In order to express His nature of holiness, truth, and justice, God MUT punish us for our sins. Sin personally offends God, and no one should be surprised or think that they will not be punished by God for their sins. Nor should anyone think or be surprised that SIN makes God very angry.
To deny that God get angry is to reject the necessity of Christ's death on the cross, and His death as being in vian to save us from our sins.
Based on Romans Chapter 1,
(1) What are some of the way God expresses His anger(wrath) toward sin?
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Now let me rewrite this to fit Ellas translation=ET
ET-Much more then,being now justified by repentance,we shall be saved from wrath by repenting.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
ET-Even when we were dead in sins,hath He quickened us together with christ(by repentance ye are saved)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
ET-For by repentance are ye saved, through repentance,and that not of yourselves it is the gift of Repentance.
Not of works/repentance,lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship created in christ Jesus unto good works,which God hath before ordained that we
should walk in them.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
ET-If we/I repent of our/my sins,He is faithful and just to forgive us/me our sins,and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
ET-Father, forgive them,for they have repented.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
ET-And almost all things are by the law purged with repentance,and without repentance is no remission.
If all of this depends on me repenting,then why must I trust Yeshua for Salvation.
I trust Yeshua as my Goel;That is my substitutionary sacrifice for my sin debt....
I trust Yeshua to justify me.
I trust Yeshua to be Righteous,Holy,and Sanctified on my behalf,and He Imputes to me His Righteousness,His Holiness, and His Sanctification.
I trust Him to be completely Faithful and Obedient,on my behalf.
I am not trusting in my righteousness, but his Righteousness.
I am not trusing in my holiness,but His Holiness.
I am not trusting in my sanctification,but rather in His Sanctification.
I am not trusting in my faithfulness,but rather in His faithfulness.
I am not trusting in my repentance to satisfy the wrath of GOD:
Rather I am trusting in Yeshuas Life,Death,Burial and Resurrection,as the only means of satifying the righteousness of the law,and the wrath of GOD.
I trust that I have been forgiven all my sins,Past,Present and Future,by his shed blood.
I trust Him to save me,not because I am Obedient,not because I have repented,not because I have confessed my sins:I trust that He will save me because, He said that he would save me by trusting Him.
Either Salvation is the result of my repenting and God gives me Eternal life because I repented:
Or Eternal Life is a Free Gift of Gods Grace, which He has freely given to me as I trust Yeshua to save me, with the faith He has given me to trust Him with,John 17:3
I either repent to be saved which is works:
Or I repent because I have been saved,thus the affects of Grace upon my life.
If one is dead to the Lord because of sin,How then can a dead man repent.
The Lord first must give life and faith to trust Yeshua,and
I must not resist the Holy Spirits work.
I too have the Spirit of the living God;
Chesed and Shalom:
George
ps.Yes Ella my sins are covered,not only covered but removed as far as the East is from the West,
and cast into the sea of Gods forgetfulness to be remembered no more.
Psa 103:1 A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Psa 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
Psa 103:4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
Psa 103:5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
Psa 103:6 The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.
Psa 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
Psa 103:9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Yes I believe repentance is every day,and every moment,Repentance follows faith.
This is the statement you mad that made me think you were promoting an all roads lead to heaven philosophy.
There are plenty of other theories, and they aren't all mutually exclusive. Why emphasis the substitionary theory over, for example, the Christus Victor theory?
Have you ever heard Joseph Prince preach? He teaches radical grace, which is what you are talking about here.
While there is no doubt what you say is true, you should be careful preaching it because of those who are not quite there yet. It gives them the idea they can do whatever they want and be saved. You and I know that if you are truly saved you won't live like that, but it could cause serious problems in a mixed congregation.
Look at the context in which I made that statement. I was talking about theories of atonement:
"Only if we accept a unilateral theory of atonement: i.e., the substitionary theory. There are plenty of other theories, and they aren't all mutually exclusive. Why emphasis the substitionary theory over, for example, the Christus Victor theory?"
