and thats irrefutable I tell ya!cuz I got me some preodained foreknowledge,I do,really.....got it from the early church fathers themselves.....everyone of um.......they said steve.................chosen dont mean chosen....and thats an irrefutable fact of early church history
PJ ~ I asked you a question...you have yet to state who you are dirrectin / accusin of followin Calvin...
You reply with ~ There is ( no accusation ) just as there is ( no truth in calvinism, if you follow calvin, ) you proved it yourself, where is the accusation.
This is a accusation...I dont know who proved what or who is followin some Dead Dude named Calvin...but ima jus keep on Followin the Lord Jesus while you jus keep on Beatin a Dead Dude an dragin His body around...Which GOD says dont do...Anywho...you have yer self a pleasant day...xo
Man is not spiritually dead. Paul was talking about man's physical death.
Here is a great article that lays this out .
Calvinism
I. Total Depravity
Copyright � Tim Warner - 10/2003
http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin01.html
Part of the article.
The Human Condition According to Calvinists
The Calvinist view of the human condition is one of complete and utter depravity. They do not deny that man sometimes does things that are good. However, his fallen condition makes it utterly impossible for him to live righteously. He inevitably gives in to his fallen nature inherited from Adam. Because of this, he is utterly incapable of producing what is necessary for salvation � faith. Man's apparent free will is guided by his passions, which are corrupt. Yes, he is free to choose. But, he does not have the capacity to choose what is good because the pressure from his fallen nature overpowers his reasoning abilities. Therefore, if man is to be saved, God must do everything necessary, including giving him the faith to believe, regenerating his nature so that he can believe.
Since Calvinists believe man is incapable of responding to God's offer of salvation, they presume that God enlightens only those who are elect with a supernatural understanding that is withheld from the non-elect. Without this illumination, or infusion of understanding, which God gives or withholds according to His choice, man cannot respond to God. God ultimately decides by His sovereignty whether to provide what is necessary for man to believe the Gospel. He withholds this revelation from all the non-elect, but provides it for the "elect."
Original Sin
Calvinists also teach the Roman Catholic doctrine of "Original Sin," which is an essential component of their view of the human condition. Loraine Boettner explains this belief as follows: "But when God created man a moral creature, He proceeded on a different plan than He did with the angelic order. Instead of creating all men at one time and placing them on test individually, He created one man, with a physical body, from whom the entire human race would descend, and who, because of his union with all of those who would come after him, could be appointed as the legal or federal head and representative of the entire human race. If he stood the test, he and all of his descendants, his children, would be confirmed in holiness and established in a state of perpetual creaturely bliss as were the holy angels. But if he fell, as did the other angels, he and all his posterity would be subject to eternal punishment. It was as if God said, "This time, if sin is to enter, let it enter by one man, so that redemption also can be provided by one man." ... But, tragedy of tragedies, Adam fell. And the entire human race fell representatively in him. The consequences of his sin are all comprehended under the term death, in its widest sense. It was primarily spiritual death, or separation from God, that had been threatened. Adam did not die physically until 930 years after he fell. But he was spiritually estranged from God and died spiritually the very instant that he sinned. And from that instant his life became an unceasing march to the grave. Man in this life has not gone as far in the ways of sin as have the devil and the demons, for he still receives many blessings through common grace, such as health, wealth, family and friends, the beauties of nature, and he still is surrounded with many restraining influences. But he is on his way. And if not checked, man would eventually become as totally evil as are the demons."1
***The Human Condition According to Arminians***
Sadly, Calvinists usually misrepresent the real Arminian position regarding the human condition. For example, Rev. William MacLean M.A, writes, "Arminians deny the total depravity of man, in that they hold that the will of man is free and has the ability to choose Christ and the salvation that is in Him."2 Yet, the third article of the Arminian Remonstrance states "That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his own free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good � nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through His Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in all his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God."
As is obvious, the real issue at stake between Calvinists and true Arminians is not whether man is capable of conjuring up faith, or procuring his own salvation by the power of his free will. Rather, it is whether or not God empowers all who hear the Gospel, or only the elect, to respond in faith when the Holy Spirit draws them to repentance. In other words, true Arminians believe that God's Spirit gives people the capacity to believe and exercise a truly "free will," even those who ultimately resist and reject Christ.
Original Sin
This, however, does not mean true Arminians are in full agreement with Calvinists regarding the human condition into which all are born. The issue of "original sin" is an area of some disagreement. We agree that the consequences of Adam's sin is death for all Adam's descendants. That is, all are adversely affected because of Adam's sin. But, Calvinists think it was "spiritual death" that Adam experienced, not physical death. Boettner claimed above that Adam, being the federal head of the human race, sinned for the whole race. That is, since all men were potential in Adam, we are all responsible for Adam's "original sin," and are eternally condemned because of Adam's transgression. Therefore, every baby, at the moment of birth, is guilty before God, and is condemned. Augustine went so far as to claim that all infants who died without "baptism" to remove the stain of "original sin" were damned and went to hell forever. Infants who were baptized were righteous before God until they were able to understand sin. Roman Catholics continued to teach the Augustinian view of "original sin" with infant baptism being the cure. The Reformed churches also continue to practice infant baptism, despite the complete lack of biblical precedent.
Most Evangelicals do not realize the idea of the guilt of Adam's "original sin" being common to all was not held by the early Church prior to the fourth century. The earliest church taught that physical death of Adam and all his descendants was the result of Adam's sin. Augustine, the real father of Calvinism, taught "spiritual death" and the perpetual guilt of Adam's sin contrary to all the Church Fathers that preceded him since the time of the Apostles. Boettner claimed that the "death" promised to Adam was not physical death, but "spiritual death." The early Church did not agree. While there were three different views regarding the "death" promised to Adam, all related to his physical death. The three views were as follows:
