in recent threads I have noticed some people tossing around scripture quotes to prove arguments and sometimes hardly anything else. I got in some cases the idea that the application of scripture is lead by a certain basic thought, and scripture is used to back this up.
It has been stated several times that the scripture was infalibe. So based on the infability of scripture people argumented with scripture quotes to back up their thoughts.
Now I wonder in which way people here believe that scripture is infallible. I wonder which kind of application of scripture people here consider right, and which kind they consider wrong.
What is the position of scripture? What is the position of exegesis? What is the position of hermeneutics for people in this form?
I want to start out giving my thoughts, mabe I add to it or make things clearer in following posts. I find that I cannot make my thoughts clear in first times, but I try to get to the point
I do have my problems ith speaking of the scripture as being infallible. After all, scripture is a thing, a book, not alive, not doing anything on its own. How can scripture than be more infallible than an orange or a hammer?
One might say: An orange does not contain thoughts, scripture does, and those thoughts can be wrong or right. So in this way scripture can be more infallible than a hammer. A hammer contains no thoughts.
I am still not convinced, as the thoughts are not in the text we read, but the text constitutes those thoughts in our brains. Maybe it's not even the text alone but also other things that we have experienced etc. Like in the morning I have read about big companies firing workers and raising managment payments at the same time, so this causes certain thoughts when reading about the rich having a hard time getting into heaven etc.
A text itself does not do anything, it does not contain anything, it does not tell anything on its own. Take a text in a foreign language you don't know. It will tel you nothing. Or will it? Maybe you get some thoughts looking at the strange signs and symbols of a strange language, completely unrelated to the text itself but at the same time they were started by you looking at the text...
What I want to say is that I think you always need somebody alive to have thoughts, a nonliving thing does not think and cannot contain thoughts. A dead thing can not even make thoughts for others, it is always somebody living who has thoughts and makes thoughts, produces them, based on things we see, hear, read, smell, remember, whatever.
So this is also true for the bible, if we can say that the bible is a dead thing. I do think that the bible is dead. It is not infallible, as a dead thing does not fit into categories as fallibility or infallibility. The bible is not God, because God consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and those are alive. Bible is not human, and not animal, not even plant. Not alive.
Everything we get from the bible is what we get from it by reading it ourselves, so all action comes either from us (as we are alive) or from somebody else, also alive, like the Holy Spirit, or simply somebody who explains things to us or tells us how he or she sees it. This person can him- or herself be guided by the Hoy Spirit. Or possibly aso by Satan, who knows...?
So I read the bible mysef, wehn I read it, and I tend not to think of it as a set of rules, because wide parts of the bible are not rules, but stories told. There are letters, there are arguments of every kind in scripture. Some things are said without being in the focus, others are in focus. I try to find out what the author of a biblical text wanted to say by writing it, or what a redactor wanted to say, as many biblical texts are the result of a redaction that changed the original ideas of different authors, for example the story of the great flood compared to the epic of Gilgamesh...
Reading the bibe and getting ideas about what authors and redactors might have said alone brings me nothing. This is only exegesis. It is important to what extent and for what I use the findings of bible lecture, so to say: What is my target. Aso the question what do I presume before, like what I wrote above...
I can find myself hermeneutics, there are various on the market, even when you reduce your search to theology or even prtestant theology.
But I still think, this is not enough: I myself cannot get anything infallible out of the bible, as whatever I get from it is what I made of it, as stated above. And I am falible, so whatever I get out of the bible myself is fallible, and this is true for every other person, however pious he or she might be, for nobody can get rid of his or her carnal mind.
It is my strong believe, that we need necessaryly the Holy Spirit to get anything good from the bible. If we try to get something from it without the Holy Spirit we can only get false thoughts in the end. And we cannot control the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit is God and God cannot be and will not be controlled by men.
This is why I am doubtful about quoting scripture in postings. I do so myself, and I wonder hwo much of it is good. I think it can ony be okay if there was some personal revelation about that passage, so we are only repeating what God told us personally through this piece of scripture.
