Thread: Why are you thankful for the Doctrines of Grace?
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Why are you thankful for the Doctrines of Grace?
Posted : 25 Apr, 2010 01:29 PM
For those Christians who believe that God is sovereign over everything in the universe, INCLUDING our salvation, I was wondering if you could post some comments and say why you are thankful for God saving you, and what the Doctrines of Grace,
(the five points nicknamed Calvinism) mean to you.
For those of you modern American Christians who believe that salvation is synergistic, meaning it takes God and your decision, this is a quote about Christians who believe in monergistic salvation, in other words God alone saves His people.
Here is an anonymous quote to start you off on:
"Therefore, in all synergistic theologies, God's love for people is always conditional. In other words, in synergism, a condition must be met by persons for God's love to kick in or take effect, so to speak. Particular Redemption Vs. Potential Redemption are, therefore, perhaps the most succinct ways to describe the realities of the theologies ... See Moreheld. Particular redemption is like a parents love for his children. When he sees his child run into the street, he does not merely call to him hoping for a response. He runs out into the street, rather, to make certain his child does not get run over. True love gets the job done. "
Okay Mark, I wanted this thread to be for Christians who believed in the Doctrines of Grace to say why they are thankful for them, but it seems the Arminians are here to attack so here goes:
Lets say for the moment Mark, that the Fall, KILLED all mankind spiritually. That everybody who is ever born is born with a will ENSLAVED to sin, and that God, in His mercy decided before the earth was made to save about a billion people by making them come alive and giving them a new nature. That God could have saved everyone, or no one, but decided to save some instead.
AND.....Mark. God came to YOU and told YOU it was YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to TELL ALL CHRISTIANS that this was what He has decided to do.
Now, Mark I want YOU to come up with a BETTER, and MORE CLEAR example than Paul did in Romans 9. You see, Paul used the example of twins in their mothers womb, and says that BEFORE THEY EVEN DID ANYTHING, that God loved one of them and hated the other. Paul then goes on to explain that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and that the "Potter has a right to do what he wants with the clay".
So, Mark you just said it was not a very good example of predestination, so PLEASE, give us a BETTER example than Paul did in Romans 9.
I was a student in both Bible College and Seminary. I find most of Church History embarrassing to the name of Jesus Christ and the primary reason I do not refer to myself as a Christian.
James replies:
Wow! So the early Christians who suffered so much were an embarrassment to you? What about those who founded the first orphanages? You know, I have a different question for you. In our culture we have a religion called leftism, or liberalism, and I have found many who SAY they are Christian, but when you examine what they believe, their true religion is liberalism and at best they are idolatrous because they are mixing two different religions, without even admitting that liberalism is a religion. Also, most that do this, actually put their religion of liberalism first, and the Bible takes a back seat to their liberalism.
I am wondering since you say that "most of church history" is embarrassing to you, that you don't really care for Christians at all?
Thunder continues:
As for Calvin, he did not have to be the one to do the killing but he was responsible for Servetus� death from everything I have found.
James replies:
You are ignoring the definition of the word "Murder". ( Ignoring the meaning of words IS a liberal thing.) Christians are forbidden to murder and Calvin never murdered anyone.
He had no authority to put anyone to death, because he was merely a pastor. Calvin did have the authority to excommunicate someone from church, but that is all.
Servetus was a bonehead. He was already on the run from the Catholics who sentenced him to death for publicly teaching lies about the nature of God (Modalism). If you are embarrassed about the death penalty in those days for the public teaching of heresy, then I think you are imposing your Modern American ideas on people 500 years ago, and that is unreasonable.
Believe me, if you could go there and tell them what you think about this, THEY would debate you and think badly of YOUR IDEAS on this subject.
Thunder continues:
As far as I'm concerned that makes him a killer or murderer, however you like to put it.
James replies:
Either way, you are wrong in your belief, and also wrong in changing the definitions of words to suit your whims.
Words have meanings, and you should use them accordingly.
Thunder continues:
As for other facts of history involving the leaders and members of the Church being killers, I have pointed out before that it was Christians who tortured and killed in the Crusades and the Inquisition. There have been apologies for both but apologies don't change history.
