoubtedly will disagree with this, so I ask you, are you one of the elect? If so, how do you know?
Etymology: Middle French imposer, from Latin imponere, literally, to put upon (perfect indicative imposui), from in- + ponere to put � more at position
Date: 1581
transitive verb 1 a : to establish or apply by authority b : to establish or bring about as if by force
2 a : place, set b : to arrange (as pages) in the proper order for printing
3 : pass off
4 : to force into the company or on the attention of another intransitive verb : to take unwarranted advantage of something
� im�pos�er noun
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
According to this Scripture I believe the Lord God,maker of Heaven and Earth:Creator of all that I can see and cannot see is Sovereign.
I believe it was His will to save me from before the foundations of creation.
It was not my will,nor was it even in my heart or mind to be saved.
Yeshua is the lamb slain before the foundations of creation.
I had no idea about Salvation,the Gospel,Grace,Mercy,Love,Forgiveness.
I had no idea about Eternal life,I was completely ignorant about most of if not all of the Life of Yeshua.
I was a drunk at age 23 living on the streets,no job,no desire to work.
Given the clothes on my back,Hating everyone,and anyone.
The only thing i wanted was to drink,smoke cigarettes,and stay out of prison.
I had desires of taking peoples lives,and fell asleep dreaming about doing such things.
My heart and mind were as hard as granite,i wanted nothing to do with anyone,people were only good for what
i could get from them.
I was a convict,and had no hope of every being changed,except for getting worse..
I believe the Lord God ,the Sovereign over all of His creation,imposed His will upon me,and saved me.
He brought me to Yeshua,by his soveriegn Grace and Mercy.
I did not want to be anything but a drunk,yet ABBA had other plans for me,namely the CROSS.
I dropped out of school at 16 1/2;I have not set foot in any class room since that time;
Yet the Churches in New Jersey believe ,the Lord has called and gifted me as an Evangelist,Teacher and Prophet(I don't want the heavy Prophet rap).
I no more wanted to be saved then Jonah wanted the Ninehvites saved.
The Lord is able to do what He wants to do,when He wants to,and How He wants to do anything that will please Him and
Glorify His name.
Two people the Lord imposed His will upon;Jonah and Paul.
Yeshua even told Paul that He would suffer for the sake of Yeshua;
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake
We belittle the Lord and lift up man,when we say the Lord cannot do this or that with us..
Every time YHWH brought Isreal into captivity,did he not first warn them through the prophets,and did
He not keep his word.
Read all of Exodus,and tell me the Lord does not impose His will upon us or anyone else.
I hope everyone has a Blessed day.
Agape' and Charis:
George
ps.Before the Lord God soveriegnly saved me.
I have never heard the Gospel,not one person had ever shared the Gospel with me that i know of.
I do not remember reading the Word except the 2-3 times when I was stone cold plastered,and tried to
Once again....parable of the sower. It'd be cool if someone could explain how it fits in their beliefs, because to me it seems that Jesus is saying that people can chose to harden their hearts to the truth and continue in unbelief, and that people can receive grace to live a renewed life and then fall away. I believe we have the free moral will to choose to believe when we hear the word of truth. Belief/faith is not a "work" that earns us salvation. It's just an acceptance of truth, and when we hear the truth and believe in it, then God does all the work for us. The twist is, we are always receiving new light/truth from God to grow in our walk. If at any point we harden our hearts or stop up our ears to the truth that God reveals to us, then we fall into unbelief, we stop growing, and our "plant" dies. We deny Christ, and He denies us.
Those that do not believe the word of God are the best witnesses to those that believe of its truth's, you do not find any time in the bible where The lord forced himself on anyone.