So I read my scripture and hope for the Lord to open it to me. At some pieces He did, with most He didn't, and many are connected with passages where He spoke to me.
This is why I hardly back up my words on here with scripture (this and being lazy searching and not knowing so much of it by heart as others do).
Taking some scripture that gets in my line of thoughts can be supporting what I think, but also be meant in a different way. Without revelation from God, how can I know? So if I cannot know, how can I bring it forth here on the forums?
So I rather want to speak of what I was told by the Lord, or maybe what I think I was told. I want to speak about what I experienced in the Spirit, and I am also looking for people sharing their thoughts with me. Because there is something I have not spoke about yet:
What if we are mislead, how can we know?
Actually know, like knowing 2+2=4 we can never do (if you guys know the movie Matrix you know the thought that we can not know anything for sure).
But we are all followers of Christ, and we are told to be in contact, to meet for service and help one another, have love for one another. So we also speak about our personal revelations, and if there are others with the same revelation this is a hint, or if there are some who have a revelation that tells us differently. And finally there is always scripture to be read by us, waiting for further revelation, for furtherly being touched by Him. He will correct us if we go wrong one way or another. And our sisters and brothers can give us hints, hopefully without condemning (as this does only drive poeple further apart from one another, and this is a result ony Satan can like, that people are far away from one another).
So what do you guys think about scripture not being arguments for debate, but content to be spoken about? About the Holy Spirit not being the researched object of discussion (and thus a to-be-controlled-by-men-object) but being a sought but uncontrollable base for ourselves.
Tell me about your thoughts, and God bless you all.
It's definitely true that people get their own interpretations out of the bible and misuse them....but that doesn't make the bible untrue or fallible. What people choose to see in the bible is their own choice. Some might not agree with me, but I believe if you remove pride and opinion and let the bible interpret itself you come out with a much clearer picture. I believe that is the only way to study the bible....but you really have to search out the truth. Personally...I think God made it hard to find on purpose. Everything is a test, everything about the bible is to help build your character...and everything in the bible is true, whether someone looks for it or not. Seems to be a trend to make the bible irrelevant though, but people need something to stand on...something to build their "houses/characters" on...and that thing is Jesus/The Rock/The Word.
1. Pe 1,23: What makes you think "word of God" refers to the book of the bible and not to Jesus Christ of which the whole Paragraph speaks?
Heb 4,2 eems to be on my side, as it states that hearing the preaching does not mean anything. So it doesn't depen on the bible whether you believe or not. It i not the bibe doing a thing.
@GodsJude:
*Yes !!! Open up a persons perception, understandin an show the way ta Salvation and unto our Lord Jesus the Christ.An with the Holy Spirit guiding us will Convict us of our Sins, And cause us ta Repent�Fall down upon our knees an Worship the LORD an name above all names�Jesus/Yeshua�
May I ask back: Isn't that rather the Holy Spirit doing al this and not the written letters in the bible? You also speak of a person's perception, so it depends a bit on the perception (which is in my thoughts guided by the Holy Spirit i there is fruit to come from bibe lecture). So the bible itself would still do nothing.
*GOD/Jesus the Christ/Holy Spirit�are all present in the Bible�
What do you mean by "present"? I agree that they all are named in the bible, as is pharao, David, the Antichrist, the disciples...
*GOD the father is in heaven�Jesus the Christ is at His side this very moment�an the Holy Spirit�well...Jesus the Christ sent ta be our Helper after he left this earthly plane an Acsended ta the Father�
I agree 100%.
*The only difference is�The Bible an the Holy Spirit are Here�Now in this Moment in this World an in the Physical and Spiritual�.Jesus the Christ is beside Father GOD in Heaven an not Here�Now in this very Moment in this World in the Physical / Flesh�BUT...He is here in the Spiritual with the Holy Spirit�.
Here you bring in the Bibe without talking much about it. The bible is here, right, but so are many other things: Cars, houses, spacecrafts... I don't want to make fun of it, just show my problems understanding. The Trinity is God, no problem with this, we agree on that. The Holy Spirit is with us and our Helper, absolutely agree. But what is the bible's role? Is it our helper? is it someone that actually does something for our benefit? Or is it a too, used by the Holy Spirit but possibly also misused by the enemy to decieve us? And if it is used to decive us, in which way? How do we tell the difference? Some people I'e mt tend to say: If you use scientific methods to understand the texts, that is deception by Satan. f you just read and do what is wrtten there, this was Gd's way. But I doubt this, because I have seen people use the scientific method in love of God and I've seen people full of hate reading the bibe as a lawbook rather than like a piece of art and take everything (they want) literally and condemn everybody who does not agree with them in every point. This is my basic question: How do we use the bible? How do we see the bible? What is the bible? Is it God? Is it a book? Is t a tool?
Maybe my question becomes clearer now. Sorry for writing so long and complicated and not get to the point immediately. Aftr all, English is not my mother tungue.
@Ella:
*"I do think that the Bible is dead," It is not infallible, and the Bible is not God, and not alive."
How can you say these things if you say you're are a Born again Christinas who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, the power of His blood shed on the cross for the remission of OUR sins, through His suffering death.
Thank you for the direct question, I will give you a direct answer. Because I bilieve in the Lord our God who died for our sins on the cross I can say the bible is a book and not alive. I know that there is ony one God to worship, and He is the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The bible is not part of the Trinity, so the bible is not God, so the bible is not to be worshipped. Calling the bible, a thing made by men (whatever inspiration of God stands behind it) infallible is for me going in the direction of blasphemiy, this is why I say it is not infallible, it is not even alive. And I have never heard of a book, not even the bible, do a thing. It is ALWAYS (well, that's my thoughts but I consider them to be not too wrong) God doing something with us, not the bible. If we read the bible and come to faith, it is God, His Spirit doing this in us, not the bible, the bible is a thing, a too used by God (and it seems He uses this tool most of the time, rather than other things), but after all it is still a tool, like a hammer, and not more alive and not doing more than a hammer.
The power you speak of that the bible is fufilled with is not the bible but the Holy Spirit, and the Hoy Spirit is indeed infallible and alive, more than we can ever imagine. Calling the bible God Himself in writing aches me, as this would mean I could get a grip on God, I could take Him and put Him in my pocket, it would enable me to stuy the letters and then get control over them, knowing exactly what God wants, without ever istening to God Himself, just by reading the bible. This is like having a letter from a friend and ner speak to the fiend but examine the letter perfectly and telling then what the friend is like. Maybe not even a letter but a story or a couple of stories I've been told about my friend. The letter, the stories are not my friend. The tell of my friend, but not precisely, not in a way that I can get nothing more from talking to my friend or be with him, for the stories or even a letter from him is not alive, it won't answer me. It won't do anything, the only thing that does something is my carnal mind, it sorts the words of the letter or the story and gives it a meaning. But if my friend does not tell me how this or that is meant, or what else to take in mind when thinking about the stories and letters, I will not get through to the real meaning. This my friend telling me can be called revelation. And the stories and letters are tools to understand my friend.
I'm tryng to express my point, I hope any of this makes sense at all. All I want to say is: Isn't it blasphemy to worship the bible? Isn't it blasphemy to speak of a book as though it was God Himself? Aren't we to see beyond the book to God? Can we ever say that we got an insight into God's plans and what He considers right or wrong without it being revealed to us, and not just written in the bible? The bible is good to check a revelation to be really from God. But the bible isn't itself a reveation to us, we cannot take a sentence and say: This is the will of the Lord, unless He told us, not only through letters but directly, that this was true.
*You know why?... because everything I learned in seminary, and everything you and anyone who has attended college in Biblical Studies ot thoelogy, are taught how to study scriptures and study the Bible the way MAN says you are to study it. I have reject such, and had much problems with profs in a few classes.