James replies:
If you don't know that the Crusades were defensive wars because of Muslim aggression, then I question your "Knowledge" of the crusades! Christians believed the entire Holy land was going to be destroyed forever by the Muslims! I don't think you know much, about this, and I am now wondering if you are a pacifist, and my gut instinct is that you are a believer in the religion of liberalism. If I am wrong please correct me, but you are doing all the things they do.
Well...I do believe God is sovereign...I thought that was the only requirement to post here?
I believe in predestination, I just disagree with you on the details. I believe God knows who will be saved...obviously...because He knows the future. I'm not disagreeing with you over the fact that God knows what we do before we do it...or that God directs our path. I just don't believe God forces things on us. I believe we have a choice AFTER God makes the first step and "speaks the truth" and plants the seed/convicts us through one of His many channels of influence(Preaching, His word, His law, His sacrifice, the witness of His followers, etc.), even though He knows what we will choose. I just think there's too much in the bible that says God tries to convict everyone, He scatters His seed everywhere. He wants us to "hear" and "believe". He says His will is that none should perish...and I can see the point that God knows who will choose not to serve Him, but I don't think you know...or anyone else...and there are some, maybe not you...but some in in your belief system, that seem to claim they do know. I believe only God knows. You also say that a person that has accepted Christ cannot fall, and I see your point in that a person that God knows is truly saved will not fall....but you also claim that you are such a person. I believe only God knows, we can only hope. I believe we all have a choice. Even God. He can choose who to influence. We can choose who to listen to. The bible says God "hardens" peoples hearts...but only through their own selfishly acquired sinful pride. God says He calls to everyone, but only a few answer. God's word doesn't say He forces people to become "hardened", and His word doesn't say He forces people to come to Jesus. I just believe God works through the free will He sovereignly created us with....otherwise this whole process is worthless, and it makes God into a monster. Why didn't He save Lucifer? God made men a little lower than angels, right? Aren't they just as valuable if not more? Why not die for them, gracefully "force" them into salvation, and skip this whole bit with humans? If being sinful makes us lose our will, and puts our will under the direct control of God? Because God wanted to make them cause billions of people to sin and eventually kill them all to give Him more glory as a "God of mercy and love and justice"?? No. I don't believe that, and I would not serve a god like that. I'm very glad God isn't like that.
And I know about the "lack of verses". I'll post them if you want, but you can see I referenced them quite a bit...I just don't remember the chapter/verse. I know they're in there and I will post them if you insist. I have other troubling stuff to worry about at the moment. I'm still working on that list though, Manofgod...got through genesis and exodus...I might start posting it by book instead of doing the whole thing at once...might crash the website, lol...
"If you don't know that the Crusades were defensive wars because of Muslim aggression, then I question your "Knowledge" of the crusades! Christians believed the entire Holy land was going to be destroyed forever by the Muslims! I don't think you know much, about this, and I am now wondering if you are a pacifist, and my gut instinct is that you are a believer in the religion of liberalism. If I am wrong please correct me, but you are doing all the things they do."
Defensive wars? Did they miss the part in the bible that says "my kingdom is not of this world"? Who cares about the "holy land" then? I think the crusades were a mistake. Not very Christ-like. Killing souls over worthless dirt? Nice job, crusaders! Shows how far away from the gospel people can get.
Well...I do believe God is sovereign...I thought that was the only requirement to post here?
James replies:
well, yes, but then you refute what you just said below!
The doctrines of Grace?calvinism/ the five points are:
1 Fallen mankind is totally unable to come to God and has a will enslaved to sin.
2God chose people before the world was made, unconditionally.
(NOT because he saw they would repent!)
3 Jesus died for the elect only, and his death LITERALLY paid for their sins.
4 God's grace cannot be resisted.
5 God CAUSES His chosen people to persevere to the end.
Mark continues:
I believe in predestination, I just disagree with you on the details. I believe God knows who will be saved...obviously...because He knows the future. I'm not disagreeing with you over the fact that God knows what we do before we do it...or that God directs our path. I just don't believe God forces things on us.
James replies:
Mark you have two choices.
1. the one you clearly are taking at the moment which is:
"Well, God just looked into the future and saw YOU would have faith, so that is why he "chose" you.
That is arminian.
2 God, for reasons we don't know why, but NOT because of anything you would do, (read Romans 9) CHOSE people FOR HIS OWN REASONS.
That is point 2 of the Doctrines of Grace.
And mark, you said you don't believe God forces things on us.
God forced you to be a man, forced you to live on Earth, forced you to have your eye color, your personality, etc, etc.
But here is the point on this. God takes a TOTALLY spiritually DEAD person and MAKES them COME ALIVE, and gives them a new nature. I have said this to you before, and I will say it again.
When God gives a person a NEW nature, they NATURALLY have NEW DESIRES. So no one is Forced against their will, they just have a NEW WILL.
Scriptures for this provided upon request.
Mark continues:
I believe we have a choice AFTER God makes the first step and "speaks the truth" and plants the seed/convicts us through one of His many channels of influence(Preaching, His word, His law, His sacrifice, the witness of His followers, etc.), even though He knows what we will choose. I just think there's too much in the bible that says God tries to convict everyone, He scatters His seed everywhere. He wants us to "hear" and "believe". He says His will is that none should perish..
James replies:
None of HIS chosen people should perish....
Mark continues:
.and I can see the point that God knows who will choose not to serve Him, but I don't think you know...or anyone else...and there are some, maybe not you...but some in in your belief system, that seem to claim they do know.
James replies:
No one can look at any other non Christian and say:
"that person will never accept Christ".
God saves who He will save, and we never know who that is.
We have guy in my little church, who got saved at 67 years old!
God sometimes saves the most wicked sinners, and sometimes even famous people.
We never know who, and that is why we are told to preach the gospel to the whole world.
Mark continues:
I believe only God knows. You also say that a person that has accepted Christ cannot fall, and I see your point in that a person that God knows is truly saved will not fall....but you also claim that you are such a person.
James replies:
well, if I say I am a Christian, because I have repented and I am trusting in Christ ALONE, and I have an inward desire to live a holy life, AND, I believe that the Bible teaches that a true Christian will persevere to the end, then yes, you got me.
mark continues:
I believe only God knows, we can only hope.
James replies:
I would disagree on that point mark.
And remember I posted on the SDA church saying that you were not really forgiven until judgement day.
That is NOT what protestant Christians believe.
In Romans 5:1 after teaching at length on HOW a person is made right with God, Paul says:
"Therefore having been justified by faith"
That is past tense Mark. God WANTS you to KNOW that you ARE saved, and that YOU Do belong to Him.
You are saying that no Christian can ever be assured that they are saved, and that is a sad way for a Christian to go through life!
Mark continues:
I believe we all have a choice. Even God. He can choose who to influence. We can choose who to listen to.
James replies:
Yeah, that is the opposite of what the bible says.
Jesus did not have a choice as to WHO would be saved, but had to die, like he said in John6 and 10, "for those that the Father has given me".
God cannot lie! He cannot go against His own nature.
We all have a will, but to act like fallen mankind has a perfectly free will, is just going too far.
Mark continues:
The bible says God "hardens" peoples hearts...but only through their own selfishly acquired sinful pride.
James replies:
So much for free will there huh!? What about Saul?
God blinded Him and knocked him to the ground, and made him unable to speak! That is NOT Saul reasoning with himself and making a decision is it?
You can preach the gospel to a hundred people, and the ONLY ones who will repent and trust in Jesus are the ones that the Holy Spirit enters them, and MAKES them a new creature.
Mark continues:
God says He calls to everyone, but only a few answer.
James replies:
Mark, quote that verse correctly.
"many are called but few are CHOSEN".
Mark continues:
God's word doesn't say He forces people to become "hardened", and His word doesn't say He forces people to come to Jesus.
James replies:
God takes a totally dead person and makes them come alive.
If you are physically dead, and Jesus made you physically come back to life, do you think that God would be FORCING you to eat? Or....would the FACT that you are alive mean that you would NATURALLY become hungry and WANT to eat?