Within the Christian tradition, there are multiple theories concerning the atonement: Christus Victor, Substitutionary, Moral Influence, Illumination, etc. These trajectories all have scriptural support, and are not all mutually exclusive.
Is it not so amazing, that we must have a basket of theories to believe.
Mr trucker as far as what you and leon said, there is a huge problem with saying what the holy spirit showed you, it does not agree with the word of God.
Faith is not works, and you will never have received the Grace of god without mixing faith with the word of God.
Is the word of God truth, or is the word of man the truth, We seem to have an epidemic in the world today, truth is not truth, or truth is what I say it is, this same epidemic has crept into the church, many say truth is what they say it is, not what the word of God declares about it self.
For instance starting with this scripture, a fact revealed to whosoever reads and believes the word of God.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
This scripture tell us, that who believes the word of God is sanctified through the truth and that the word of God is truth.
This word translated truth means without false hood, This scriptures gives us a fact from the word of God and that is the word is truth, or without falsehood.
We also find this principle in the old and new testament, that whosoever believes the word of God and responds accordingly will be blessed.
This word translated believe is used in excess of two hundred times in the new testament, and in each occasion it means to act as if it is true.
We have a few that like to ridicule, to mock, slander, insult, because you accept these truths about the word of God.
For instance these scriptures they will tell you do not mean what they say, and will cover that later.
Who can receive salvation and come into the family of God, according to God's word.
Jo 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
In this scriptural context you will see the term whosoever believes three times, saying the same thing.
This same phrase is repeated thruout the new testament and is repeated multiple times in the Gospel of John
That if whosoever is to believe on the lord Jesus Christ, that person will be saved.
We will show you where the Apostle Paul taught the same teaching in Romans ch 10
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 � For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Let's go one more time and see what the word says about who can come:
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ�s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 � We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
The church is Given the ministry of reconcilation, telling the world to come unto God for your trespasses are not being held against you, be reconciled to God today.
Let us bring even more clarity to this truth for all of mankind,
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
This scripture clearly tells us that all men have been justified before God by Jesus .
In the new and old testament we are told to establish a thing in the mouth of two or three witnesses, or scriptures.
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Now you will have those that say, that this cannot be because not all are drawn to God, not all are chosen, not all are of the elect. all are biblical terms and they have there place.
Notice one more scripture here: Jo 1232 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jesus declared to us several times as in this passage if we lift up him (the word) he would draw all men.
The bible tells us we are to believe the word of God and to go one step further is there is ever any doubt, it only a choice to rely on the Holy Spirit, for he will always confirm to us.
Guard your heart, examine the scriptures for your self.
I am impressed. Shocked.:peace: For the first time you,PJ called no one who disagreed with you a liar. You wrote a very good arguement.Even though I disagree with it. Not all will be saved.Trucker George is close to what I agree with.
I will rely on his scriptures.Thanks a lot for your insight.
I understand that this is a matter about the wrath of God,
Yet I would like to address a few things by PJ,which; might clear up some misunderstanding that he, and others
may have with the Scriptures he uses on a daily basis.
John3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The word believe or believeth is definitely used here,for those who believe there is no condemnation.
The condemnation the Lord says here is that the unbelievers will perish.
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Romans 8"1 says: There is, then, now no condemnation to
those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
Those in Christ are not condemned,those outside of Christ are like those that were not in the ark with Noah:
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Now concerning the term "All Men"
This term in the Scriptures refers to those from every Nation,tongue,tribe and kindred.
This is found in Revelation 5:9,and Rev.7:9
Yeshua told the Jewish men to make disciples of "ALL NATIONS"
All men does not mean each man.
Every man/all men is collective,each man is more personal.
John 3:16-17 is collective.
John 3:18 is personal.
Sanctify and sanctification.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
PJ:I Love you;I would encourage you to look at the whole counsel of God on any subject,not just a few choice Scriptures.
Either we have our subject,and then collect the verses of Scripture that support our beliefs,or what we want
to be teaching about.
Or we read and study the Word of God and ask the Lord"ABBA,what are you saying to me here within what
I have been reading".
And then we take what He shows us ,and ask for Grace to live that out,and for Grace to make that known.