I know about the problem in seminaries. I know about unbeieving profs, but I also know about frightful students who would rather stick to what they considered true than open their minds and seek to understand other ways, while at the same time praying to God to not be lost. I try this way, maybe also because I am a bit more liberal than others. All those methods make sense, but we have to be careful to know what they will give us as new insight and what not. These methods cannot get the Holy Spirit under our control, as well as literal understanding of the bible can do, for the Spirit is more than us, we are not God. But if you ask me, the Spirit can go along with scientific method as well as with reading the bible and thinking about it without textual criticism, redactional critizism and such (I really have no idea how to call all those methods in English, you'll know what I mean).
*I depned totaly on the Holy Spirit to interpret for me, and then I check commentaries of those trusted scholars I find who also rely on The Holy Spirit, to see if what I think the scriptures are saying, to compare and contrast, what I get out of the scriptures. If what they get out of the scriptures is equal to what I get, then I know I'm on the right path.
So do I, that is, I seek to do so. Maybe I make a broader use of commentaries, as I have no problem hecking commentaries that have a whole different point of view, this can lead to new insights as well. After all, the Holy Spirit can use anything and Paul told us to check everything and keep what is good. This is what I try to do. So I would not say the bible is not true at all. But it is not true on the superficial part. I have no problems with contradiction in the text of the bible, I look for the deeper meaning. In doing that I am a bit freer from the actual text, as said, I try to focus on the meaning, and as the bible has been written over hundrets of years, the guys who actually wrote down things used different ways to express what they mean. Culture hanged, just try to think back several hundret years and think how poeple back then expressed their thoughts and how people do it today. I would say: The message cntained in the bible is true, the gospel is true, but I would not say that the text of the bibe is historicaly accurateon its surface. And it needn't be. I do not think it was ever the idea to have a historically correct book there, it was meant to be true in its message, an it is.
Like Shakespeare also didn't write historically correct dramas, but tried to get a message through (though I doubt his message being anywhere near the truth of the messge of the bible). But we can get through to the message only with the Spirit. We can understand it only with the Spirit. If we are not guided by the Spirit we find all kinds of negative things in the bible: Genocide, murder, rape, nationaism, legalism... Only if the Spirit is with us the message can be understood by us...
Do I repeat myself?
*But when a person only rely on what they get out of the scriptures, this is when false teachings and doctrine come into place.
That's what I mean. But how can you see the difference? I think: We cannot see it in any way, as we cannot see in people's hearts on what they rely. But I want to call out to people to not worship the bible, ot worship what God created, but worship the creator who will help us understand the message of the bible.
*God nor His Holy word are NOT to be analytically interpreted, (John chapter 14, Jesus tells us the Holy Spirit of God will lead us into undersatnd His truth
Why woud the Holy Spirit not lead us into understanding while we analyse? Why only if we read it superficially? You can analyse the bibe and still seek the Spirit and pray to open it to you, and you can analyse and think by this you get everything there is. But the same is true for just readig the bible: You can read it humbly and seeking God, and you can read it trying to master it and have all in your hands about scriptre to use it your way. Analysing is not the bad thing, trying to use the bible as a too to master God and thus trying t be God yourself and subdue the real God to yourself, that is the bad thing, and it is the priginal sin that we all suffer from.
I think this is it what caused divisions in the church, that some tried to get control over God. But no one is free of it and no one knows the whole truth. There are true believing Catholics and Baptists that blaspheme, and vice versa. There are Reformed and Lutheran Christians that disagree only because Zwingli and Luther had a persona problem with one another back then, there are many wordy issues playing roles in the visible churches, but nonetheless, al believers are on in the invisibe one church which is the body of Christ.
*Try just reading the word and relax and allow the Holy Spirit to bring you into an understanding. But first you must BELEIEVE that the Bible is God speaking and that it is ALIVE AND A BURNING FIRE.
You'll be surprised, that's what I do at times. Well, not exactly, as I think of the PSirit as alive and a burning fire (cf. Pentecoast ;)), but what you mean with relax and read and allow the Holy Spirit to bring undrstanding. And sometimes I want to know more when a passage gets my interest, then I translate a passage for myself, look up what different handscripts contain as text, take a look at the contemporal condition and such, in short, all that one does when analysing scientifically. I do not do this because I think I can get it by my own efforts, but I want to get closer to what God wanted to tell us. Sometimes I sense the Holy Spirit in that process, opening up some things for me. Sometimes not. As said, I cannot control Him, but I am glad whenever He speaks to me.