It is the SAME THING with a person who has been born again!
Jesus told Nicodemus that he could not even SEE the kingdom of God UNTIL he HAD been born again!
mark continues:
I just believe God works through the free will He sovereignly created us with...
James replies:
He DID THAT with Adam and EVE! Now, because of the Fall, ALL mankind is born with a will enslaved to sin.
See if you can find any verses that say that we have ability to come to Jesus on our own.
See if you can find this free will you talk about in the Bible.
I have plenty of verses that show that there is NO free will, and NO ability to come to Jesus, without first being born again.
I know free will SOUNDS right to you, but it is NOT in the Bible.
mark continues:
.otherwise this whole process is worthless, and it makes God into a monster. Why didn't He save Lucifer? God made men a little lower than angels, right? Aren't they just as valuable if not more? Why not die for them, gracefully "force" them into salvation, and skip this whole bit with humans? If being sinful makes us lose our will, and puts our will under the direct control of God? Because God wanted to make them cause billions of people to sin and eventually kill them all to give Him more glory as a "God of mercy and love and justice"?? No. I don't believe that, and I would not serve a god like that. I'm very glad God isn't like that.
James replies:
You are saying that If God does not save everyone, then God is wrong? You are demanding that God save everyone, that God is somehow obligated to do this?
God has chosen to save perhaps a BILLION people!!
That is MERCY and BLESSINGS beyond which you and I can even imagine right now!!!!!!!!!!!
Please read John 6 and 10, and then
Romans 9.
Some people get incredible mercy, many get perfect justice, and NO ONE gets injustice.
I'm sorry for not answering your question, James. I thought it was only directed to Calvinists, so I didn't answer. I didn't want to offend you. I guess by not answering, though, I have done so anyways, so I am sorry. I can not tell you why I am thankful for the "doctrines of grace", simply because I don't think they are the REAL doctrines of grace (The Bible). They are simply five points that define Calvinism. I CAN, however, tell you shy I am thankful for God's grace. I am thankful because it shows God's love for everyone. He created us all, we messed up, He came to us in the form of a man and died to forgive us... all because He loves us.
Because I know it's coming, I'm going to go ahead and explain for the first time why I don't agree with the "5 points of Calvinism", or whatever they are called.
1. Fallen mankind is totally unable to come to God and has a will enslaved to sin.----- I agree that we are unable to come to God by ourselves. God is Holy. Therefore, we would defile Him if we were with Him, because we aren't Holy.
2. God chose people before the world was made, unconditionally. (NOT because he saw they would repent!)----- I agree that God chose people before the world was made, and that His love is unconditional. He chose EVERYONE.
3. Jesus died for the elect only, and his death LITERALLY paid for their sins.----- I agree that Jesus died for the elect, but you have to understand that EVERYONE has been offered this position of forgiveness. Those that accept His forgiveness are then dubbed the term, His "elect".
4. God's grace cannot be resisted.----- Galatians 5:4... they fell from grace... they had it... then they fell from it...
5. God CAUSES His chosen people to persevere to the end.----- I agree to some extent. If you continually ask God to guide you in your walk with Him, dying to yourself and submitting yourself to Him, then yes... He helps you persevere. He doesn't CAUSE everyone to, though. ---> Galatians 5:1. If Christ has set us free, and we are no longer under a yoke of slavery, then we are no longer slaves (unless we give ourselves to Christ, like I was saying earlier).
Finally, I would like to add that God doesn't show favoritism. He didn't choose only certain people to be "saved" from the beginning. That would be showing favoritism. We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 2:8) Sorry again for not answering your original question. I should've done that first, before just jumping in the middle of the conversation. Sorry if I offended you. Peace, brother.
To a believer this post says why are you thankful for calvinism, there is nor reason for a believer to accept calvinism, why would you be thankful for calvinism, when you have the word of God. It is pleasing to the lord to believe his word over calvinism.
You see we where never called to add to or take away from his word, but then again that is what the bible says.
Scripture does not agree with one point of calvinism.