@SOS:
I agree with you tht the bible contains the truth. But I would not say that this is open to everybody reading the bible without the Holy Spirit explaining it (or a person that in n the Spirit explaining it like in Acta, the story with the guy from Ethiopia).
*My eyes can be opened by a teacher or a preacher.
That's what I meant.
*Quoting bible verses is not always sufficient for me. I must feel the words, they must become alive to me. One should be able to explain what the words mean (and what not!)
Amen to that!
Finally I can find no difference between what you write and what I think. I like how yo can express it in so few words...
@Mark:
I have my doubts about being abe to find the truth in the bible ourselves, or that it is our choice, but this might by the reformed background of my church that influenced me...
I am not trying to make the bible irrelevant (I am not sure if you wanted to say this), I want to give it its place below God and not beside Him. You are right that poeple need something to stand on, but why stand on the bible if we have Christ as our foundation? Yea, you mention Christ, too, but still like many others you mix up Christ and the bible. I know that there is John 1 where Christ is called the word (logos) of God, but I wonder if "word" ever refers to scripture in the bibe, so I wonder if one can so easily mix those things together. I mean: The bible didn't die on the cross and resurrect the 3rd day, right? Sorry to repeat this again and again, but this is a vital point for me, that Christ is God and the bible is not.
How do we see the bible? With the eyes/heart of a child with the help of the Holy Spirit...
What is the bible? The Livin Word of GOD...
Is it God? No ! It is of GOD, by GOD an for GOD's purpose an Glory...
Is it a book? Yes ! A book of history an knowledge an a how to live guide. To every question concernin anythin an everythin...the Answer is in the Bible...Jesus is that Answer...Thank you Father !!!!...
Is it a tool? Yes ! I suggest usein this tool by readin, studyin, an applyin what you learn in your everyday life...xo
Thank you for your words. I think we perfectly understand eachother. Just one more thought: I would say the bible is not a book but a vast library...:winksmile::winksmile:
GodsJude
Like Shaky the Spear said: Hark fair Juliet speak!!
You have a truly blessed heart. Wisdom and passion in harmony.:bow::bow:
How else would you know Jesus except through the bible? I don't know...I shouldn't have implied you were trying to make the bible irrelevant, but it seems like you're saying that it's pointless for us to try and understand it...which is close to the same thing. I'm not attacking you or anything...I promise...just talking about it. The bible is the only way we know God and His will. We can't even trust visions/dreams/prophets without comparing what they say to the bible....and while someone may be misinterpreting the bible, they should also be humble enough to keep searching and be willing to change when they find they were wrong. I'm just saying that it's not the bible that's fallible or hard to understand...it's us, we're the problem, but we have to keep searching for the truth. If we're diligent in our search with that goal in mind...then I think God reveals what He wants us to know eventually. I guess my point is...don't give up. I just think that the bible is the only way to know God. Someone can claim to have a message from God, but how would you know it's the truth? Someone can claim to be a prophet, but how do you know they aren't false? An angel could appear to you and tell you some amazing super-natural stuff....but how would you know it's an angel from God? While some people could misinterpret the bible and mistakenly label someone's message from God as false...the alternative...having nothing to compare truth with, would leave us tossed about in every direction. Study God's word for yourself....or I guarantee you will be led astray. And the trick is, study the bible as well as you can. It's not the knowledge you gain, even though that helps...it's your attitude. The attitude to be humble enough to be ready to change if God gives you a new piece to the puzzle that fits perfectly where you had ignorantly/naively tried to force a piece in. NEVER assume you know everything, or you have the wrong attitude....by far. Not saying you do that...I just know some people that do.
Careful. I do belive in the word of God which is Jesus Christ. I do not believe in the bible, for the bible is not God.
I don't write this here just to make my point, I want to hear other's opinions and reasons, I want to talk with people and not just get my point through.
@GodsJude:
I agree with all you said axecpt for the bible being te living word of God. I wonder where al you guy have this from, as this sentence is repeated several times. I entered it by google and it lead me to Hebr 4:12.
Actually, Hebr 4:12 speaks of the word of God being living etc. Some translations express differently what is said. So Weymouth New Testament speaks of the message of God (which I find a doubtful translation) and Young's literal translation speaks of the reckoning of God, which seems to make more sense than message.
(I gt an overview of English transations here http://bible.cc/hebrews/4-12.htm)
This is why I asked about scirpture passages that refer to scripture speaking of the word of God.
I am not really sure what exactly Hebrews 4 is refering to. Scripture? I wonder why then it speaks of "word of God" and not scripture. Pus: Scripture is not alked about before, only things God has said that are written down in scripture, which woudn't be scripture as a whole. Is that splitting hairs?
When I read "word of God" I hardly ever think "scripture" but rather "Jesus" (cf. John 1). So I wonder it it could make sense here:
Hebrews 4 speaks of the word of God being a discerner of the thoughts of the hearts... The Luther translation we use in Germany speaks also of a judge rather than a discerner, and so do some English transations (New American Standard Bible, International Standard Version, GOD'S WORD Translation) of which I have no idea how well accepted they are.
The Greek text speaks of a kritikos, someone who does critizism, that is someone who weights things.
I can remember Jesus as being the judge on judgment day, but when it is only about discerning our thoughts, a written text could also be meant, or just some quotes of God that are contained in the bible. The word of God being a sword dividing things that usually belong together also make me think of what Jesus says in Mt 10,34f:
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
These are all just thoughts that come to my mind, but they add to my doubt about the bibe being alive and the word of God.
But there is also Rev 1,16 and 2,12, both speaking of a two edged sword. One time it goes out of the father's mouth, one time Christ has it.
So this adds to the confusion. In Rev 2,12 Christ is determined by the description: He who has the two edged sword. So having this two-edged sword, which is in Hebrews 4 a description for the word of God can only refer to Christ, or it would be incomprahensible. If everybody who owns a copy of the bible can be "he who has the two-edged sword", the congregation in Pergamon would not know who sent the letter, just that it would be someone who owns a copy of the bible. But then again, why does it say "He, who has" and not "one, who has". It seems there is only one person having the two-edged sword...
But maybe the sword is here just a sword and has nothing to do with Hebrews 4. But then it woud make even less sense, wouldn't it? Or is the two-edged sword something outstanding, like a symbol for the emperor or such? I think to remember that every Roman soldier had a two-edged sword... I might be wrong here though...
Sorry for getting into this again and again. This is a question that I am thinking about these days. I do not want to reduce the meaning of the bible, but I also do not want to reduce the importance of God for the sake of the bible. And because many Christians give higher importance to the bible's text surface than I do, I keep writing long posts here. So please don't be angry with me.
You are believe or you don't, you words continually say you do not believe. The bible encourages us to believe, or accept the word as truth, by your action you approach God with your mind or reasoning faculties.
Now I am not trying to give you a hard time, just responding to what you say.
Your words express unbelief, you can choose to believe, but this is with the heart man believeth, not the mind
You are very right, it's a library, ad for the time it wa swritten I guess it was really a vast ibrary. Nowadays most libraries have a bigger uantity of books I guess...
I am also not too surprised about us understanding one another so good. After all, we're from the same area on earth, and maybe grew up in similar cultures...
@Mark:
My point is not at all to say that trying to understand the bible was pointless, rather the pure opposite. What can we do to get closer to God? Pray and read the bible (and maybe somethign I forgot about right now but I think those are most important).
My point is, that by reading and getting an understanding of the bible (whatever that might be) we cannot presume that we have God in our pockets by then, but I feel many people do so and defend this way of thinking by saying the bible was infallible and that one has to take it literally. Reading the bible, studying it (with scientific or other methods) is a way to seek the Lord. But having been seeking quite a while doesn't mean that one has found Him already. So bible passages can hardly be a proof, rather a hint for a point of view. The proof you get when God speaks to you directly. He hardly ever spoke to groups of people recently, rather on an individual base, but, maybe I just hven't heard about Him speaing to groups again... so the proof is something very personal.
After all, I cannot proof scripture, only God can. But I went to another issue again.
You are right: How can we know about Jesus except through the bible? Well, I knew about Him before I read the bible, because I was told about Him by my mom and grandmas, in kindergarten and school (we have religious education in German schools). Where did my teachers and family hear about Jesus? Well, by reading (and studying) the bible and by hearing from their family, pastors ans teachers, so I think there are several lines... The bible has in this case the role of a quality control system. You cannot make up too many new stories about Jesus, because there is a certain set of stories in the bible and all beyond is doubtful. But you also cannot just go and reinterpret the bible by understanding words in different ways (this happens when there is a shift in culture or some shift in public thiniking as in times of the enlightenment), because there is still the traditions, the stories told about Jesus in the homes of people. So both keep one another in balance. Real clever system God build there...
By the way, you can relax, I do not feel attacked at all. You'd have to try harder for that *grin*. You are right that we have to prove our visions/dreams etc with the bible. But why would there be dreams, prophets etc if all was easily found in the bible? Sometimes we just do not understand what scripture says. I find it problematic to go and tell things which I do not yet understand to be true and every Christian having to obey this now. Before I understood why Christ had to die for my sins, how coud I have stated that He did? How coul I have asked others to believe the same? I have a feeling like some people use scripture to smash others, like taking certain rules and whatnot and use them without love to smash others and make them feel bad. This is what I don't like. I wonder if they have had the Spirit talk to them about it, but maybe this is only me being stubborn...
You are right saying that it is not the bible being fallible, it's us. That'swhat I wanted to say when I said the bibe doesn't fit in categories like falability or infallability. That's what I mean by the bibe being a thing as in opposite to us being living people. We are falibe and we use the bibe as a tool sometimes in fallible ways, the bible won't stop us doing so, only the Spirit.
You are right about false prophets being checked by the bible, but on the other hand you can also have misinterpretations of the bible and need a way to check them for their being in accordance with God, no? So we also need God's revelation as well, an I agree with you that most of it has to do with having a humble attitude. I cannot know whether I am 100% right, that is why I seek to speak with my fellow sisters and brothers, this is why I post here. We have the bibe, we have the church as the body of Christ which is all of us together, and as we are all Christians and touched by the Holy Spirit we can also speak about our faith and say how we see things. Because other than the bible I believe in the church (otherwise I would be lying praying the apostle's creed). But that woul be a whole different issue again...
So, I use my scientific methods I learned at university, not to gain knowledge (well, also for that because I like to gain knowledge) but in the first place to have it help me understanding. I know I can never assume to know everyhing, I'm only human, but I also won't shut up about things that I am not sure about or wonder why others have different thoughts. I talk about them, this is why we have fellowship in the church, and this is why I see it as a bad thing when people seperate from other Christians claiming to be seperate from the "world". Okay, again another issue...
@PhillipJohn: Were did I say I don't believe in God? I don't think you give me a hard time, I just have the feeling you don't understand what I want to say. Maybe my messages are too long, I wish I could express my thoughts in such short ways as you do. Why do my words express ubelieve? Unbelieve in a book, okay, I have no problem with this. I do not believe in the bible, I believe in the Father, Son and holy Spirit, the one holy worldwide apostolic church, community of Saints (which are us believers), forgivenes of sins, resurrection of the flesh and eternal life. If this is not enough for you and you think that I have to believe in the bibe added to this in order to be a Christian, I am afraid I do not see why I should do so. The bible is a tool, nothing else, it's used by the Holy Spirit for the most noble reasons, but it is not something to believe in. It is something I can hold in my hands, something that I can get control of, o it cannot be greater than I am. Greater than me is God who speaks through the bible using it as a tool, but not the bible itself. Did Noah believe in the water after God used it as a tool? Or did he believe in the rainbow? I hope you do not feel offended by hat I write, I just want you to understand me the way I mean it. AFter all, I cannot make you agree with me, but I wish we could have fellowship in God, being part of the Una Sancta with Christ as our head.
